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DiscreetFX 
Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 8-May-2020 22:15:25
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1862
From: Chicago, IL

AmigaDE seemed to never go anywhere, then it was renamed Amiga Anywhere. But was it all just a shame. How many people bought AmigaDE? I did but never really saw any value in it. It looked so unAmiga and incomplete. What were everyone elseís thoughts. Just a shame after all?

Not sure which was worse AmigaDE or CUSA.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-May-2020 at 11:06 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 8:34:19
#2 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11331
From: Norway

@DiscreetFX

Yes they were pretty bad.

CUSA rename Linux distribution but some Amiga logos on to scam people to buy it.

AmigaDE I guess the idea was not bad, problem I think was that we needed JavaVM at time and got a platform that did not Run Java games, but also did not run on Amiga systems.

Hollywood Designer / Hollywood platform, shows you that you can have success making something that is multi-platform, so it really was just down to execution of the idea, and resources to do so.

There was also flash and JavaVM that also where multiplatform, for some years it had some success, general problem was speed and security, AmigaDE / AA looked promising on the speed part.

So the idea was based on some universal assembler, bottom up design, instead of top down design, bottom up is how C/C++ was developed, while things like Amos is top down approach, where fransois lionet started with the editor, and then implanted the language from there. Kind way its not as fast as pascal, I guess blitz Basic is bottom up approach.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 09:43 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 09:42 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 09:41 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 09:40 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 08:39 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 08:35 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 8:54:47
#3 ]
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Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9102
From: Unknown

@DiscreetFX

Original AmigaDE/AmigaAnywhere idea was interesting: one binary for all devices/displays. AA2 was probably more useable (platform specific binaries), but even Amiga.Inc itself was not willing to attract 3rd party developers. Several years ago I tried to get SDK (when they announced "free download" of AA2), but licence agreement (Software Distribution Agreement) was so restrictive (in short, anything written by AA2 is ownership of A.Inc and distributed by A.Inc), so I was dissuaded to do anything with it.

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kolla 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 10:32:32
#4 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1472
From: Trondheim, Norway

The TAO Group and TAOS, not really Amiga :)

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amigang 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 10:48:22
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1487
From: Cheshire, England

I think again, the basic idea and concept was good (dont know how Amiga it was) but basically they where making mobile apps and games just before Google App and Apple App store took off if I remember correctly so they where kind of targeting the right next big market, just the wrong devices, supporting windows mobile and Blackberry Os and not jumping on Android and Apple IOS (if it would of been allowed on that platform as apple dont like outside platform on it device.).

I think Photogenics got ported to it and at the time I think that was a pretty impressive program to run on PDA.

However the Amiga Anywhere platform and idea kind of does exist, its UAE. You type in any computer dervice on the planet and add Amiga emulation / UAE and it usally has been ported over to it and most device dont have much issue emulating the Amiga anymore, I really think it something this community and Amiga realted companies overlook. Make a game for Amiga and in theroy with UAE its ported to every platform out there!

Last edited by amigang on 09-May-2020 at 10:50 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 11:11:24
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11331
From: Norway

@amigang

I think this was post android, I think Nokia, Erikson phones, and HTC phones running windows mobile. The standardization of the OS by adapting android / Linux as the main OS, and google Java adding a security layer between the OS resources and mobile apps.

Sun Java was already used in Symbian if I'm not mistaken, but that compared to google Java, and Amiga DE, Iím not sure. Also post android there lot more different CPUís used in phones, what it was trying to solve might not be the most important things now.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:15 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:14 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:13 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:11 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 11:23:05
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11331
From: Norway

@amigang

Quote:
However the Amiga Anywhere platform and idea kind of does exist, its UAE. You type in any computer dervice on the planet and add Amiga emulation / UAE and it usally has been ported over to it and most device dont have much issue emulating the Amiga anymore, I really think it something this community and Amiga realted companies overlook. Make a game for Amiga and in theroy with UAE its ported to every platform out there!


The UAE argument form a programing perspective is bad, because it does not give direct access to things like 3D, video decompression, file system, memory management, itís also pretty bad becouse it has to use JIT, and it does not support more then 1 cpu core, the problem is thatís a hardware platform, not a software platform.

EUAE work on AmigaOS4.1, but it takes 100% cpu while itís running, it does know it does not need to take it all, its over taxing the host OS on single core. It's the same result if interpreter or JIT, UAE does know if program is waiting or needs everything inside UAE. It does not know about scheduling.

Amiga DE was able to avoid this, and Amos Kittens will be able to take advantage of native resources, because itís not restricted to hardware box. Java had this problem that all its class was written I Java, this made slow, this way C# is lot more popular this days, its not limited to a box.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:30 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:28 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:26 AM.

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amigadave 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 23:03:36
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1618
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@amigang

The UAE argument form a programing perspective is bad, because it does not give direct access to things like 3D, video decompression, file system, memory management, itís also pretty bad becouse it has to use JIT, and it does not support more then 1 cpu core, the problem is thatís a hardware platform, not a software platform...........


Will there be, or can there ever be, a version of UAE that takes advantage of multiple cores/cpus/threads?

Don't know if it's even possible, but since UAE runs almost every Amiga program and game "good enough" now, there is little incentive to do the work to make it take advantage of the hardware it is running on, unless we are talking about older ARM processors, like the original Raspberry Pi, Pi-2, etc. I think that even the Pi-3 already has enough power to run all, or most Amiga software adequately fast via UAE, and certainly the Pi-4 doesn't need multi-core support from UAE to thrive while running Amiga software and games.

Last edited by amigadave on 09-May-2020 at 11:04 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 9-May-2020 23:45:54
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11331
From: Norway

@amigadave

I have not looked at source code, I really donít know, if its done, if its possible, or how complicated is to split it up in different threads, my guess it already does that some degree, but thatís does not really solve the problem that I talked about, its hardware emulation, it does really know what resources is required or not, it runs as fast as it can, and that is no good for the host OS, running it on more cores, can be worse for the host OS.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2020 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:46 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2020 at 11:46 PM.

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gonegahgah 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 2:41:47
#10 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 124
From: Australia

@DiscreetFX

I bought the d'Amiga as at the time my brother's A4000 had died.
This came with the 'Amiga SDK' which was the Tao system. I think it may have been 1.2.
I've been able to update to versions 1.3 and 1.4 over the years.
Francis kindly provided me with version 1.5.

I do love the VP (Virtual Processor) language. It is very flexible.
Although quick I felt the AVE (Audio Visual Environment) was not up to being a modern OS.
It had a tonne of stuff though.

Having used VP so much I have also felt it could be even more...
I'm currently writing a new parser language using VP.
Once I finish that I'm going to create a new VP compiler from it.

My plan is to expand it's macro system a whole heap and 'correct' some choices.
These are things that will make the language more self-consistent.
For example: '%1'' always annoyed me and makes it hard for highlight editors.
The VP language also ignores upper/lower case which is unacceptable to me.

I've also developed my own 'object' model (which is currently broken).
It's a little complicated but features greater re-usability and will be more efficient I hope.
Taos comes with its own object model which is excellent but not what I want.

So, I have a fair bit of understanding of the system.
I'm not sure that it could have been made into a modern OS at the time but I couldn't say as there are certainly smarter people than me out there? There certainly was/is a lot of clever stuff in it.

I think the idea is still towards being a good one if it is ever done.
There are a lot of good ideas out there of course...
Question is what do we really need?

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 2:47:42
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1862
From: Chicago, IL

@gonegahgah

I wish you great luck. I was not aware they sold a whole computer too. Do you have any pictures of it please?

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gonegahgah 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 3:55:10
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 124
From: Australia

@DiscreetFX

Thanks for that.

That's a good question. I'll have to go have a look?

Here's an image from the web:

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Rob 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 4:24:13
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5903
From: S.Wales

@DiscreetFX

Quote:
I wish you great luck. I was not aware they sold a whole computer too. Do you have any pictures of it please?


d'Amiga was just a specification list created by Amiga Inc and it was upto Amiga delear to put their own systems together. If other dealers did the same Eyetech they were just boring beige boxes. Nothiing to write home about.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://obligement.free.fr/articles/damigadeveloperworkstation.php&prev=search

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gonegahgah 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 5:45:38
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 124
From: Australia

@Rob

The picture I posted from "The Amiga History Guide" looks like what mine looked like.
It basically was just a PC. I think I eventually reformatted it to such later on...
It originally came installed with Linux. I believe that distro ran on either Linux or Windows?
I can't recall the other variants. I think mine was the common variety if few can be called common?
I'm not sure even where the case is now. I probably still have the motherboard somewhere here?
I'm kind of wishing now I had kept it in its original form.
I'm sure there would have been a collector somewhere for the esoteric?
I'm not sure if I took any pictures of it which is kind of sad now too...

Last edited by gonegahgah on 10-May-2020 at 06:04 AM.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 17:48:18
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9855
From: Greensborough, Australia

@DiscreetFX

Amiga Nowhere? LOL.

I had a copy of it somewhere. But I don't recall having a PC at the time so I didn't do much with it. I was interested in Amiga software, not PC software. Being similar to AmigaOS wasn't really good enough for me. The library was said to be dynamic like Amiga, but slightly more advanced as it loaded in functions off disk on the fly as and when needed, unlike the Amiga that loaded in the whole library at once. Even though the Amiga hunk system could dynamically load in code chunks but I don't know how well compilers could be told to do this for sections of code. But now, everyone seems to just load in the code at once, so I don't know if anyone cares anymore about that.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 18:46:57
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1862
From: Chicago, IL

@Hypex

I canít find the one I bought many years ago so I guess it really is Amiga Anywhere.

:)

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matthey 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 20:37:28
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 677
From: Kansas

I thought "Amiga Nowhere" was referring to AmigaNG (Amiga Nowhere Generation).


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gareth_k 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 10-May-2020 20:53:19
#18 ]
Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2014
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Thanks for posting the image @gonegahgah. That's the thumbnail to a larger image on the website that you're welcome to reference below.



The specs can be found at http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/amiedevsys.html

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gonegahgah 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 11-May-2020 4:02:12
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 124
From: Australia

@gareth_k

Thanks Gareth for that. Bit of nostalgia to see it again.

@Hypex

It didn't have shared libraries per se but instead everything was a tool.
Even C and Java compiled down to VP tools.
You were able to group tools in the same directory to have the fashioning of library.

There were main tools and shareable tools only different in that the shareable ones didn't have their own stack or globals.
So the system didn't need special libraries.

One thing I especially like is that functions can return multiple results.
I can remember having to pass structures in C which I find extremely ugly.
Not sure how that has advanced in this day and age or if it is still a problem?

They did something strange in that they embedded the tool name in the tool itself.
You couldn't just move it somewhere else without another tool (The Amiga Inc. mob wrote one).
If the embedded toolname didn't match the tool path then it was invalid.

At first I didn't like having non-moveable tools.
Now it suits my purposes as the file path acts as a unique name for other intentions.

Their object model didn't include being able to make methods as tools.
Though you could just move the code bulk to another tool and call it from the method.
A little bit not perfect in my opinion.
Haiku Raggae copied Amiga datatypes and had a slightly better solution...

Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-May-2020 at 04:19 AM.
Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-May-2020 at 04:17 AM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga Nowhere
Posted on 11-May-2020 9:58:18
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2203
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@gonegahgah

The macro function of the "tools" required them to be cached as native binaries, much like Dalvik JVM under Android. The concept could still be applied to Warp3D Nova to allow it to "inline" library calls into the calling executable. That's also why the tools had to be small because the dependencies needed to be rebuilt every time a driver or other tool changed.

@thread

The function I intended for AmigaDE to fill when I suggested it at the Amiga '98 DevCon, was to bridge 68k Amiga apps to run on other architectures like PPC without having to JIT them in realtime. AmigaDE was an AOT compiler like WebAssembly. How Amiga Inc. screwed it up most was never coming out with the 68k version of it. Also, making it little-endian made it non-Amiga as well.

I think I discarded the Windows and Linux install disks I had for it during my latest move.

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