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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 6:22:25
#41 ]
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From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

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AAAAAAH AHA HA HAHHA

















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/MEGA

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 9:11:36
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11917
From: Norway

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
Excellent news! AmigaOS 4.0 was kind of a false-start anyway. The Interfaces used by the Amiga SG kernel were slower to access than the original offset tables on 68k. Hopefully they can fix that in their next generation. Exec TG anyone?


“slower to access than the original offset tables on 68k”

the original JMP table is treated as an emulation layer, a 2en class citizen, stack-based argument is translated into 68K CPU registers A0/A7-D0/D7, in stubs, translating from modern stack-based API to emulated API (register based). So, it always be slower to use the old API. Of course, interface API is always faster. As internally the OLD API will be calling the new API.

68K programs
Call “JMP func(A6)”
.. 68k_stub() (Petunia JIT stops on illegal instruction, and calls the Stub function.)
.... 68k registers to arguments.
...... library native PowerPc routine.
…. Result to 68k register D0.
.. End of 68KStub.
68K program continues.

Removing the interfaces means you like to make all programs 2en class citizens. This does not make sense to me. way do you think its good idea for PowerPC progrmas to use emulated 680x0 registers as default?

The only mistake if any was to pass the interface as an extra argument on the stack, it was unnecessary, as library will always have access to itself, the object-oriented paradigm, never really made sense here. I’m debut full it effects the OS in a major way, its after all micro optimalisation.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 09:30 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 09:27 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 09:18 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 09:17 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 09:13 AM.

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BSzili 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 9:33:31
#43 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 430
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Careful now. You are dangerously close to turning this thread into yet another endless technical discussion about computer architectures

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 10:55:50
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1204
From: Athens/Greece

I think this is rather big news as it's the first time someone is trying to build a distro out of OS4.1. Also, it shows a clear sign that at least business entity is still willing to invest more on OS4. Who knows what they might to incorporate next? A new kernel, a new WB replacement (hey Ambient is still open source, right?). IMO while they are at it, perhaps they would consider porting core elements of enhancer into MorphOS as well. Having a better GFX system (and sale it) would benefit all sides.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 11:33:34
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2310
From: Minnesota, USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

MorphOS doesn't use interfaces and runs faster because of it. Double indirection of every function call does that to OS4

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 11:52:24
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11917
From: Norway

@Samurai_Crow

There are no double indirect when using interfaces directly,

Table -> Function(Table, args,…);

So, again, I do not see your point, and you did not answer my question, do you want PowerPC native programs to use 68k registers? Because that’s what you are asking for.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 12:18 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 12:01:31
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11917
From: Norway

@Cool_amigaN

Ambient is open source,
Wonderer is open source
Dopus5 is open source
Scalos is open source.

Workbench re-implementation have done many times, it’s not the hardest part.

intuition / dos & graphics, console.device, input.device are the corner stones,
2en to that is drivers, and you need a lot of drivers, if they are not going to use Hyperion drivers.

I agree with TRIPOS, it’s going to take long time to have a replacement.

but they only need a minimum, so they can boot up, then they can let the users copy stuff over from “AmigaOS4.1 Classic” or some other version of the OS. Won’t be pleasant experience, for the end users, I’m sure there be problems with configuration files, and other mismatches.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 12:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 12:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 12:08 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 12:06:46
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11917
From: Norway

@BSzili

I’m pretty sure be taking about 386/486 and how commodore killed AmigaOS again soon.

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IridiumFX 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 12:38:14
#49 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 67
From: London, UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

I apologise, I am not really into AOS 4 ABI, but rather than "virtual 68K registers", or the double indirection of a struct->funtion(struct, args), what's preventing a base + displacement call on the PowerPC, like the exec of old ? Are you aware of any specific reason ?

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Trixie 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 13:37:17
#50 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2016
From: Czech Republic

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
MorphOS doesn't use interfaces and runs faster because of it.

Would you care to provide any test/benchmark results to support your argument?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 13:47:02
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11917
From: Norway

@IridiumFX

Base offsets, vs interface offsets.

Base offsets:

All Base offsets are 6 bytes offsets, for etch function, so it’s 2bytes aligned.

Interfaces offsets:

have offsets of sizeof(void *) that’s 4 bytes, so it has 4 bytes alignment.

Quote:
what's preventing a base + displacement call on the PowerPC

I believe PowerPC likes 4 bytes alignment so it’s better.
Quote:
like the exec of old ? Are you aware of any specific reason ?


PowerPC has 32 general purpose registers. 680x0 has 8 data registers, and 8 address registers. Generally the CPUs are different, you can maybe map these 16 registers onto the 32 registers. Petunia JIT need to build from ground up like that, and GCC and development tools need to altered to fit your needs. Variable arguments are off Couse not possible on registers, that has to be in stack, and for recursion, you can’t overwrite arguments becouse then recusion does not work.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 02:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jul-2021 at 01:48 PM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 14:00:45
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2310
From: Minnesota, USA

@Trixie

I just have the word of Steven Solie that AmigaOS 4 uses double-indirection to have the interfaces point to the base pointers. No benchmark. He said it was that way before he joined the team so "it is what it is".

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Trixie 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 14:33:55
#53 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2016
From: Czech Republic

@Samurai_Crow

I'd rather be interested in tangible, measurable results showing how exactly the library interface design impacts system performance on PowerPC machines. Because without such results, this kind of talk is purely academic.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 14:49:43
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2310
From: Minnesota, USA

@Trixie

Academic discussion is all I can offer right now because my MorphOS box is a 1.5 GHz G4 and the MIcroA1 is an 800 MHz PPC 750FX. The comparisons wouldn't be fair because niether can run the other one's OS.

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FairBoy 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 14:50:59
#55 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2020
Posts: 48
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow
An interface is just a table of function pointers as NutsAboutAmiga correctly stated.
No idea where somebody would spot an extra indirection there. Maybe when some alcohol is involved or, to be fair, maybe you just misunderstood Solie.
The only extra work to be done is querying the interface which usually happens once at lib load time and therefore has zero performance impact on anything.


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Samurai_Crow 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 15:29:09
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2310
From: Minnesota, USA

@FairBoy

Quote:

FairBoy wrote:
@Samurai_Crow
An interface is just a table of function pointers as NutsAboutAmiga correctly stated.
No idea where somebody would spot an extra indirection there. Maybe when some alcohol is involved or, to be fair, maybe you just misunderstood Solie.
The only extra work to be done is querying the interface which usually happens once at lib load time and therefore has zero performance impact on anything.

Ok. So it's just an indirect jump with 2 instructions executed back to back. (Load followed by an indirect subroutine jump.)

Sometime I'll have to look up how MorphOS does it then. I know that the Trance JIT uses 16 of the 31 registers on the PowerPC to emulate the registers of the 68020 so that is faster than what was described earlier by the Petunia JIT using all stack passing.

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Hypex 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 15:32:53
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@All

I just read the article and images about this alleged independant OS4 bootable ISO image. I conclude it is not fully independant nor an alternative OS4 distro. The reading doesn't state there is a downloafable ISO image. The reading states an ISO image is created using an existing OS4 volume from some Enhancer installer. Even the reboot instructions are a soft reboot and not a full boot from the new ISO. It would be a mix of AmigaKit OS and Amiga OS4. Still, it could actually be a good idea, as no OS4 ISO can boot into a modern system with a modern or recent Radeon card. And it's a pain to update the present OS4 ISO so it boots with a modern Radeon driver.

Last edited by Hypex on 05-Jul-2021 at 03:35 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 15:48:32
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Trixie

Okay here's a slightly odd example as it's slightly technical. An OS4 trap code exception. But it's the smallest example I could find precompiled to demonstrate an OS4 library call.

Trap.c:


#include
#include

uint32 trapCode(struct ExceptionContext *ctx, struct ExecBase *SysBase,
APTR userData)
{
struct ExecIFace *IExec = (struct ExecIFace *)SysBase->MainInterface;

IExec->DebugPrintF("Exception at instruction pointer %p\n",
ctx->ip);

/* To recover from this, we need to skip the offending instruction,
* otherwise, it will re-try the instruciton.
* Note: This depends on the type of instruction. Refer to the
* "PowerPC Programming Environments for 32 bit Microprocessors"
* book for more information.
*/
ctx->ip += 4;

return 1;
}

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
/* This functions sets an exception handler for catching "trap"
* instructions. See for a list of possible
* exceptions
*/
IExec->SetTaskTrap(TRAPNUM_TRAP, &trapCode, 0);

/* Generate an exception */
__asm volatile ("trap");

return 0;
}


Trap.s:

.file "Trap.c"
.section .rodata
.align 2
.LC0:
.string "Exception at instruction pointer %p\n"
.section ".text"
.align 2
.globl trapCode
.type trapCode, @function
trapCode:
mflr %r8
stwu %r1,-32(%r1)
lis %r7,.LC0@ha
stw %r29,20(%r1)
mr %r29,%r3
stw %r8,36(%r1)
lwz %r3,12(%r3)
lwz %r6,632(%r4)
la %r4,.LC0@l(%r7)
stw %r3,8(%r1)
lwz %r5,748(%r6)
mr %r3,%r6
mtctr %r5
bctrl
lwz %r4,12(%r29)
li %r3,1
lwz %r0,36(%r1)
addi %r9,%r4,4
stw %r9,12(%r29)
mtlr %r0
lwz %r29,20(%r1)
addi %r1,%r1,32
blr
.size trapCode, .-trapCode
.align 2
.globl main
.type main, @function
main:
mflr %r3
stwu %r1,-16(%r1)
lis %r9,IExec@ha
lis %r5,trapCode@ha
la %r5,trapCode@l(%r5)
li %r6,0
stw %r3,20(%r1)
lwz %r4,IExec@l(%r9)
lwz %r11,588(%r4)
mr %r3,%r4
lis %r4,0x700
mtctr %r11
bctrl
trap
lwz %r0,20(%r1)
li %r3,0
addi %r1,%r1,16
mtlr %r0
blr
.size main, .-main
.ident "GCC: (GNU) 3.4.4 (AmigaOS build 20050716)"


Examine away!

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bison 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 15:52:06
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1910
From: N-Space

@BSzili

Quote:
Careful now. You are dangerously close to turning this thread into yet another endless technical discussion about computer architectures

Too late.

@Hypex

Quote:
I conclude it is not fully independant nor an alternative OS4 distro.

Yeah, the only way it makes sense is if the intention is to eventually replace the entire OS. I view the current state as a work in progress.

Last edited by bison on 05-Jul-2021 at 03:54 PM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 5-Jul-2021 16:42:46
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 506
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

UH..... EHM...

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