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      /  Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
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Poll : Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Detailed, with a firm ship date
Vague and evasive
Somewhere in between
Pancakes
 
PosterThread
michalsc 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 19:53:34
#41 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 307
From: Germany

@TRIPOS

Quote:
you can’t find any good arguments for it? Amiga has 31-bit address space, which is very limited. Even 32-bit is limited. 64-bit is *needed*, together with proper 64-bit instructions to go with it. Will need recompiled (and slightly altered) sources.


64-bit address space need recompilation of everything. No matter if the move is from PPC to x86 or whether it is within one CPU family. In that case it does not really make any sense to keep software compatibility. And if software compatibility is not the target, then we may go far more beyond AmigaOS API. Think of ARIX.

Quote:
D) is the only proper generic desktop platform that also has proper laptop options. Options ranging from energy efficient to very powerful. Best price/performance ratio.


Largest hardware database is not a blessing, it's a bane. At the moment when you are ready with full driver support for one board, the vendors brings several others to the market. At the moment you support them, the first ones are already abandoned and you cannot buy them anymore.

And no, you cannot really limit hardware support, unless you are a big fat company like Apple is.

AROS is going that route. Forget the hardware compatibility list available on wikipedia. People will try their own configurations and will be very unhappy if they are not working. You tell people to buy selected hardware only? They will complain either. No.

Options in such wide range are a bane. Believe me.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 20:18:17
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@michalsc

Quote:

michalsc wrote:

64-bit address space need recompilation of everything. No matter if the move is from PPC to x86 or whether it is within one CPU family. In that case it does not really make any sense to keep software compatibility. And if software compatibility is not the target, then we may go far more beyond AmigaOS API. Think of ARIX.


Of course it will break compatibility. So will true SMP. And memory protection. Etc. But giving up the ability to run 68k Personal Paint in the same user space as native apps does not mean we must adopt Linux or POSIX or whatever. It could still mean a native evoulution of the OS.

Quote:
Quote:
D) is the only proper generic desktop platform that also has proper laptop options. Options ranging from energy efficient to very powerful. Best price/performance ratio.


Largest hardware database is not a blessing, it's a bane. At the moment when you are ready with full driver support for one board, the vendors brings several others to the market. At the moment you support them, the first ones are already abandoned and you cannot buy them anymore.

And no, you cannot really limit hardware support, unless you are a big fat company like Apple is.

AROS is going that route. Forget the hardware compatibility list available on wikipedia. People will try their own configurations and will be very unhappy if they are not working. You tell people to buy selected hardware only? They will complain either. No.

Options in such wide range are a bane. Believe me.


Having a good selection of HW options does not mean you will support them all. MorphOS has already operated in an eco system of plenty mainstream (albeit old) HW options. Few supported options at first, more later. Not everything is supported still, but that’s no big deal IMHO. It will be the same on x86/x64.

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michalsc 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 20:28:51
#43 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 307
From: Germany

@TRIPOS

Quote:
But giving up the ability to run 68k Personal Paint in the same user space as native apps does not mean we must adopt Linux or POSIX or whatever. It could still mean a native evoulution of the OS.


I am talking here about linux kernel only, not the user space. The user space can remain AmigaOS-oriented or even nearly source compatible. But focusing on it and taking a well supported kernel saves a lot of programmers time for more important things.

Quote:
MorphOS has already operated in an eco system of plenty mainstream (albeit old) HW options


Only because this eco-subsystem (Apple PPC hardware) was already tiny in comparison to the x86_64 world.

Quote:
It will be the same on x86/x64.


I wish that for MorphOS, really. But I'm afraid it will not be that way. Most of us have already some sort of PCs at home and I assure you, not all of us would be willing to buy another and carefully selected PC configuration for running MorphOS. Most will try to run it on the hardware they own already.

And this is the bane I was talking about.

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billt 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 21:48:15
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3196
From: Maryland, USA

@michalsc

So target some qemu config, or VirtualBox, that can be run on top of a lot of different PC motherboards. At lest as a starting point, then when stuff works pretty well that way, start moving out to real hardware drivers. Perhaps that implies more the qemu route, as I understand it is better for getting to actual hardware...

_________________
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kolla 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 22:33:33
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1869
From: Trondheim, Norway

@michalsc

We all know what x86 hardware MorphOS will target, Apple just need to complete the switch to their own “silicon" and then MorphOS will be released for old Intel based macs.

Have you followed the development of Linux on Apple M1 hardware?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 23:53:24
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@michalsc

First, I appreciate your input. And I really appreciate your work!

Quote:

michalsc wrote:

The user space can remain AmigaOS-oriented or even nearly source compatible.


Well, either it’s 100% compatible, or it’s not compatible. These are the options for at least MorphOS or “System 54” developers…

One of the MorphOS developers (Bigfoot?) once said on Morph.zone that an x64 version would not be source compatible, but that the necessary changes to code to at least make old code work would be kept to a minimum. I wish I could provide a link, but I don’t keep that kind of references. And sometimes I get the feeling that MorphOS x64 is (or has been) a moving target, and not entirely committed by everyone. We’ll see…

Quote:
I wish that for MorphOS, really. But I'm afraid it will not be that way. Most of us have already some sort of PCs at home and I assure you, not all of us would be willing to buy another and carefully selected PC configuration for running MorphOS. Most will try to run it on the hardware they own already.

And this is the bane I was talking about.


Well, almost 100% of the current MorphOS users *explicitly* bought additional HW for MorphOS despite already owning other HW not able to run MorphOS. There is a certain motivation to run MorphOS among us who do appreciate it.

Maybe you should take into account that MorphOS is very much more mature and sophisticated (relatively speaking) compared to AROS (and OS4)? Which possibly affects willingness to buy additional HW?

Of course the very low cost of purchasing second hand PPC Mac HW has played its part. But there still is the price of an effort to actually do it.

Well, maybe additional power from x64 may warrant a higher price?

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OlafS25 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 23-Oct-2021 9:19:18
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

I see there a problem. Of course all software managed and contributed by morphos team are available in source and will be adapted. But what about 3rd party software? In some cases the developer might still be active but even then it is not always the case that the new hardware will be supported if that means bigger changes in sources and (in worst case) different source for 3.x/4.X/MorphOS old and on the other hand the new MorphOS platform. And in many cases devs have long left the platform and no sources available so adaption is not possible at all. Or devs are not interested in the new platform at all.

Breaking compatiblity is always problematic. There are reasons why you can even run old DOS applications in current Windows versions.

I also think there are MorphOS fans who will buy dedicated hardware but (as Michal said) most of us own PCs so will be reluctant to buy new dedicated hardware just to use MorphOS. If it runs in virtual environments so people can test it then this might help. The comparation with current situation where people bought dedicated used macs for it is not comparable because most of us did not own or use macs so if you wanted to use morphos you had to buy something dedicated. But most of us already have PCs at home. Then buying something new just to use a obscure OS is something different except you are a hardcore morphos fan. On AROS there was one guy selling dedicated hardware with preinstalled OS but (as I understand it) he not sold many devices. Most people will try to boot it on existing hardware and then drop it. We will see who is right ;)

And regarding "modern" that is a problem. We are finally in a "retro community" where people expect certain things. In "real world" of course requirements are very different. For some even MorphOS today is too "modern" already. You cannot make both happy finally. Of course you can say you do not care about the "retro people" but persuading people outside that have no emotional ties to amiga is certainly much more demanding.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Oct-2021 at 09:46 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Oct-2021 at 09:27 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Oct-2021 at 09:25 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Oct-2021 at 09:22 AM.

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JimIgou 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 23-Oct-2021 13:03:49
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 114
From: Unknown

@kolla

I doubt MorphOS X64 will be limited to Intel based Macs. More likely a specific X64 motherboard or a specific chipset will be chosen.
What in the world makes you think that the developers would focus on Apple hardware?
There is nothing particularly special about it, it would limit our options, and it would cost more.

Last edited by JimIgou on 23-Oct-2021 at 01:06 PM.

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thinkchip 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 23-Oct-2021 13:54:38
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1171
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@bison

I always thought they selected the "wrong" CPU because it was different. They didn't want to compete directly with x86 / Windows.

I also wonder if AmigaOS is splitting. A-Eon is creating their own version which could be better. At least it's newer.

_________________
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Lightwave 2019 / Microsoft Visual C++

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OlafS25 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 23-Oct-2021 15:42:19
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@JimIgou

as I understand it they want to limit it to certain systems... apple on intel would make sense there

we will see

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kolla 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 23-Oct-2021 15:44:18
#51 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1869
From: Trondheim, Norway

@JimIgou

It was a joke, sorry for not providing a smily :)

That said, I don’t think it’s such a crazy idea, especially for laptops.

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IridiumFX 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 23-Oct-2021 18:23:49
#52 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 67
From: London, UK

@thinkchip

I may be wrong but I am under impression no matter how Hyperion vs Cloanto ends, it's a PPC only battle on the AmigaOS name (without the space). A new architecture if I understood correctly, requires a new license. And here I think it's all in Cloanto playfield.

I don't want to spark chaos. If I am wrong I apologise in advance. The situation is such a mess that it's easy to misunderstand

Quote:

thinkchip wrote:
@bison

I always thought they selected the "wrong" CPU because it was different. They didn't want to compete directly with x86 / Windows.

I also wonder if AmigaOS is splitting. A-Eon is creating their own version which could be better. At least it's newer.

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bison 
Re: Trevor's AmiWest A1222 update
Posted on 24-Oct-2021 3:20:51
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1912
From: N-Space

@thinkchip

Quote:
I always thought they selected the "wrong" CPU because it was different. They didn't want to compete directly with x86 / Windows.

I was thinking of specifically of the P1022, not PPC in general. If they had selected a better SoC the board would probably be out by now, albeit at a higher price.

Last edited by bison on 24-Oct-2021 at 03:34 AM.

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