Quote:

pavlor wrote: That would be around 8000 copies sold (with the most conservative estimate). Sounds quite reasonable.

Quote:

ferrels wrote: You must be joking because there aren't that many active classic Amiga users left on the planet, let alone ones who are going to buy copies of OS 3.1.4 annually.

Some users bought multiple copies for multiple Amiga computers since AmigaOS 3.1.4 was only packaged for one Amiga computer. There are many different 68k Amiga users which can use the upgrade including UAE users, original hardware users and FPGA hardware users. Supposedly, there are over 4000 Vampire units sold. UAE users are probably the largest group but I don't know of any data on how many. There are probably even a few thousand users using the original hardware. I'm a little surprised to hear 8000 copies sold already but I don't think it is far fetched. The PPC factions have been underestimating the interest in the 68k and size of the 68k market for some time. Also, many 68k users, like me, have not bought AmigaOS 3.1.4 for various reasons.

Quote:

The assertion that Hyperion will sell enough copies annually to support an annual revenue stream in excess of $240K is absurd.

Not likely to be sustainable, especially if Hyperion doesn't pay their programmers or license their products.

Last edited by matthey on 22-Jan-2019 at 10:34 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

Some users bought multiple copies for multiple Amiga computers since AmigaOS 3.1.4 was only packaged for one Amiga computer. There are many different 68k Amiga users which can use the upgrade including UAE users, original hardware users and FPGA hardware users. Supposedly, there are over 4000 Vampire units sold. UAE users are probably the largest group but I don't know of any data on how many. There are probably even a few thousand users using the original hardware. I'm a little surprised to hear 8000 copies sold already but I don't think it is far fetched. The PPC factions have been underestimating the interest in the 68k and size of the 68k market for some time. Also, many 68k users, like me, have not bought AmigaOS 3.1.4 for various reasons.

Yes, there are probably about 50 die-hard users who have bought multiple copies for their Amigas, but certainly no higher than in the low triple-digits at best. There also hasn't been any real resurgence in 68K computing to speak of, even with the Vampire. Vampire users are staying away from Hyperion and using CoffinOS instead, and I don't blame them. Once again, I think you're being overly optimistic with your estimate that there are several thousand active 68K users, even when factoring in those who are using WinUAE or one of its variants. I have an accelerated A1200 and I also have WinUAE. Both configurations get fired up about once every 18 months and then it's back to the closet with them. I'll buy a stand-alone Vampire when it's released but have no intention of sending Hyperion a dime.

What I find even more baffling is that with Hyperion's track record of stiffing programmers/developers and their litigious nature that anyone in this day and age would even consider working for them. I don't doubt that 3.1.4 is a decent upgrade for those who really need it, but it's a shame to see that Hyperion hasn't changed one bit. Scum-bag lawyer strikes again!

@ferrels

I'm perfectly happy with my OS3.9 machines. Never did see enough of an improvement with 3.1.4 that justified messing with my setup. Also, I don't have the time.

I'd imagine many 68k Amiga users have had similar sentiments regarding 3.1.4 and their well established setups.

My additional motivation comes from not abiding bullies, and Hyperion is a bully. So it'll be a cold day in hell before any of my hard earned coin flows their way. That last one I know is not a sentiment shared with many other Amigans.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

Quote:

ferrels wrote: You must be joking because there aren't that many active classic Amiga users left on the planet,

Evidence?

If there aren't that many classic Amiga users left, who's downloading all those packages from Aminet?

game/actio/WormWars.lha

Mirror: Random
Showing: m68k-amigaosgeneric
No screenshot available
Short: Advanced snake/Tron game
Author: amigansoftware at gmail.com (James Jacobs)
Uploader: amigansoftware gmail com (James Jacobs)
Type: game/actio
Version: 9.15
Replaces: game/actio/WormWars-AROS.lha
Requires: OS3.0+, 2Mb RAM
Architecture: m68k-amigaos >= 3.0.0
Kurz: Erweitertes Snake Spiel
URL: http://amigan.1emu.net/releases/
Date: 2019-01-18
Download: http://aminet.net/game/actio/WormWars.lha - View contents
Readme: http://aminet.net/game/actio/WormWars.readme
Downloads: 6665

@bhabbott

Downloads are accumulated between versions.

@matthey

Wasn't there some sort of reporting requirement (VAT maybe?) that Hyperion was exempted from due to their annual turnover being below some rather low threshold?

Would be funny if they managed to get themselves into trouble with that submission :)

@agami



Quote:

I'm perfectly happy with my OS3.9 machines. Never did see enough of an improvement with 3.1.4 that justified messing with my setup. Also, I don't have the time. I'd imagine many 68k Amiga users have had similar sentiments regarding 3.1.4 and their well established setups. My additional motivation comes from not abiding bullies, and Hyperion is a bully. So it'll be a cold day in hell before any of my hard earned coin flows their way. That last one I know is not a sentiment shared with many other Amigans.

My sentiments exactly and as the adage goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" OS3.1.4 just didn't offer me anything that I needed or wanted.

Quote:

agami wrote: I'm perfectly happy with my OS3.9 machines. Never did see enough of an improvement with 3.1.4 that justified messing with my setup. Also, I don't have the time. I'd imagine many 68k Amiga users have had similar sentiments regarding 3.1.4 and their well established setups.

I'm content with my AmigaOS 3.9 setup even though I would like to have some upgraded and bug fixed components from AmigaOS 3.1.4. AmigaOS 3.1.4 is not complete enough to be a replacement for AmigaOS 3.9 but I like the direction it is heading.

Quote:

My additional motivation comes from not abiding bullies, and Hyperion is a bully. So it'll be a cold day in hell before any of my hard earned coin flows their way. That last one I know is not a sentiment shared with many other Amigans.

Hyperion's immoral and irresponsible conduct is a major contributing factor to why I did not buy AmigaOS 3.1.4. I do not want to subsidize their behavior and prolong their existence. I also do not like how it was poorly packaged for only one Amiga computer forcing people to buy multiple copies.

Quote:

umisef wrote: Wasn't there some sort of reporting requirement (VAT maybe?) that Hyperion was exempted from due to their annual turnover being below some rather low threshold? Would be funny if they managed to get themselves into trouble with that submission :)

Hyperion is likely required to report all income to governments they pay taxes (including VAT) to although it may not be public information. Discovery or testimony in court could cause additional information to become public but I doubt governments are actively cross checking such information looking for tax evasion or fraud.

@bhabbott

Quote:

Evidence? If there aren't that many classic Amiga users left, who's downloading all those packages from Aminet? game/actio/WormWars.lha Mirror: Random Showing: m68k-amigaosgeneric No screenshot available Short: Advanced snake/Tron game Author: amigansoftware at gmail.com (James Jacobs) Uploader: amigansoftware gmail com (James Jacobs) Type: game/actio Version: 9.15 Replaces: game/actio/WormWars-AROS.lha Requires: OS3.0+, 2Mb RAM Architecture: m68k-amigaos >= 3.0.0 Kurz: Erweitertes Snake Spiel URL: http://amigan.1emu.net/releases/ Date: 2019-01-18 Download: http://aminet.net/game/actio/WormWars.lha - View contents Readme: http://aminet.net/game/actio/WormWars.readme Downloads: 6665

The download number has absolutely nothing to do with how many active Amiga users are still out there and even less to do with how many of them may have purchased OS 3.1.4. Download numbers from Aminet are notoriously inaccurate. About 2 years ago I updated the plplot graphics/plotting library and uploaded it to Aminet. If you search for the archive based on its name, you'll get a download number of 358.

Short: PLPLOT Plotting Library
Author: opensource/various
Uploader: stephen ferrell gmail com (Stephen Ferrell)
Type: gfx/show
Version: 5.0.1
Requires: iff.library, reqtools.library
Architecture: m68k-amigaos >= 3.0
Distribution: Aminet
Date: 2017-04-27
Download: http://aminet.net/gfx/show/plplot68k-5.0.1.lha - View contents
Readme: http://aminet.net/gfx/show/plplot68k-5.0.1.readme
Downloads: 358


But if you search for packages in the gfx/show list and look for plplot68k-5.0.1.lha, you'll get a different download number of 138.

plplot68k-5.0.1.lha 5.0.1 gfx/show 138 3.3M 2017-04-27 m68k-amigaos PLPLOT Plotting Library - (readme)


You asked for evidence. Now you have it.

As someone who still does development for 68K Amigas I have a pretty rough idea of how many active users are still out there and it isn't a lot. And when I search for WormWars.lha on Aminet, I get a number of 5401 downloads, not the 6665 that you're getting. The numbers returned are too suspect to use for ANY type of analysis, especially if you're trying to determine how many of them bought an OS upgrade.

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@matthey

Quote:

immoral and irresponsible

Hard to be an Amiga company...

Quote:

I also do not like how it was poorly packaged for only one Amiga computer forcing people to buy multiple copies.

They do the same with 4.x. No big problem in my POV.

Quote:

Hyperion is likely required to report all income to governments they pay taxes (including VAT) to although it may not be public information.

There are public annual reports for 2015, 2016 and 2017:

http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2018-08-00011-EN.html

Quote:

ferrels wrote: As someone who still does development for 68K Amigas I have a pretty rough idea of how many active users are still out there and it isn't a lot. And when I search for WormWars.lha on Aminet, I get a number of 5401 downloads, not the 6665 that you're getting. The numbers returned are too suspect to use for ANY type of analysis, especially if you're trying to determine how many of them bought an OS upgrade.

How do you explain the the Natami "MX Bringup Thread" which had 761487 views last I checked? No doubt there were many views by the same users and some robots but it is difficult to imagine a few thousand users generating this many views. I believe this was real interest from tens of thousands of 68k Amiga fans (not necessarily active Amiga users due to lack of affordable hardware) even as the Natami was *not* planned to be cheap hardware. This was the kind of interest which started me thinking about options like a Kickstarter and an ASIC. The 68k Amiga crowd is suppressed and repressed. It is not popular to mention the Amiga, the history or the current disastrous Amiga politics. The Natami (and to a lesser extent Vampire) generated Amiga excitement and buzz at an unprecedented level. The Amiga PPC oppressors tried to ignore it but AmigaOS 3.1.4 was successful enough (even though many 68k Amiga users did *not* buy it) that Hyperion may even be rethinking their business strategies.

The following is a link on EAB in 2016 where I talk about the number of views while the Natami web site was still up (nobody questioned the number of views as they could verify themselves).

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1101852&postcount=250

@matthey

Quote:Quote:

How do you explain the the Natami "MX Bringup Thread"

You did a very good job of answering your own question....many views by the same users and some robots.....

I see the same thing going on at the Vampire forums. Even if you can believe the guess-timates of around 4000 Vampires being sold, why does this thread have over 110K views?
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=4142

Like many users interested in the topic of the thread, I check this thread about 8-10 times per day, that's why. Especially if I've made some comments in the thread and expect some replies or new updates when things get lively.

And just because no one questioned your numbers in no way implies that your numbers are accurate. It only means no one questioned them. And one day you'll have to explain to me the direct correlation you're making in site/thread views to OS3.1.4 sales, because I certainly don't see one. And there's certainly no one making a living off of anything 68K related these days. Even Gunnar and his team have real day jobs. The Amiga is their hobby. And if there was any money to be made, Hyperion wouldn't be insolvent and suing the pants off of anyone they THINK is making money on 68K Amigas.

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Quote:

There are probably about 50 die-hard users who have bought multiple copies I have no intention of sending Hyperion a dime It's a shame to see that Hyperion hasn't changed one bit. Scum-bag lawyer strikes again!

_________________
That'll Put Marzipan In Your Pie Plate, Bingo
💻 Pro-Amiga, 🌍 Pro-Globalism, 🍅 Pro-Vegan, 🛦 Pro-NATO & 🇪🇺 Pro-Joint EU Defense Intervention Initiative

@Petah

I don't hate Hyperion or their products. I just make a point of not doing business with crooks. That policy has served me well for many years. And thanks for adding a useless and juvenile meme to the discussion. Your contributions are duly noted.

Last edited by ferrels on 23-Jan-2019 at 07:58 PM.

Quote:

pavlor wrote: There are [Hyperion] public annual reports for 2015, 2016 and 2017: http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2018-08-00011-EN.html

I see 2017 Schulden (debt) of 588.003 ($669,665 U.S.) which they managed to pay down. This is odd as it looks like Hyperion was unprofitable and becoming more unprofitable in recent years with a profit of -44.197 ($-50,335 U.S.). It looks like their sales were 26.601 ($30,295 U.S.) and dropping which is likely the base Hyperion sales which @Amigadocuments refers to when it says AmigaOS 3.1.4 sales are 10x Hyperion's 2017 sales.

10x $30,295 = $302,950

Hyperion's "conservative" estimate of 3.1.4 sales: $240,000-$360,000/year

It looks like @Amigadocument's numbers are in the proper range. If the rumor is true about AmigaOS 3.1.4 sales, it would be a major game changer for Hyperion as they would almost certainly become profitable and on a good pace to pay back their debt (assuming their profit margin is high as the "Claimed cost of 3.1.4 update work from developers: free"). Of course, Hyperion likely did not create a sustainable revenue stream because they did not pay the programmers (reducing the likely hood of them doing more work in the future) or properly license the 68k AmigaOS (resulting in law suits which would probably exceed their AmigaOS 3.1.4 profits). The Timothy De Groote (SimplePPC) post of "PS: why don't you ask me or other people@Hyperion if we are getting rich from this or getting paid?" would be disingenuous at the very least. Yes, Hyperion employees may not be getting payed yet but it looks to me like some of them are liabilities which don't deserve to be paid.

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@matthey

We already know that Hyperion stiffs its developers/programmers and has left many other debts unpaid so why are you so quick to believe ANY number that they throw around, in or out of court? Ben's track record speaks for itself and he nor his company are to be trusted, especially when it comes to money or anything else he claims to be factual. As to whether some of their employees deserve to get paid or not, it's not for you to decide. It's also very distasteful that you are now throwing around the names of those employees that YOU think are undeserving of payment. Are you on Hyperion's payroll by chance? Do they pay you to police this site? YOUR reasons for believing some employees don't deserve to be paid are irrelevant unless of course you're speaking on behalf of Hyperion as a representative/employee of their HR dept or in the event you directly supervised said employees for Hyperion.

Obviously no one else believes Hyperion's claims (regarding sales or IP ownership) either which is why things are once again in the hands of the courts.

And Ben, being an attorney, does all his work for Hyperion pro bono meaning the only legal expenses he incurs are any judgments against Hyperion, filing fees, and his travel expenses.

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Quote:

ferrels wrote: The download number has absolutely nothing to do with how many active Amiga users are still out there... Download numbers from Aminet are notoriously inaccurate... You asked for evidence. Now you have it. As someone who still does development for 68K Amigas I have a pretty rough idea of how many active users are still out there and it isn't a lot.

We can argue about the 'accuracy' of Aminet download numbers, but your "pretty rough idea" is not evidence.

There is plenty of other evidence for more than 'not a lot' of active Amiga users. For example when I bought a Vampire 600 in 2017, over 2700 Vampire cards had already been sold (I since heard that over 4000 have been sold to date). At 350 Euro each I doubt that many bought more than one, so that number must only represent a fraction of the total active users.

But we live a post-fact world now, where any numbers you don't agree with can just be dismissed as 'fake news'. :(

BTW, Vampire V2 is now AmigaOS 3.1.4 ready!

Quote:

ferrels wrote: We already know that Hyperion stiffs its developers/programmers and has left many other debts unpaid so why are you so quick to believe ANY number that they throw around, in or out of court?

1) Stiffing the government earns jail time where stiffing the programmers earns more profit.
2) If cooking the books then it would likely be more beneficial to make the numbers look good.

Hyperion may have had to do some creative accounting to keep from going bankrupt but there are limits to what is safe, even for lawyers.

Quote:

Ben's track record speaks for itself and he nor his company are to be trusted, especially when it comes to money or anything else he claims to be factual. As to whether some of their employees deserve to get paid or not, it's not for you to decide. It's also very distasteful that you are now throwing around the names of those employees that YOU think are undeserving of payment.

I did not name which employees are liabilities. Perhaps you are inferring names?

Quote:

Are you on Hyperion's payroll by chance? Do they pay you to police this site? YOUR reasons for believing some employees don't deserve to be paid are irrelevant unless of course you're speaking on behalf of Hyperion as a representative/employee of their HR dept or in the event you directly supervised said employees for Hyperion.

I do not work for Hyperion nor do I have any authority to police.

I did not like the deceptive answer about AmigaOS 3.1.4 which Timothy gave. Instead of saying the 68k AmigaOS 3.1.4 is exceeding our expectations and turned around our business, he says, "why don't you ask me or other people@Hyperion if we are getting rich from this or getting paid?" My motivation is to uncover the truth and expose any deception.

Quote:

Obviously no one else believes Hyperion's claims (regarding sales or IP ownership) either which is why things are once again in the hands of the courts. And Ben, being an attorney, does all his work for Hyperion pro bono meaning the only legal expenses he incurs are any judgments against Hyperion, filing fees, and his travel expenses.

Cloanto and Amiga Inc. are asking for all the money Hyperion earned from AmigaOS 3.1.4 plus their legal expenses so there is much more at stake now. I expect Hyperion will declare bankruptcy if they lose the court case. It's possible they could delay payment for years but they could also lose the license to develop the AmigaOS and use the AmigaOS and AmigaOne name with the cancellation of the original contract. There wouldn't be much reason for Trevor to bail them out at that point.

@Petah

Ben Hermans is looking a little rough these days.

@bhabbott

Quote:

We can argue about the 'accuracy' of Aminet download numbers, but your "pretty rough idea" is not evidence. There is plenty of other evidence for more than 'not a lot' of active Amiga users. For example when I bought a Vampire 600 in 2017, over 2700 Vampire cards had already been sold (I since heard that over 4000 have been sold to date). At 350 Euro each I doubt that many bought more than one, so that number must only represent a fraction of the total active users. But we live a post-fact world now, where any numbers you don't agree with can just be dismissed as 'fake news'. :(

There's nothing to argue about in regard to Aminet's download numbers. The numbers are inaccurate and I've shown them to be inaccurate using their own data on their own search engine. The fact that you want to keep pointing to those inaccurate download numbers of software packages and equate them somehow to total sales of OS 3.1.4 is ludicrous at best. They are completely unrelated and there's nothing to be dismissed. Just go to Aminet and check them again yourself....oh, but that would defeat your entire argument so I don't expect you to do that and damage your fragile ego.

Unsurprisingly, you left out the factual info when you quoted me as well, so I'll do you the favor of posting it again:

Quote:

If you search for the archive based on its name, you'll get a download number of 358. Short: PLPLOT Plotting Library Author: opensource/various Uploader: stephen ferrell gmail com (Stephen Ferrell) Type: gfx/show Version: 5.0.1 Requires: iff.library, reqtools.library Architecture: m68k-amigaos >= 3.0 Distribution: Aminet Date: 2017-04-27 Download: http://aminet.net/gfx/show/plplot68k-5.0.1.lha - View contents Readme: http://aminet.net/gfx/show/plplot68k-5.0.1.readme Downloads: 358 But if you search for packages in the gfx/show list and look for plplot68k-5.0.1.lha, you'll get a different download number of 138. plplot68k-5.0.1.lha 5.0.1 gfx/show 138 3.3M 2017-04-27 m68k-amigaos PLPLOT Plotting Library - (readme) And when I search for WormWars.lha on Aminet, I get a number of 5401 downloads, not the 6665 that you're getting. name: ^ version: path: dls: size: date: arch: desc: WormWars.lha 9.15 game/actio 5401 852K 2019-01-18 m68k-amigaos Advanced snake/Tron game - (readme)

You also seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that the download counters for some of those packages go back well over 20 years, long before 3.1.4 existed, and long after most Amiga users moved on and left the Amiga behind. And as rzookol pointed out, the inaccurate download number Aminet is using spans several versions of the same package.

Sorry, but Vampire sales numbers mean little-to-nothing in terms of OS 3.1.4 sales. Even if we are to accept that the 4000 number of total Vampire sales is accurate, and we can't, there are probably 1/10th of those users who MAY have bought 3.1.4. Most Vampire users have stuck with 3.1/3.5/3.9 or just used CoffinOS instead which is 3.9 with some added software. You make it sound as if there are thousands of prospective buyers of OS 3.1.4 who are ready to take to the streets demanding their copy. If that were the case, Hyperion wouldn't be having such financial difficulties and the sales of OS 3.1.4 would be self-sustaining....and they aren't. Just ask those unpaid developers/programmers.

BTW, Vampires were CoffinOS, 3.1/3.5/3.9 ready long before OS 3.1.4 arrived! Most owners will stick with those choices. Vampire sales won't be increasing over time either. Sales will peak with the standalone version and then there will be a steep decline. It's a niche market for die-hard enthusiasts just as anything related to Amigas these days is a niche market so for Hyperion to say they expect sales of OS3.1.4 to exceed $240K USD annually, year after year, is dishonest at best.

The Amiga is a dead platform and that's where it will stay. But there has long been a small group of people who show up at these forums year after year with great plans about how the Amiga will rise again and take the world by storm....I've been hearing the same delusions from those types since 1992.

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