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Poll : What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Chipset
Software
Both
Pancakes
 
PosterThread
kolla 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 25-Nov-2021 9:18:09
#141 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1910
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@kolla

In 1992 pc/mac/atari has chunky pixels.


Mostly not, and for those that do...
* expensive
* low resultions

Quote:

on cheap pc with price comparable to a1200


I have some magazines in the garage somewhere, but here is an online quote...

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/pc-cost-1992.2010671/

Quote:
The cheapest system was an 80286@16Mhz with a socket for an 80287. 2
floppies (1,2&1.44MB), 1MB RAM upgradeable to 4 MB on motherboard, 42 MB
hard drive, keyboard, 2serial-1 parallel, video card, mouse and Video
display, Software Spinnaker 8 in 1, & ProList and DOS 5.0..... COST
$1099

The high end system was a 80486 @ 33Mhz, 2 floppies (1,2&1.44MB), 1 MB
RAM upgradeable to 16MB on motherboard, 42 MB hard drive, keyboard,
2serial- 1parallel, video card and Video display, mouse and DOS
5.0..... COST $1935


The A1200, at introduction in October 1992, was $599, according to wikipedia.

As for VGA graphics chunky modes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_13h

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ppcamiga1 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 9:02:11
#142 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 407
From: Unknown

@kolla

You compare pc with hdd and monitor with amiga without. It is pure BS.

About SVGA. At end of 1992 cheapest SVGA costs only 20% than VGA. Everybody buy SVGA.
If some people were too stupid and save few bucks on graphics it was their problem.

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Srtest 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 11:37:49
#143 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 258
From: Israel, Haderah

@ppcamiga1

You say that Amiga chipset was behind the curve and bring up Chunky speed, but then point it at not having a HD and in a year or two you could also go with CD-ROM. So what way was it that left it behind?

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BigD 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 12:17:16
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6035
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

I don't know what country you are from but the A1200 wiped the floor with its competitors in 1992 as a home computer. Dads bringing PCs into the home for work reasons might disagree and America had a systemic love affair with IBM from the start but I'll never understand that. Commander Keen was rubbish, as was Microsoft Works (bundled with most Windows 95 PCs) and Myst was barely a game! Most PC owners I knew in the mid 90s played Mortal Kombat with a keyboard or even worse a flight stick!

As demonstrated by Napalm, PageStream, DrawStudio and to a lesser extent AlienBreed 3D, the Amiga could have competed upto 1998 with incremenral upgrades with no problem ideally hitting 1996 with a 030 50Mhz CPU and a HD/CD-ROM. The problem was C&C, Microsoft Office, AutoCAD and Doom were all considered killer apps and to the general consumer clones of that software wouldn't cut it. The Internet age also demanded a built in modem as standard by the time the iMac hit but we had a whole half decade before that!

Last edited by BigD on 28-Nov-2021 at 02:05 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 14:04:50
#145 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 407
From: Unknown

@Srtest

Amiga was nice alternative computer with os better than home Windows up to 2001.
Nice os, nice cpu 68k later also nice ppc.
But since 1992 builtin graphics was too slow and outdated.
I am very happy that I do not have to use AGA anymore.
Amiga with a graphics card is the Amiga I have always dreamed of.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 28-Nov-2021 at 02:06 PM.

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BigD 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 14:09:19
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6035
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

AGA made T-Zero and AlienBreed 3D possible on a low spec machine! It was a product of its time and in a 'normal' company would have made way for the AAA/Hombre machines. However, an Atari Jaguar/Falcon hybrid would have been the ideal next step for home computers and if C= had been stronger maybe they could have bought out Atari like Amstrad did with Sinclair!

Last edited by BigD on 28-Nov-2021 at 02:10 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 14:22:04
#147 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 258
From: Israel, Haderah

I had an AGA machine and I liked it. It also was a big box Amiga with a HD and I later added a SCSI card and a CD-ROM. When I went to school I think circa 94 I was in a class which combined some programming with a certain command to operate a built up device for traffic and the class had pcs which had kids stayed during recess playing Dune 2. It had everything needed for it to run as well as could be. They didn't need anything else. If you don't get that that pc ended up with a bundle that took the Amiga combo and presented it as yesterday's stuff I don't know what to tell you. The big box Amiga was like that and I liked having a machine that just worked. At that point I was over floppys at any given mintue.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2021 at 02:23 PM.

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BigD 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 15:42:02
#148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6035
From: UK

@Srtest

Quote:
They didn't need anything else. If you don't get that that pc ended up with a bundle that took the Amiga combo and presented it as yesterday's stuff I don't know what to tell you. The big box Amiga was like that and I liked having a machine that just worked. 


Right, so your programming class didn't need anything else other than the PCs presented to them.

PC: 1 Amiga: 0

So PCs came bundled with (software?) features that made the Amiga seem old news?

PC:2 Amiga: 0

You liked having a big box Amiga that just worked!

PC: 2 Amiga: 1

Is that what you meant to say? In my experience the 'home' software PCs were bundled with was appalling in the mid 90s! You could do far more with a floppy based A1200 with the Desktop Dynamite bundle and a copy of TurboPrint. A HD based Amiga wad better for non-internet apps until about 2000! Programming and Dune 2 was catered for on the Amiga!?

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matthey 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 28-Nov-2021 18:39:31
#149 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1287
From: Kansas

Srtest Quote:

Srtest wrote:
I had an AGA machine and I liked it. It also was a big box Amiga with a HD and I later added a SCSI card and a CD-ROM. When I went to school I think circa 94 I was in a class which combined some programming with a certain command to operate a built up device for traffic and the class had pcs which had kids stayed during recess playing Dune 2. It had everything needed for it to run as well as could be. They didn't need anything else. If you don't get that that pc ended up with a bundle that took the Amiga combo and presented it as yesterday's stuff I don't know what to tell you. The big box Amiga was like that and I liked having a machine that just worked. At that point I was over floppys at any given mintue.


The lack of the Amiga standard including a hard drive and then CD-ROM drive, especially with AGA, was likely a bigger problem than lack of chunk graphics for most games. Hard drives were common on PC compatibles by the late '80s where ECS Amigas rarely had hard drives. AGA Amigas in the 90s likely had a significantly higher percentage of hard drives but many PC compatibles had a CD-ROM drive by that time. Poor product planning made it difficult to add a CD-ROM drive to the Amiga 1200 too. The Amiga had an advantage of having a single source for standards yet followed standards on other systems rather than creating them. CBM wanted the lowest standards to cost reduce the Amiga into the next C64. They didn't even want the 68020+AGA standard as they preferred to produce CDTVs and Amiga 600s in the '90s instead of Amiga 1200s.

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kolla 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 1:57:27
#150 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1910
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Adding hard drives and CD drives wasn’t the problem, but "noone" wanted a CD drive on their A1200 unless it was CD32 games compatible. So if there’s a screw-up to be pointing at, it’s the CD32 for not using gayle IDE in the first place. (But from what I understand, you prefer awkward nonstandard CD drives)


As for standards... all OCS/ECS systems, with exception of A600, had SCSI options - even the CDTV - SCSI was THE standard, before it was killed off by what... the 8bit ISA-bus-on-a-cable that we got to know as IDE.

Last edited by kolla on 29-Nov-2021 at 03:35 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 29-Nov-2021 at 03:34 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 29-Nov-2021 at 01:57 AM.

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matthey 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 3:59:43
#151 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1287
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

Adding hard drives and CD drives wasn’t the problem, but "noone" wanted a CD drive on their A1200 unless it was CD32 games compatible. So if there’s a screw-up to be pointing at, it’s the CD32 for not using gayle IDE in the first place. (But from what I understand, you prefer awkward nonstandard CD drives)


It's not that I prefer a nonstandard CD-ROM drive interface but if an audio CD-ROM drive was significantly cheaper, then it would have been compelling to use it. A standard IDE CD-ROM drive in the CD32 would be easier to upgrade and replace today but the audio drive worked fine and the price was important. A cheaper CD-ROM drive for low end Amigas would have been easier to make a standard. IDE and SCSI drives on higher end Amigas could have been compatible. The same drive interface is not required for compatibility.

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Srtest 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 12:56:58
#152 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 258
From: Israel, Haderah

@BigD

You seem to be missing the point of the argument because you are childishly trying to make it into the qualities of the Amiga which I of course recognize: I used the A4000 and traveled my country until I found someone willing to depart with their SCSI + CD ROM for me to get and attach to the machine. Did you have to travel your country just to buy something so simple to get if you had a PC? Do you get the difference? I had the A4000 long past it making sense. I had it when they brought out Big Red Adventure on Amiga Format which I both subscribed to with CU Amiga. I even played the Evil Doom demo but that was the dwindling light for me. Then of course a couple of years ago I got the X1000. I didn't talk at all about the qualities of keeping an Amiga and finding its usages. I talked about the simplicity that was the Amiga strong suit and when that wasn't there it didn't have anything to persuade anyone to be a geek like I am or others who spent money on end of the line hardware.

Last edited by Srtest on 30-Nov-2021 at 07:57 PM.

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agami 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 2:00:56
#153 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 719
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thread

It is abundantly clear that ppcamiga1's memory is fuzzy when it comes to the personal computing market economics of the the early '90s. In his mind the events of late 1992 and those of late 1993 and early 1994 are bleeding into each other. Which can happen very easily as the the IBM compatible PC market was becoming increasingly dynamic during those years, whereas the Amiga 1200 was unchanging, aftermarket add-ons not withstanding.

Apart from making very few salient points about the theoretical differences between video display technologies, ppcamiga1 will never admit that he got his memory about those years confused. He will not admit he was wrong, no matter how much evidence you present.

For most of us, saying "You know what guys, you're right. I was thinking about late 1993 and especially early 1994." would be super easy, barely an inconvenience. But for someone like ppcamiga1, this would go against every fibre of his being.

The reality is, even if Commodore didn't go bankrupt, the Amiga 1200 would be the same machine in late 1993 and early 1994, especially the AGA part, and the company would no doubt scramble to try and keep it relevant with some add-on bundles.

Which takes us back to how Commodore's demise was inevitable, not unlike how ESCOM's was, and Apple's (almost) was. Things in the personal computing market were speeding up. Modularity and flexibility, in both the end product and the supply chain were the order of the day. Adapt or become extinct.

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matthey 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 5:19:53
#154 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1287
From: Kansas

@agami
Correct, around 1992-1993, technology started advancing at a much faster pace.


What happened to the Commodore Amiga?

Dave Haynie Quote:

It was basically a suicide.

The Amiga was way ahead of its time. Not just in graphics. In the world of personal computers, the Amiga had packed more firsts, or nearly firsts, into one machine than any time in the past or future.

The Amiga hardware used dozens of dedicated DMA channels to speed up all kinds of low-level operations, things other computers (particularly the Macintosh) did by software polling. This was essential to support the true multitasking operating system, long before MacOS supported it... Microsoft were still on MS-DOS and Windows 1.0 hadn't quite shipped yet. Amiga was the first personal computer with graphics acceleration hardware. It could be genlocked to a video stream, allowing it to overlay television graphics. First personal computer to come with stereo, multi-voice audio. The GUI was years ahead of anyone else's. And so on.

The big problem at Commodore was management's commitment to development. The development team worked smart and lean -- there were only two system engineers (George Robbins, Bob Welland) on the Amiga 500, for example, except for a brief month or so when I was helping out, before taking over the Amiga 2000. All by myself... I was 24 years old. We had about 20 people, give or take, working on the operating system.

The problem was the custom chips. They kind of locked into the system what could change and what couldn't. They were also the secret to why an Amiga 500, 1000, or 2000 had the graphics speed of a Mac II. But not a full 24-bit color display. It couldn't go beyond NTSC/PAL video resolutions. It needed to evolve, and the chip group was very underfunded for that kind of work.

One example: a project called the Advanced Amiga Architecture (AAA) began in 1988. It wasn't until 1993 that the first silicon from that project was available -- I built the development system. The chips weren't done, they were only partially functional. That system had a 32-bit graphics processor, 24-bit color, 64-bit memory -- started out way ahead. But the management didn't take it seriously enough.

And by 1991, the successful management team within Engineering, the team that brought out the Amiga 500, Amiga 2000/2500, and Amiga 3000, was replaced by a bunch of idiots. That's where the Amiga 600 came from. The A600 had originally been an in-house project called the A300, designed to deliver an even lower cost alternative to the A500, was jacked up in useless ways to cost more than the A500 but deliver less. They tried kind of the same thing at the higher end, but Commodore's sales companies would have nothing to do with those systems. That team also intentionally delayed the AA project (AGA when the marketing people got hold), the first major improvement in the Amiga custom chips since the beginning (24-bit color, for example).

In short, over years of essentially neglecting to supply what Engineering needed to maintain the Amiga's 1985 lead, that lead was lost. Management was also sucking Commodore dry like some kind of twisted vampire. The two big bosses of 1991, Irving Gould and Mehdi Ali, were each paid in excess of US$3 million in salary and bonus, even as they were sabotaging the future of Amiga. Keep in mind that neither IBM nor Apple were paying their top people even US$1 million. Applying an extra US$5-6 million to chip development back then, that alone could have been the difference.

Now, this wasn't the only issue in the end. But it was the fundamental one. Professionals were switching to Macs or PCs because they couldn't get the performance they needed out of Amigas. Gamers were switching to consoles or, eventually, PCs -- though most of the PC gaming revolution took place a few years later, when companies like nVidia and ATi started delivering 3D graphics. At the end, in 1993-1994, Commodore also had a 3D graphics project in the early stages, dubbed Hombre (designed by Dr. Ed Hepler). nVidia was only just founded in 1993... they didn't release their first attempt at a 3D processor, the RIVA128, until 1997. Hombre had its own on-chip RISC processor, based on HP's PA-RISC instruction set, with custom 3D instructions added.


https://www.quora.com/What-happened-to-the-Commodore-Amiga

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ppcamiga1 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 8:42:42
#155 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 407
From: Unknown

@thread

It is clear that Agami don't remember years 1992-1994.
In Amiga asylum people think that AGA was great.
For rest of world it was clear that Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixel.
Rest of world play games like Wolf3D, that was released in may 1992,
followed by many advanced clones.
Ultima Underworld II was released in nov 1992.
Even Legend of Valour for ms-dos has textured floor.
Comanche was also released in nov 1992.
For rest of world it was clear in spring 1993 that 2D and whole retro is over.
Other drawbacks of AGA like slow chip memory that work with the same clock as in 1983,
almost not changed blitter since 1983 not help.

Games on Amiga end.
But Amiga was still nice alternative computer for work.
With nice os and cpu that was not x86.




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bison 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 15:05:53
#156 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1959
From: N-Space

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Rest of world play games like Wolf3D, that was released in may 1992

Wolf3D was a game changer. Most of my friends were using Amigas at the time, but we started getting PCs after Wolf3D came out. I held out until 1993, just in time for Doom.

Last edited by bison on 30-Nov-2021 at 03:07 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 16:51:11
#157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11993
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

Contributing factor for sure, but also lack of built in CDROM, lack of RAM, pc’s had 4MB while a1200 only had 2mb of chip ram, mortal combat barely made it to Amiga, Amiga the gaming computer that can’t play latest games.

XCOM 2, Decent, DOT and lots of other games never made it to Amiga 1200. DOOM was just one of many games that never got offical support for Amiga.

We started to go to people that owned PC to play Heroes of Might and Magic.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Nov-2021 at 06:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Nov-2021 at 06:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Nov-2021 at 05:05 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Nov-2021 at 04:58 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Nov-2021 at 04:56 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Nov-2021 at 04:55 PM.

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BigD 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 17:53:10
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6035
From: UK

@bison

Quote:
Wolf3D was a game changer. Most of my friends were using Amigas at the time, but we started getting PCs after Wolf3D came out. I held out until 1993, just in time for Doom.


In my experience a large number of A500 owners held out until 1995 whereon they pirated Worms and then 'upgraded' to a PC or PlayStation just to play Doom/3D games! They didn't even consider the A1200 or putting a hard drive in an Amiga!

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billt 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 18:30:31
#159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3196
From: Maryland, USA

At the time, the chipset made it possible to have that software user experience. Today, we don't need super special hardware to have that same software user exerience, pretty much any CPU, GPU etc. combination can be used to give us that experience now. I vote for software...

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DiscreetFX 
Re: What defines Amiga: chipset or software?
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 18:42:47
#160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2090
From: Chicago, IL

I upgraded the A500 with a Datacube SCSI drive in 1994 and I still have not filled my 1 Petabyte of storage on the first Datacube! Maybe I’ll need a 2nd Cube in time for the 22nd Century!

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