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      /  Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
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Srtest 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 23-Nov-2019 21:12:00
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 242
From: Israel, Haderah

@agami

It's almost as if you are going word-for-word about what I suggested regarding ScummVM being the model moving forward, only to be bashed by the likes of you, who are now talking about de-emphasizing the os.

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Srtest 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 23-Nov-2019 21:38:16
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 242
From: Israel, Haderah

@utri007

"What would need tot get Amiga OS to mainstream again? few miljard euros and then it woun't matter what technics it uses."

Exactly. Google just closed down another failed multi-million (billion?) experiment in it's failed social network. The result? almost nothing.

Peeps here behave like these are the same market conditions because mixing markets with tech allows them to present their ideas as valid, while the entire pc market is basically a derivative at this point.

If you wanna work, you can a buy a platform for work. If you wanna play, usually you'll buy a platform for it. PCs, if they aren't home entertainment centers, are completely a branch of the web. There are currently in the main stream a mix of forces which are keeping it alive: gpu and cpu makers (more gpu than cpu because cpu is entering many devices), online games makers and various online activities which haven't been fully translated to smart devices. Streaming has come and practically conquered the world and somehow it doesn't even show up in the discussions here like it's nothing. You have this relatively new entertainment branch which is completely independent to your pc. It will become more and more seamless with various other devices and continue to change habits. Oh, wait a minute, I've said a word about the connection between humans and machine which is more often than not, alien to these forums.

Last edited by Srtest on 23-Nov-2019 at 09:39 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 23-Nov-2019 23:20:26
#43 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 167
From: Unknown

Some x86 followers thinks that We accept every shit just because it is cheap. But cheap shit is still shit.

It is simple. If for example the same 3D scene is rendered 2 hours on ppc, 1 hours on AROS x86 and 5 minuts on windows/linux/osx, nobody will use AROS x86 for raytracing.
The same applies to games, movie processing, scientific and engineering calculations.
Everything where graphics cards may speed up something.

It is obvious that AROS x86 should be canceled and replaced with something with good quality drivers.

Which on x86 means unix with Amiga gui and graphics.

Who?

There are some resources that may be used to made Amiga NG 3G like for example AROS x86 developers, and some AROS followers like for ex fishy_fis that has problems with ppc.








Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 23-Nov-2019 at 11:21 PM.

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paolone 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 11:40:46
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1060
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
Some x86 followers thinks that We accept every shit just because it is cheap. But cheap shit is still shit.


Beware of the fact that you're calling 'shit' something that costed just many many hours of developers' volounteer work, and some thousands of euros from enthuiasts who financed part of them. These efforts deserve respect, and I sincerely wonder the ####ing why nobody has banned or warned you for this.

Your attitude, really, is the only shit/crap I see here.

Quote:

It is simple. If for example the same 3D scene is rendered 2 hours on ppc, 1 hours on AROS x86 and 5 minuts on windows/linux/osx, nobody will use AROS x86 for raytracing.


I will follow your logic and let you see that if nobody will spend 1 hour of their time to render a scene on AROS, less that nobody will buy a slower-yet-more-pricey PPC to do that.

Quote:

It is obvious that AROS x86 should be canceled and replaced with something with good quality drivers.
Which on x86 means unix with Amiga gui and graphics.


And, my cheer one, who's gonna make that Amiga GUI? What would you use for that? A common Linux solution with a simple workbench-like theme? or maybe you would prefer a straight port of Intuition, being able to handle Linux programs? And if I told you hosted x86-AROS who you are so blatantly and stupidly try to make 'us' cancel with no apparent glimpse of intelligence, is the *perfect fit* for what you're asking for, or at least a good starting point?

Quote:

There are some resources that may be used to made Amiga NG 3G like for example AROS x86 developers, and some AROS followers like for ex fishy_fis that has problems with ppc.


Not inside your skull, apparently.


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Zylesea 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 12:56:26
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2170
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote:

I will follow your logic (...)



To actualy do that it would require to be some logic present at all. But it just isn't.

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Srtest 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 13:33:18
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 242
From: Israel, Haderah

@paolone

"Beware of the fact that you're calling 'shit' something that costed just many many hours of developers' volounteer work, and some thousands of euros from enthuiasts who financed part of them. These efforts deserve respect, and I sincerely wonder the ####ing why nobody has banned or warned you for this. "

I have personally witnessed here for years a mode of constant bashing many of the supposed "next generation" efforts. All disregarded hard work and thought processes and time and resources spent.

So get off of you high horse. He isn't doing anything out of the ordinary in these parts of Amiga land.

Last edited by Srtest on 24-Nov-2019 at 01:34 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 13:59:59
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5151
From: UK

@Thread

Compared to this divisive thread I think A-EON / Trevor Dickinson are doing just fine with their efforts to unify and push this community forward. Trevor appreciates ALL flavours of Amiga development and just wants us to "Keep the Party Going"! That is good enough for me!

Hear's to Trevor and A-EON!

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bison 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 15:04:19
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1528
From: N-Space

@megol

Quote:
Combine that with simplicity and configurability for the end user and let the user be in command of their own machine. Simplicity with (for the time) power and flexibility are to me the most important part of the OS worth keeping.

Yes, I agree with that. These are abstract principles (simplicity, configurability, flexibility, and user control) that could be carried over to a new system. The Amiga code base is obsolete, but some of the design principles are still valid, and sadly missing in most modern systems.

Quote:
Don't really want to have a workbench workalike as part of a modern system BTW, the UI is IMHO part of what would have to be changed drastically or replaced.

This is interesting. In what ways would you change the UI? And what existing UI comes closest to what you think works best? I write X11 window managers, so I'm interested in hearing other people's views on these things. I know what *I* like, but it's difficult to discern other people's preferences.

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sTix 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 15:34:59
#49 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 95
From: Lund, Sweden

@BigD

I agree. The efforts of Trevor and A-EON is a good example of the type of madness (in a good way) that, IMHO, we need more of.

I think the AROS developers are doing great as well. I don't get it when people in this community go on about open sourcing, x86, ARM, da-di-dada etc etc, when all that already exists in the form of AROS.

I also don't understand this obsession with the price of HW, it's a hobby, cost shouldn't be that much of an issue (to some extent of course).


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mr2 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 16:06:08
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 654
From: Poland

@Srtest

Quote:
So get off of you high horse. He isn't doing anything out of the ordinary in these parts of Amiga land.


He is bashing AROS. Thats new here. Only AmigaOS4/Hyperion/AEon bashing allowed. I find his posts quite refreshing in this matter
If you don't care all his agressive tone (it should not be so hard if you are forced to read some MOS/AROS fanboys' nasty posts), he made some valid points.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 16:31:34
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 555
From: Unknown

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way



How many millions do you want to invest in the development?

Do you have a plan for the marketing of such a system?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 19:58:38
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11219
From: Norway

@mr2

Maybe, but its not helping anyone, its just waste of time one way or there other..

I just wish people instead of talking crap about x, y or z, should spend their time working on music, graphic, programming, writing manuals, doing blogs and be productive and creative in the community. We get lot more done, and sure be a better community. All this negativity, does do anything.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 20:34:20
#53 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 167
From: Unknown

In the past many x86 followers bashing ppc, and state that on x86 everything will be faster.
Suprise! It is all lies, there are no really fast amiga solutions on x86.
Everywhere more speed is needed, AROS x86 is a hair ahead ppc solutions but miles away from windows/linux/osx.
Movie processing, audio procesing, raytracing, scientific and engineering calculations take hours on AROS x86
when the same work can be done in minuts on windows/linux/osx.
games has teen time less fps.
It is time to cancel AROS x86, nobody need it, and start something that will be worth of use on x86 and other hardware.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 24-Nov-2019 20:42:52
#54 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 167
From: Unknown

@OneTimer1

Zero millions of course.
The idea is to use AROS x86 developers and members of out community that has problems with ppc to work for free, on necessary improvements of ZUNE to get it to state when it will be compatible with at least MUI 3.8 form 1997, then port it to unix.


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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 25-Nov-2019 7:43:22
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5188
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

There was some good comments that I agree etc....
My reply (again in .pdf):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hwdHErXHqG7CZGByAKmo9EU81cFHJZvn/view?usp=sharing

My ThirdGen vision:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ck2gpqjl2NS4nQjLGl2IVf-Ikn--dEdP/view?usp=sharing

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Nov-2019 at 10:12 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Nov-2019 at 07:43 AM.

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// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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paolone 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 25-Nov-2019 8:53:38
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1060
From: Unknown

@mr2

Quote:

If you don't care all his agressive tone (it should not be so hard if you are forced to read some MOS/AROS fanboys' nasty posts), he made some valid points.


The hirony, here, is that I am working exactly in the direction he talks about.

https://vmwaros.blogspot.com/2019/11/more-changes-to-hosted-myworkspace.html

Scroll down the page and look at the last screenshots.

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paolone 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 25-Nov-2019 9:08:49
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1060
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

Quote:

To actualy do that it would require to be some logic present at all. But it just isn't.


That's untrue.

The logic is clear and he's partially right: there is no need to use AROS on a PC to get a raytracing done, when any other operating system will perform the same operation in a fraction of the time, due to ability of use SMP on central processor and OpenCL on GPU to accelerate. You do that on AROS just because you want to do that in the "Amiga way", as much as you buy a PPC system to do that with AmigaOS or MOS. To get the same performance on x86 AROS, three operations are mandatory:

1. add SMP to AROS itself, and this is being done on x64 (we've already got a smp-enabled raytracer, by the way)

2. add OpenCL to AROS: again, we've got a up-to-date refresh of AROS MESA from Kalamatee, and again on ABIv1 x64, few weeks ago. This can be the foundation to bring also newer Gallium3D and OpenCL drivers to AROS as well, but nobody is working on this at the moment.

3. bring the necessary software to AROS, and Blender would be a good candidate if only, again, someone would take the effort.

In a nutshell, what's required is just manpower.

The other option, if I want to do that today and I don't want to wait forever, is using another operating system, with all these features already available, along with AROS. And the only way I see to reach this goal keeping the Amiga-like AROS environment, is just letting it do what's best at: user interface. Think at the 'rabbit hole' but extend its capabilities, taking advantage of AROS and Linux programs which can run side-by-side at the same native speed.

Last edited by paolone on 25-Nov-2019 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by paolone on 25-Nov-2019 at 09:09 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 25-Nov-2019 9:18:36
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5684
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

you rightly write that Aros on X86 is not as powerful as Windows, Linux or MacOS but then you must consequently also request to drop PPC too because there even the hardware is much worse than the hardware Aros on X86 runs on

BTW not only the OS or drivers are the problem, partly software is highly optimized to use several cores if available. That can make a big difference, expecially on software like a raytracer

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Nov-2019 at 09:23 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 25-Nov-2019 9:20:43
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5684
From: Unknown

@paolone

in my view Aros on X86 should concentrate on hosted and on virtual environments because the problem of missing drivers is not solvable, at least not with the extreme limited development resources

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 25-Nov-2019 10:17:20
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5188
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

"in my view Aros on X86 should concentrate on hosted and on virtual environments because the problem of missing drivers is not solvable, at least not with the extreme limited development resources"

Yep.
I think also AmigaOS-classic-official and AmigaOS-official (Second and Third Gen) should be officially available as hosted & emulated variants for cheap and wide availability via mainstream HW.

"RabbitHole" -solutions are interesting. (at least for me as AmigaOS fanatic)

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Nov-2019 at 10:19 AM.

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