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PosterThread
tohe 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 11:29:26
#21 ]
New Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2020
Posts: 1
From: Unknown

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
@Thread

Some might see the Amiga ideal for retro gaming but many young people see Minecraft as a retro game, something we didn't had on the Amiga.

Or for example games made with RPG Maker, something tha never ran on the Amiga

@OneTimer1

Actually you can play (at least some) of the games made with RPG Maker - not on 68k Amiga, but 'Amiga NG' like OS4 and MorphOS, here's the link for EasyRPG player - at least some of the games I tried did work:

http://bszili.morphos.me/

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amigang 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 17:52:57
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1638
From: Cheshire, England

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
They be using is Godot, Unity, Unreal, the program language they going to learn is JavaScript and phyton, maybe C#, Amiga has nothing to offer to the new generation, of programmers, so all you will have is declining new content. Sure, will be some C/C++ programmers as well, but its not as popular these days, its considered difficult.


Dont forget we have got Hollywood that allows you to make games/programs/slideshow for Linux, Windows, Mac, Android, IOS etc I think that might interest a few.

Plus if your just starting out on programming to understand the basics some kids might like Amos. But I admit it hard to enough to get the young into this stuff already as more people want quick results.

I wish we had a NG version of S.E.U.C.K or Backbone. I'm interested in where Red Pill and Scorpion Engine leads but feel they both need to be a bit more end user friendly focus.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 18:17:39
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 908
From: Unknown

@amigang

What ever productivity tools Amiga has, kids who are intrested about those has already seen better ones. It's quite bit harder to impress kids of today than your average Amigan.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 18:41:11
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@Rose

An over generalisation for sure! Web apps are fun but not proper applications. Most schools just use web apps for coding/productivity at primary level. Quite shallow and not like a 'real' computer program.

Last edited by BigD on 30-Jun-2021 at 06:43 PM.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 18:44:21
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 908
From: Unknown

@BigD

Nobodys talking about web apps but you. Just because you don't know about better doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You know, lot of homes have these things called PC's.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 18:49:31
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@Rose

Quote:
You know, lot of homes have these things called PC's.


Yeah, and the apps available on their parents machine are generally limited to Open Office/MS Office and a browser. The average Amiga user is far more creative than a PeeCee owner and knows what apps are going to get them started and I am speaking as an Adobe Photoshop/Premiere user. The Amiga is still a better option for creative kids of today to start on IMHO.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 18:56:38
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 908
From: Unknown

@BigD
Quote:
Yeah, and the apps available on their parents machine are generally limited to Open Office/MS Office and a browser. The average Amiga user is far more creative than a PeeCee owner and knows what apps are going to get them started and I am speaking as an Adobe Photoshop/Premiere user. The Amiga is still a better option for creative kids of today to start on IMHO.


Who doing generalisation now....

Average PC user is more likely to download and install Krita (which easily blows away everything on amiga) for free than buy an Amiga. Besides, PC gaming is reeeeeally popular so kids are likely to have their own PC anyway.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 19:14:40
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@Rose

It depends what age you are talking about. Getting kids into computers at an early age i.e. primary education will likely mean that they wouldn't know where to look online and it would not be safe for them to do so without parent input. Plus what teenager is going to buy their own PC prior to college unless backed up with parents' money? They normally have a smart phone for everything they 'think' PeeCees do! Consoles are far more popular amongst primary age children and early teens IMHO! Fine if we're talking about mid to late teen game modders but I really think you underestimate the impact that an Amiga or RPi simple machine could have to kickstart a young kids creative journey with technology.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 19:17:05
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 908
From: Unknown

@BigD

Once again, you are totally clueless...

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 19:25:35
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@Rose

I've seen the animation features of Krita and think that they're impressive... for use by a teenager as it looks to have a similar learning curve to Photoshop.

I fail to see why you are struggling to grasp that a more entry level and aesthetically simple UI like Deluxe Paint on an Amiga would be better for a primary school age child! Have you even got children and are you aware what is currently being used in school to teach coding/animation?

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 19:54:00
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@Rose

...also the web based Scratch program has merit but I think the Amiga still has something charming and simple to offer! What's wrong with thinking that? This is an Amiga forum after all! You and Simplex seem to be really negative and I don't see why you keep coming back here if you think the Amiga has nothing to offer going forwards! Perplexing

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matthey 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 30-Jun-2021 20:32:55
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

There is no popular modern hardware which has the potential to be as easy to program as the Amiga. It is single user, no SMP and has the easiest low level code in the 68k. The Amiga could be a great educational tool for the younger generations.

None of it matters without affordable Amiga hardware!

The Amiga has some of the coolest retro games of the '80s and '90s. The younger generations jump right in and start playing good Amiga games like they were born knowing how to do it.

None of it matters without affordable Amiga hardware!

Some people worry that the Amiga doesn't have enough retro appeal by itself to mass produce Amiga hardware and this is a legitimate concern.

Raspberry Pi form factor board
HDMI, uSD, 4xUSB (Wi-Fi and Bluetooth can use dongles), ethernet, GPIO (pins for traditional Amiga ports and optional IO board), CD32 compatible keyboard/serial port, JTAG

68k+AGA+ SoC
2 68060 like cores 500MHz-1500MHz
static design for reducing core frequencies for game compatibility (like 68060 design)
bus snooping for handling self modifying code
~4 MiB on chip SRAM which can be configured as L2 cache or as high performance memory

Amiga 20
board with SoC using only 4MiB on chip SRAM
targets embedded market and Amiga retro (games) market

Amiga 30
board with SoC and 1GiB of memory
targets Amiga market and embedded market with higher memory requirements

Amiga 40
board with SoC, 1GiB of memory and an FPGA
targets embedded market and 68k retro market (1st core AmigaOS, 2nd core retro 68k hardware)
FPGA can hold chipsets of Amiga, Atari ST, Sega Genesis, NeGeo and x68000

All products use the same SoC and board to increase volumes for mass production but memory and/or FPGA parts would not be soldered on higher end boards. An Amiga store could provide cases and accessories. An Amiga/retro online store could sell games with a game review and rating system so bad games can be avoided and a filter for platform with an easy download and install system.

Can Amiga make it possible again?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 14:31:13
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11826
From: Norway

@amigang

Quote:
I wish we had a NG version of S.E.U.C.K or Backbone. I'm interested in where Red Pill and Scorpion Engine leads but feel they both need to be a bit more end user friendly focus.


I agree, something like that for NG be nice, its nice way get started, and think this is a nice beginning tool. But they won’t give anyone a job, I think what Amiga needs to be able to do is being a good educational tool. you need the popular programing languages, and you need to focus on standards. We need a sharp eye on school curriculums. And the demand in work places.

We are not even close, to where need to be, to be able to grow as a userbase.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Jul-2021 at 02:32 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Jul-2021 at 02:32 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 14:34:27
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11826
From: Norway

@tohe

Yes «RPG Maker» was nice addition, its only a tool to play a games, you also need ability make a game, without that the Amiga system, is not going to be the tool of choice.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Jul-2021 at 07:17 PM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 15:45:20
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 496
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
There is no popular modern hardware which has the potential to be as easy to program as the Amiga. It is single user, no SMP and has the easiest low level code in the 68k. The Amiga could be a great educational tool for the younger generations.

None of it matters without affordable Amiga hardware!

The Amiga has some of the coolest retro games of the '80s and '90s. The younger generations jump right in and start playing good Amiga games like they were born knowing how to do it.

None of it matters without affordable Amiga hardware!

Some people worry that the Amiga doesn't have enough retro appeal by itself to mass produce Amiga hardware and this is a legitimate concern.

Raspberry Pi form factor board
HDMI, uSD, 4xUSB (Wi-Fi and Bluetooth can use dongles), ethernet, GPIO (pins for traditional Amiga ports and optional IO board), CD32 compatible keyboard/serial port, JTAG

68k+AGA+ SoC
2 68060 like cores 500MHz-1500MHz
static design for reducing core frequencies for game compatibility (like 68060 design)
bus snooping for handling self modifying code
~4 MiB on chip SRAM which can be configured as L2 cache or as high performance memory

Amiga 20
board with SoC using only 4MiB on chip SRAM
targets embedded market and Amiga retro (games) market

Amiga 30
board with SoC and 1GiB of memory
targets Amiga market and embedded market with higher memory requirements

Amiga 40
board with SoC, 1GiB of memory and an FPGA
targets embedded market and 68k retro market (1st core AmigaOS, 2nd core retro 68k hardware)
FPGA can hold chipsets of Amiga, Atari ST, Sega Genesis, NeGeo and x68000

All products use the same SoC and board to increase volumes for mass production but memory and/or FPGA parts would not be soldered on higher end boards. An Amiga store could provide cases and accessories. An Amiga/retro online store could sell games with a game review and rating system so bad games can be avoided and a filter for platform with an easy download and install system.

Can Amiga make it possible again?


Jesus H. Christ lord of us all and master of the seas,

oir good friend matthey truly suffers an addiction or unsound fetish for numbers and cpus and MhZs, to the point that when there's none to discuss HE MAKES UP IMAGINARY ONES.

My friends, if we care for the mental health of our dear comrade in Amiga mr. matthey, I believe we need to arrange an intervention asap.

QUICK! SOMEONE FETCH THE "TALKING PILLOW"!!

/MEGA

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kolla 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 16:17:36
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1789
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

I have what you want - FleaFPGA Ohm, two of them, they run an aging Minimig/TG68 combo core (68020) and is in the form factor of a Raspberry Pi zero (I even have them mounted together with pi zero W, sharing power and serial connection over GPIO pins). And they costed some 50 euros (or GBP, can't remember) some years ago.

So, since you keep bringing this up... do YOU have one? And why not? Why can't all Amiga developers such as yourself just jump straight onto the cheap alternatives when they DO show up, and actually make something happen?

There are plenty of affordable FPGA systems that run 68k Amiga cores now, so what are you waiting for?

And.. in my view, there are very few people left even within the so called community, even among OS developers, that really GET the Amiga, most of those who really do GET it have moved on.

Last edited by kolla on 01-Jul-2021 at 04:28 PM.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 16:37:56
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 908
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:

It depends what age you are talking about. Getting kids into computers at an early age i.e. primary education will likely mean that they wouldn't know where to look online and it would not be safe for them to do so without parent input.


"Students will gain and share experiences from working with digital media and age appropriate programming" My bad translation of Primary school curriculum for years 1-2 (year one being for kids turning that year 7). So here they will learn in very early age that there are spooky men in the interwebs and can act on it. Besides the interwebs on phone/tablet is equally shitty.

Quote:
Plus what teenager is going to buy their own PC prior to college unless backed up with parents' money?


You will prolly make this some kinda parenting failure but got PC's for both kids. Kinda worked since it inspired both kids on chosing their careers. Both kids at uni atm, should propably have given my a3k so they would have done much better. In my opinion it was investing to their future to give em best possible tools for it, not what mommy likes.

Quote:

I've seen the animation features of Krita and think that they're impressive... for use by a teenager as it looks to have a similar learning curve to Photoshop.

I fail to see why you are struggling to grasp that a more entry level and aesthetically simple UI like Deluxe Paint on an Amiga would be better for a primary school age child!


Kids aint stupid, basic things with Krita is as easy as on deluxe paint, there is PLENTY of great course material to learn it and kids are surprisingly quick learners. And they don't have your 30 years experience on DP's UI.


Quote:
Have you even got children and are you aware what is currently being used in school to teach coding/animation?


Yup, and was surprised about current curriculum when I heard it from my niece who's kid just went to school last fall.

Quote:
What's wrong with thinking that? This is an Amiga forum after all! You and Simplex seem to be really negative and I don't see why you keep coming back here if you think the Amiga has nothing to offer going forwards! Perplexing


What's wrong with having touch with reality?

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matthey 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 21:47:14
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

I have what you want - FleaFPGA Ohm, two of them, they run an aging Minimig/TG68 combo core (68020) and is in the form factor of a Raspberry Pi zero (I even have them mounted together with pi zero W, sharing power and serial connection over GPIO pins). And they costed some 50 euros (or GBP, can't remember) some years ago.


The FleaFPGA Ohm was $45 USD (~38€) on Indiegogo.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fleafpga-ohm-fpga-experimenter-board#/

kolla Quote:

So, since you keep bringing this up... do YOU have one? And why not? Why can't all Amiga developers such as yourself just jump straight onto the cheap alternatives when they DO show up, and actually make something happen?


I was interested but also hesitant. The FPGA is small and it makes it difficult to support AGA, better monitor support, enhancements and a 68020 core with a descent performance. It is a nice open hardware FPGA experimenter's board but it is cramped and primitive for Amiga use and development. The price is good, especially considering the lack of mass production, but the performance/price and user experience could be better. For a one man product and support, it is impressive but that is part of the problem. We have all these FPGA projects using different FPGA brands and sizes and splitting the market so mass production is not possible and support is more difficult. The other problem is lack of performance/price of an FPGA CPU core. There is plenty of cheap low performance 68k hardware but Amiga users want 68k performance and we need it for a more modern experience like using a browser. FPGA CPU and GPU cores result in prices which are too expensive to attract non-Amiga users and even most Amiga users. Emulation will always be around but it is just a sign that the platform is dead.

kolla Quote:

There are plenty of affordable FPGA systems that run 68k Amiga cores now, so what are you waiting for?


None of the current FPGA systems will take the 68k Amiga anywhere. They can barely surpass the real hardware from the '90s and only keep the Amiga platform from dying faster.

kolla Quote:

And.. in my view, there are very few people left even within the so called community, even among OS developers, that really GET the Amiga, most of those who really do GET it have moved on.


True but most are still around and many still have a soft spot for the Amiga even though the current attempts to revive it have been embarrassing. I found people with a soft spot for the 68k as well. Nostalgia can take a product far if it is done right, without shortcuts and paying homage to the philosophy and heritage. Make it cheap enough to sell as a toy and then surprise them with what it can do.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Jul-2021 at 09:51 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Jul-2021 at 09:48 PM.

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A1200 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 21:47:19
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3086
From: Westhall, UK

There's a lot on here who like the sound of their own posts. This thread started as total bollocks and quickly went downhill.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 1-Jul-2021 22:55:42
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@A1200

I honestly don't understand the lack of emthsiasm for introducing the Amiga to the next generation! I have seen children at Amiga meets interested in the kit and have seen first hand them marvel at the kit and observe them seeing merit in old twitch shooters and apps/programs like Deluxe Paint and ProTracker. Why is that concept bollocks? Should this hobby just be for balding old men who like to moan in your opinion?

Last edited by BigD on 01-Jul-2021 at 10:57 PM.

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