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bison
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 20-Jan-2019 23:43:30
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Elite Member |
Joined: 18-Dec-2007 Posts: 2112
From: N-Space | | |
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| @Skateman
Quote:
This leaves us with a very special and expensive machine running Linux. |
It would be an attractive option for those of us who are already running Linux. If it ran AmigaOS (or MorphOS) , then that would be a bonus.
The X5000, on the other hand, is not a particularly good Linux system. It's OK, but it's basically a very special and expensive machine running AmigaOS 4.
Last edited by bison on 20-Jan-2019 at 11:46 PM.
_________________ "Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner |
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ne_one
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 1:45:01
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Cult Member |
Joined: 13-Jun-2005 Posts: 905
From: Unknown | | |
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| @billt
I'm referring to the claim that Hyperion has a business plan. |
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apsturk
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 2:38:05
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Regular Member |
Joined: 6-Mar-2015 Posts: 108
From: Oswego, NY USA | | |
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| The BlackBird SHOULD BE the High end for AmigaOS4.1 for many reasons many that I will not go into here.
This MUST happen
The total cost of this computer would be around $1570. USD(from Amiga On The Lake for ..ex) and is MUCH more powerful and modern in EVERY way that anything from A-EON to date, by far!!!
PCIe 4 (with full 16x lane support) USB 3 Modern supported Distros of Linux And much more!!!
This person is a BIG supporter of this idea!!!! for both MorphOS & AmigaOS4.1
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hth313
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 3:02:55
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Regular Member |
Joined: 29-May-2018 Posts: 159
From: Delta, Canada | | |
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| @Signal
I had an x86 free house from start (1982) until around 2012, that is 30 years.
Sigh, then I got a netbook and later a Mac, those were the good old days... In many ways I envy you.
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tlosm
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 7:59:53
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2012 Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land | | |
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| porting will need "only" for amigaboot.of (from pegasos2) to Power9 openfirmware, the kernel and specific device ... the other system parts are totally istructions compatible .
_________________ I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB; MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz; #nomorea-eoninmyhome |
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billt
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 14:36:04
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| @ne_one
I was curious if the board had started shipping yet, as I preordered one but have not heard anything about when to expect it. _________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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Signal
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 15:07:55
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Cult Member |
Joined: 1-Jun-2013 Posts: 664
From: USA | | |
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| @billt
According to RCS Blackbird page 'Expected to ship late Q1 2019'. I won't have enough cash before midsummer, but I'm working on it. _________________ Tinkering with computers. |
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TRIPOS
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 17:52:33
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Apr-2014 Posts: 1204
From: Unknown | | |
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| What is it with the AmigaOne community's fetish of ridiculously priced hardware?
$1,600+ for just the bare board+cpu with cooling and mounting tool, single stick 16BG memory, no HDD, no GFX card, no case, no nothing! Easily $2,000+ without adding any exceptional peripherals, which honestly is really expensive for a single-core 2GB system that would also leave that single core 99% unsaturated and without being able to benefit from its full potential the way it was meant to. Crippled and overpriced. OTOH - isn't that what AmigaOne has stood for, like forever? |
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pavlor
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 18:43:55
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Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
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| @TRIPOS
As you wrote, that would be an ideal AmigaOne. |
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Skateman
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 21-Jan-2019 18:54:29
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Regular Member |
Joined: 2-Nov-2017 Posts: 160
From: Netherlands | | |
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| @bison
I never said its not an interesting system. And i use Linux a lot at work.
You are right regarding the X5000. Its not the best linux system, but it runs linux and it's usable. But most important its running OS4.1 so at this point, more valuable than a Talos system.
I would be very pleased if OS4.1 would be ported to the Talos, and will order one without doubt.
_________________ AmigaOne X5000 -> 2GHz / 16GB RAM / Radeon R7 250 / M-Audio 5.1 -> AmigaOS 4.1 FE / Ubuntu Linux Amiga 1200 -> Recapped / 68ec020 ACA 1221ec / CF HDD / RetroNET connected to the world |
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ne_one
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 0:12:06
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Cult Member |
Joined: 13-Jun-2005 Posts: 905
From: Unknown | | |
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| @apsturk
Quote:
The BlackBird SHOULD BE the High end for AmigaOS4.1... This person is a BIG supporter of this idea!!!! for both MorphOS & AmigaOS4.1 |
Unfortunately, this type of effort would have lots of enthusiasm and limited direction.
Hyperion is holding all of the cards and they insist on playing 52 Pickup.
Meanwhile, A-EON appears to have Exec SG up its sleeve.
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Lou
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 4:05:40
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Elite Member |
Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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| Meanwhile I paid $170 for my MSI Performance Gaming AMD X470 and another $350 for my Ryzen 2700X with 8 cores and 16 threads....
Meh it's a little cheaper now: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B428M7F Last edited by Lou on 22-Jan-2019 at 04:08 AM.
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clusteruk
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 16:25:14
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Super Member |
Joined: 20-Nov-2008 Posts: 1544
From: Marston Moretaine, England | | |
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| @Fl@sh
Would it be OK to mention that it looks like it will also fit my new case unlike the X5000, which is very sad but I can only fit MiniITX and MicroATX boards
_________________ Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/ |
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toRus
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 19:14:13
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 210
From: Unknown | | |
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| How about AmigaOS 4.1.3 for it ?
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toRus
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 19:20:48
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 210
From: Unknown | | |
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ferrels
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 21:37:48
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Cult Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @ne_one
Quote:
I'm referring to the claim that Hyperion has a business plan. |
Exactly! All Hyperion has is a litigation plan. There hasn't been any real innovation in regards of OS4 since Hyperion released it some 16 years ago. Hyperion is unable to innovate so they simply litigate. |
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matthey
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 21:41:09
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Super Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2007 Posts: 1968
From: Kansas | | |
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| Quote:
Lou wrote: Meanwhile I paid $170 for my MSI Performance Gaming AMD X470 and another $350 for my Ryzen 2700X with 8 cores and 16 threads....
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Let's do a CPU comparison.
AMD Ryzen 7 2700X 8 cores/16 threads Max 4.3 GHz 20 MiB combined cache $308.99 with free shipping and cooler
AMD Ryzen 7 2700 8 cores/16 threads Max 4.1 GHz 20 MiB combined cache $259.99 with free shipping and cooler
AMD Ryzen 5 2600 6 cores/12 threads Max 3.9 GHz 19 MiB combined cache $164.99 with free shipping and cooler
IBM POWER9 CPU (8 core) 8 cores/32 threads Max 3.8 GHz 84 MiB combined cache $595.00 ($75-$110 more for cooler)
IBM POWER9 CPU (4 core) 4 cores/16 threads Max 3.8 GHz 42 MiB combined cache $375.00 ($75-$110 more for cooler)
POWER9 gives more caches instead of cores for the money. Why? This is likely to improve the thread performance and energy efficiency when all threads are busy in a server environment. More threads are likely to slow each thread even as total performance and performance/W improves. A PC would often rather have more cores available (one thread/core gives the shortest execution time) because it is rare to use all threads. From data I have seen, x86_64 CPUs start with better single core performance per clock than POWER CPUs although this requires the data to be in cache (POWER and x86_64 are not cache misers). The x86_64 CPUs are likely to have better performance for games and light to moderate application use. Economies of scale for the x86_64 CPUs further erode the value of the POWER9 CPUs for a PC.
I found someone else who estimated the cost for a complete Blackbird system at $1967.52.
https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/hardware/motherboards-chipsets/1061036-it-looks-like-the-raptor-blackbird-open-source-motherboard-will-sell-for-just-under-900?p=1061081#post1061081
He did find cheaper ram for 2x8 GiB DIMMs at $205.44 which may provide better performance too. I noticed the 8 core Blackbird bundle comes with the $110 (heatsink assembly) cooler too.
https://raptorcs.com/content/BK1B02/intro.html
Basic Blackbird Bundle (8-Core CPU) $1,524.99 3U Heatsink Assembly for POWER9 CPUs free ($110.00 value) 16 GiB DDR4 ECC Registered RAM (2x 8 GiB) $205.14 ========================================= Ready for use motherboard Total: $1730.13
AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition $35.00 gfx card $75.00 case and power supply $75.00 ========================= AmigaOS 4 working system Total: $1915.13 (drives, cables, keyboard, mouse, etc. not included)
The 8 core POWER system probably has better value than the 4 core POWER system but is not competitive in the PC market. AmigaOS 4.1 lack of SMP and 64 bit support further decreases the value for this target.
I would like to re-examine the economics of making AmigaOS 4.1 available for the POWER9. I don't expect POWER Amigas to be a big seller in the $1500+ U.S. price range. Let's say Amiga users buy 1000 POWER systems and copies of AmigaOS 4.1 for POWER. At $35, that is $35,000 in sales which might be profitable if a programmer could get AmigaOS 4.1 running on POWER in a few months. This does not include upgrades to SMP or 64 bit which would break the budget. From a business perspective, this is probably not financially worthwhile considering the risk reward at a selling cost of $35. Doubling the price of AmigaOS 4.1 to a more feasible $70 would not double the sales dollars as the number of purchases would drop. This is one of the problems Hyperion faces. They need a larger market to be profitable. If the @Amigadocuments rumor was true, Hyperion may have had sales of as little as $24,000 U.S. in 2017 while the larger 68k Amiga market (AmigaOS 3.1.4) generates at least $240,000/year. Businesses should rotate away from less profitable products and into more profitable ones unless the reason for product under performance is cyclical (which I do not believe is the case for PPC). While the POWER market is unknown for the Amiga, it is likely to be more niche than PPC and unlikely to provide enough revenue for a business to survive.
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Lou
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 21:49:27
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Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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matthey
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 22-Jan-2019 23:24:48
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Super Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2007 Posts: 1968
From: Kansas | | |
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| Quote:
Lou wrote: So you're saying the blackbird is a server cpu? So...what good is that in Amiga-land?
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The POWER9 CPU is designed for servers but was created to be scalable down to 4 cores in the hopes of finding other markets like workstations, niche PCs and maybe even high end embedded to improve the economies of scale. It was a good idea but may not be enough to keep the expensive POWER line going. It looks like POWER is winning at performance/W for servers but have high up front costs. There isn't anything particularly good about POWER for the Amiga other than it being PPC compatible (including big endian compatible) and more open than most other CPU lines.
Quote:
By the way, AMD does make server cpus. They are the EPYC line. They up the cores and the cache and lower the clockspeed to save power.
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Yes, lowering the clock speed and increasing the caches to improve multi-threading efficiency is common for server CPUs (more energy efficient when all threads of a core are active but may be less energy efficient otherwise as the unused caches draw power).
The following are some interesting benchmarking articles with the POWER9.
Raptor Talos II POWER9 Benchmarks Against AMD Threadripper & Intel Core i9 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-threadripper-core9&num=1
POWER9 Benchmarks vs. Intel Xeon vs. AMD EPYC Performance On Debian Linux https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-epyc-xeon&num=1
The Performance Impact Of Spectre Mitigation On POWER9 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-spectre-benchmarks&num=1
Last edited by matthey on 23-Jan-2019 at 12:39 AM. Last edited by matthey on 22-Jan-2019 at 11:46 PM.
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RodTerl
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Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!! Posted on 23-Jan-2019 0:54:23
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Cult Member |
Joined: 6-Sep-2004 Posts: 589
From: Rossendale | | |
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