https://amigang.com/cd32mini/
Cd32 was released in 1993, 2023 will be its 30th anniversaries and they already have the darker gamepad lined up, it wouldn’t be much work to make this. So would you be interested, would you get a collection of Amiga minis?

Last edited by amigang on 02-Apr-2022 at 07:15 AM.

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@amigang
Nice job on the concept and artwork. Perhaps the lack of interest comes from the fact that the CD32 Mini is similar to THEA500 Mini which would already be available in the market. The embedded Raspberry Pi would have more appeal if it could be used as a general purpose computer as well as an emulator. You don't mention that point and the lack of mentioning Ethernet or WiFi makes me assume it would not be available. I would want a more open system that doesn't need to be hacked in order to be appealing. Amiga users have complained about limitations of the THEA500 Mini in other threads. Lifting those limitations and moving away from gimmicks may be part of the key to success. I'm not sure the CD32 is recognizable enough to be a success as eye candy for impulse buying, especially without Amiga branding.

Personally, I would like a better quality and functional Amiga. The original CD32, which I own, is closer to this ideal. The case is large by today's standards but that is because the motherboard is large due to CBM being slow to integrate the chipset. Today, making a motherboard, a SBC, that is much smaller is no problem and cheaper. The case could be reduced to at least 3/4 the size, and likely smaller, while still being functional with the CD-ROM mechanism (not necessary but would give improved CD32 compatibility). I wonder if that Sony $15 audio CD-ROM mechanism is still available and what it costs today. If using the audio CD-ROM, the electronics for it would need to be in the Amiga chipset like the original CD32. This would probably require at least an FPGA but then this would give improved quality simulation instead of emulation. It could probably be created with an FPGA for cheap enough but the performance and general purpose computing would be lacking compared to a Raspberry Pi. This could be fixed with an ASIC and could reduce production cost but would require time and development cost. The same board would want to be used in a full size Amiga 1200 look alike which probably has more appeal but may cost more to develop and produce.

By the way, the Competition Game pad for the Amiga has the same color as the CD32 and is high quality. It probably makes sense to move to USB but that recolored THEA500 CD32 mini pad looks like it is low quality. Granted, the CD32 game pad was low quality too. How many customers did CBM lose from a cheap CD32 game pad and more importantly cheap tank mice? First impressions are important. At least THEA500 mini tank mouse looks like it is higher quality than the original tank mouse and usable. A CD32 remake wouldn't really need a mouse at all but part of the unique appeal of it was the crossover capability of a console to a computer.

@amigang

I voted No.
I have a CD32, and it is my least favourite Amiga. Without expansions, it shows just how much a of half-baked gaming product it was. That it also played audio CDs, was a minor saving grace. There might have been some grander ideas that were not executed, so we were left with a game console that pretty much only had A1200 game ports. There was no way to save the game progress, which C= knew so they came up with that lame progress code hack.

The fricken thing already has IDE on it, and the case is fairly cavernous; If they left a spot for a 2.5" HDD and a single 72-pin SIMM slot, then one wouldn't need to buy an SX1 to turn it into something a bit more useful.

Even if they didn't run into those patent issues in the US, I'm not entirely sure that selling into that market would've made that much of a difference.

The world's first CD-based and 32-bit game console. The world didn't seem to care.

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agami Quote:

I voted No. I have a CD32, and it is my least favourite Amiga. Without expansions, it shows just how much a of half-baked gaming product it was. That it also played audio CDs, was a minor saving grace. There might have been some grander ideas that were not executed, so we were left with a game console that pretty much only had A1200 game ports. There was no way to save the game progress, which C= knew so they came up with that lame progress code hack. The fricken thing already has IDE on it, and the case is fairly cavernous; If they left a spot for a 2.5" HDD and a single 72-pin SIMM slot, then one wouldn't need to buy an SX1 to turn it into something a bit more useful.

The CD32 should have been more like an Amiga 1200 and the Amiga 1200 should have been more like a CD32 if they had designed both taking into account each other. Hardware was more expensive back then while I agree that easier fast memory expansion and a hard drive or PCMCIA slot would have been nice. With better hardware integration and cheaper hardware costs today, it should be possible to make a single SBC for both with similar capabilities to that of a Raspberry Pi, or just use an embedded Raspberry Pi to gain those capabilities but this seems foreign to the Amiga.

agami Quote:

Even if they didn't run into those patent issues in the US, I'm not entirely sure that selling into that market would've made that much of a difference.

I don't think the U.S. would have been a particularly good market for the CD32 either. There weren't any Amigas in major stores by this late so it would have been interesting to see where CBM would have been able to make it available. It wouldn't have gone into computer stores but maybe some gaming/console stores, toy stores, discount stores and department stores but mostly mail order due to CBM's bad reputation? It would have mainly appealed to previous Amiga owners as a cheap Amiga console for the living room where the CDTV never had much appeal lacking a gaming focus? I recall paying about $150 U.S. through unofficial channels which was maybe cheap enough to attract some kids if it did make it into the appropriate stores? Perhaps if they had bundled enough cheap Amiga games on cheap CD media it would have competed better against cheap consoles with expensive cartridge games?

agami Quote:

The world's first CD-based and 32-bit game console. The world didn't seem to care.

CBM wasn't even able to give it a proper launch as they went down the drain. It really should have been earlier. CBM was still trying to put 68000+ECS into Amigas and the CDTV in the early 90s. If they had brought out a proper 68020+AGA console instead, it would have been a big hit. The Amiga chipset was originally designed for a gaming console yet the Amiga didn't make the crossover from a computer to a console until it was too late.

I think the cd32 was a last quick attempt to save commodore, but failing to launch in USA I think hurt it and the fact that too many games publishers did very quick A500 / A1200 ports, I mean I guess it was kinda ok to see the games on their but cd32 needed more exclusives and likely needed more power for the coming 3d gaming market.

One thing People never bring up about the cd32 is how it was one of the few console not to be a commission based machine.

So sega, Nintendo, PlayStation, Xbox, etc all games have to submitted to them companies to be reviewed for quality control and then kinda Co-published by them with a nice commission and then release in the same kinda case design usually all at the same price, so every game sold for the platform, they would get a cut.

Cd32 game case designs where all over the place, so I think that might of hurt the brand image, I did always like microprose game case, plus quality control on the games might of help, sometime less is more as Nintendo proves.

Anyway my point is the cd32 was £300 when it came out and games range from £10 to £30, so I wonder if it would of made a difference if the cd32 came out for £100 and all cd32 game where £30 to £40? And commodore made its money on the games?

Just a thought.

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@agami

There is no IDE in the CD32.

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@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: One thing People never bring up about the cd32 is how it was one of the few console not to be a commission based machine.

Furthermore, since it was basically an A1200 with CDROM drive instead of a hard drive, anyone with an A1200 could develop titles for it. Commodore even supplied CDROM and NVRAM libraries to make the A1200 look like a CD32.


Quote:

Anyway my point is the cd32 was £300 when it came out and games range from £10 to £30, so I wonder if it would of made a difference if the cd32 came out for £100 and all cd32 game where £30 to £40? And commodore made its money on the games?

Yeah, customers would have balked at higher game prices. The CD32 sold well so it seems the console price wasn't a problem.

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: https://amigang.com/cd32mini/ Cd32 was released in 1993, 2023 will be its 30th anniversaries and they already have the darker gamepad lined up, it wouldn’t be much work to make this. So would you be interested, would you get a collection of Amiga minis?

I voted no because I am not into 'minis' of any kind, but this project is better then the A500 mini IMO. No fake keyboard (which the CD32 didn't have) and a nice looking case without (I presume) a lid with dodgy hinge. If I was to get any 'mini' Amiga this would be it.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: I wonder if that Sony $15 audio CD-ROM mechanism is still available and what it costs today. If using the audio CD-ROM, the electronics for it would need to be in the Amiga chipset like the original CD32. This would probably require at least an FPGA but then this would give improved quality simulation instead of emulation. It could probably be created with an FPGA for cheap enough but the performance and general purpose computing would be lacking compared to a Raspberry Pi. This could be fixed with an ASIC and could reduce production cost but would require time and development cost.

Let's be realistic - this won't happen. Just put a Pi in a mini 'CD32' case, plug in a USB stick with ISO image on it and be done with it.

@amigang

Ha. Great idea. I guess this would be like the VIC20 version of the C64 Mini - ie the same machine just a different case (and yes I do know that was the maxi variant).

It would depend on sales of the A500Mini.

A3000Mini?

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@amigang

The A500 Mini IS a CD32 mini IMHO. It plays AGA games (although the talkie version of Simon the Sorceror is missing for some reason) and has the reimagined control pad. Buy two black 'The GamePad' units and rehouse the mobo in a 3D printed mini CD32 shell and you'd never know!

The only reason it's a A500 form factor is that more people remember that home computer/gaming machine but without a functional keyboard and with 040 like performance, 8mb Fast Ram, AGA and targeted at the living room space it's closer to a CD32 IMHO.

Last edited by BigD on 02-Apr-2022 at 01:42 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

CD32 Mini is similar to THEA500 Mini

Well I'm not really demanding an ARM driven Amiga emulator in a retro case.

If they would sell this 'RasPI Mini + AOS3.x + games' for a reasonable price ( < 60€ ) I might have bought one, but I would not spend an extra bug for a case resembling one oft the original Amigas.

If there would have been some extras (WiFi, Ethernet, full USB HDMI+Mass-Storage ) I would pay some extras but not for such cases, they are a waste of space.

@amigang

Only if the keyboard works!

But, what would it load, 3 inch CDs?

I imagine a USB or SD slot in the CD slot would be suitable for modern times.

Looking at your games, some look like A500 ones, so I think just including AGA ones would suit a CD32.

After all, one bought a CD32 to get the exclusive CD32 titles, as well as the best AGA version.

Last edited by Hypex on 02-Apr-2022 at 03:53 PM.

@agami

Quote:

The world's first CD-based and 32-bit game console. The world didn't seem to care.

That's because it wasn't made for the world. It was made for Amiga users. That's obvious for making a console out of the Amiga which is ironic as it was first conceived to be a games machine.

Lets's face it. By 1994 2d was almost dead. And the Amiga CD32 was using an updated 1985 design. Not even AGA could compete with dedicated 2d consoles from the start of the decade. It was too simple and yet too over complicated. It didn't have enough playfields, nor enough sprites and it didn't have any tilemaps. 4 channels of PCM audio was nice but when computers ten years before had PCM as well as multi-channel FM it looked limiting. It made those 32 channel FM chips looks good against 4 channel audio.

The Akiko was a poor substitute against EGA planar hardware accceleration even. It only had chip ram which was silly. So a chunky feature needing manual non-DMA reads and writes to chip ram was a bad idea against the blitter.

Last edited by Hypex on 03-Apr-2022 at 05:51 PM.

@agami

Quote:

The world's first CD-based and 32-bit game console. The world didn't seem to care.

It was the biggest selling CD games format in the UK during the time it was on the market during C='s lifetime. It didn't have a coherent global launch but in Europe it was a success. If the supply chain hadn't been so long with manufacture in the Philippines they may have sold enough PAL units in Christmas 1993 to survive another year.

Why were they supply constrained? It wasn't as if it was bleeding edge technology! It's almost as if they gambled on the NTSC regions and then forgot to pay the XOR patent which cut them off from the USA leaving piles of unsold NTSC machines when the PAL regions were crying out for them! Only Commodore makes it possible!

Last edited by BigD on 02-Apr-2022 at 05:01 PM.

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bhabbott Quote:

Let's be realistic - this won't happen. Just put a Pi in a mini 'CD32' case, plug in a USB stick with ISO image on it and be done with it.

Just because attempts to bring back the Amiga as an expensive niche market desktop computer have failed doesn't mean that a cheaper mass produced Amiga is not viable. If cost reducing Amiga hardware, an embedded Raspberry Pi in a custom case isn't going to cut it because others can do the same and the result is an unimpressive emulated Amiga with too much competition. If it's the cost you think is not realistic, Retro Games Ltd likely spent over a million dollars to create and produce THEA500 Mini yet ended up with a gimmick. With a few million dollars more, it would be possible to do the same while creating much improved "Amiga" hardware without emulation, with better I/O and with full general purpose capabilities that offer better value. I haven't seen any Amiga entities with real investment opportunities but rather amateurs playing with their toys. If you mean it is unrealistic for Amiga entities to work together to save the legacy of the Amiga and risk financial success, then point taken but I believe it is within the realm of possible for a small business. The most likely outcome of the war in Ukraine is an economic war that makes the European people poorer and where a cheaper mass produced Amiga like the old days during the end of the Cold War may look pretty good again and better yet if it is green saving on the electric bill. The Amiga bread and butter was computers for the masses in Europe. It should be easier to repeat today than with the original Amiga because people remember the Amiga.

BigD Quote:

It was the biggest selling CD games format in the UK during the time it was on the market during C='s lifetime. It didn't have a coherent global launch but in Europe it was a success. If the supply chain hadn't been so long with manufacture in the Philippines they may have sold enough PAL units in Christmas 1993 to survive another year. Why were they supply constrained? It wasn't as if it was bleeding edge technology! It's almost as if they gambled on the NTSC regions and then forgot to pay the XOR patent which cut them off from the USA leaving piles of unsold NTSC machines when the PAL regions were crying out for them! Only Commodore makes it possible!

Considering CBM's financial situation, they should have only made PAL CD32s for at least 6 months. We know the European CD32 launch was a success but it's pretty easy for us to look back and see that the North American launch was going to be lackluster due to lack of sales channels and a saturated console market. Add the early NTSC CD32 production to the list of mistakes along with 68000+ECS Amiga 600 production instead of 68020+AGA Amiga 1200 production.

Last edited by matthey on 02-Apr-2022 at 05:33 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 02-Apr-2022 at 05:30 PM.

@amigang

The fact that it doesn't have a non-functional keyboard is a big plus, but the non-functional CD drive is a minus. A case with retro-Amiga styling and no fake appendages would be nice.

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@BigD

Quote:

It's almost as if they gambled on the NTSC regions and then forgot to pay the XOR patent which cut them off from the USA leaving piles of unsold NTSC machines when the PAL regions were crying out for them!

As we know the XOR patent was a total scam. Did they even proove the Amiga hardware used XOR in sprites? I don't think so! It had real sprites. Not some primitive trick. The only way they could get caught on this is, which doesn't make it any more legitimate, is with machines like the C16 and C64 with flashing cursors. But they stopped producing those for almost a decade after.

@agami
I worked on an unreleased CD32 edutainment title, so I was very hopeful about its success. Looking back I just think it probably was too little late. 3D may have been laughably primitive in those days, but we forget 3D isn't just about the appearance of things but also of moving within a 3d space. There was an expectation that systems of the CD32's generation would either play video if CD based or would have some rudimentary 3D capabilities if cartridge based, and it only took playing a few minutes of an FMV based game before that novelty quickly wore off. Star Fox and DOOM on the SNES and Virtua Racing on the Mega looked and, more importantly, felt more like the future of gaming than anything being shown for the CD32...
But the real fatal flaw of the CD32 was barely exposed by the low numbers shifted. It was IMHO doomed by the NTSC/PAL timings which forced games to run at different resolutions in different markets. Sure, as computer users we were long used to Amiga games having either a black bar or useless graphic at the bottom of the display. I don't think the gaming press even considered that flashy UK games wouldn't look correct running on NTSC machines, or that NTSC titles wouldn't fill the screen when running on PAL hardware. Japanese companies didn't have this problem to consider when approaching the US market, and SEGA had cleverly avoided a PAL timings issue with the Mega. I just don't see either region's console press giving a pass to games developed for a different timing. If the CD32 could have stretched or squashed the output without significant detail loss and latency it would have still been severely handicapped by its inability to shift polygons compared to the 3DO and Jaguar.

etherius Quote:

I worked on an unreleased CD32 edutainment title, so I was very hopeful about its success. Looking back I just think it probably was too little late. 3D may have been laughably primitive in those days, but we forget 3D isn't just about the appearance of things but also of moving within a 3d space. There was an expectation that systems of the CD32's generation would either play video if CD based or would have some rudimentary 3D capabilities if cartridge based, and it only took playing a few minutes of an FMV based game before that novelty quickly wore off. Star Fox and DOOM on the SNES and Virtua Racing on the Mega looked and, more importantly, felt more like the future of gaming than anything being shown for the CD32...

Welcome. The CD32 hardware is superior to the SNES hardware, especially the CPU.

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44218&forum=14&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#843126 Quote:

The SNES Doom engine is likely more advanced than the Dread engine but suffers from low resolution more than Dread. Dread looks closer to a Wolfenstein engine but a little more advanced. The Amiga 68000 CPU is actually a better comparison to the SNES CPU. Ricoh 5A22 @ 3.58MHz (based on 65C816 which is a 16 bit version of the 6502) accumulator architecture - 16 bit ALU, 8 bit data bus, 24 bit address bus 16 bit Accumulator, X index, Y index and SP registers no caches no hardware multiplication or division instructions 68000 @ 7.16MHz CISC reg-mem architecture- 16 bit ALU, 16 bit data bus, 24 bit address bus, 32 bit D0-D7, A0-A7 (16 GP registers) no caches 16*16, 32/16 68EC020 @ 14.32MHz CISC reg-mem architecture - 32 bit ALU, 32 bit data bus, 24 bit address bus, 32 bit D0-D7, A0-A7 (16 GP registers) 256B ICache 16*16, 32*32, 32/16, 32/32, 64/32 The 68000 is not high performance for it's frequency so the the matchup with the 5A22 is closer than it first appears but the 68000 has a better ISA, nicer features and better code density. The 68EC020 outclasses the 5A22 and should be several times better performance. SNES hardware may be better than ECS but AGA looks more competitive. Maybe the SNES is closer to the performance of a 68000 with AGA?

Star Fox and Doom required an expensive and more modern SuperFX chip in each cartridge which basically added a newer CPU and it still didn't blow the CD32 hardware away. These games were very low resolution and cut down on the SNES which looks poor today even if it may have seemed more futuristic back then. The following link from the same thread has information on how cut down SNES Doom was.

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44218&forum=14&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#843112

The CD32 could have played Doom as well, if not better than the SNES but a cut down and optimized version was never created. There is a game for ECS Amigas called Dread that is roughly on par with SNES Doom and the 68020+AGA of the CD32 is capable of more. If the CD32 had had 2MiB of fast memory to go with the 2MiB of chip memory, the PC version of Doom could have been ported and should have been as playable as the SNES version with minimal changes.

etherius Quote:

But the real fatal flaw of the CD32 was barely exposed by the low numbers shifted. It was IMHO doomed by the NTSC/PAL timings which forced games to run at different resolutions in different markets. Sure, as computer users we were long used to Amiga games having either a black bar or useless graphic at the bottom of the display. I don't think the gaming press even considered that flashy UK games wouldn't look correct running on NTSC machines, or that NTSC titles wouldn't fill the screen when running on PAL hardware. Japanese companies didn't have this problem to consider when approaching the US market, and SEGA had cleverly avoided a PAL timings issue with the Mega. I just don't see either region's console press giving a pass to games developed for a different timing. If the CD32 could have stretched or squashed the output without significant detail loss and latency it would have still been severely handicapped by its inability to shift polygons compared to the 3DO and Jaguar.

Many consoles were played on TVs instead of monitors back then and the Amiga output was nearly compatible with TVs out of the box. Many other consoles had modes for NTSC and PAL for the same reason and some had regional compatibility problems as well. It may have been possible to eliminate some of these problems with a little more planning. Some games ran fine on both NTSC and PAL CD32s while others had separate NTSC and PAL versions. With all the space on a CD, there should be enough space for both the NTSC and PAL versions of the game but many games were cheap shovelware of existing Amiga games.

The 1993 CD32 had better hardware than the SNES (1991) or Mega/SegaCD (1991) but was inferior to the 3DO (1993), Atari Jaguar (1993), Sega Saturn (1994), Sony Playstation (1994) and Nintendo 64 (1996). The CD32 hardware was not high performance when it was released but it was low cost and could have been cost reduced further. It was very easy to develop for and retained good compatibility with existing Amigas allowing for quick to market software. The 3DO had nice hardware but was too expensive and the marketing strategy never caught on. The Atari Jaguar hardware was overrated, buggy and difficult to program resulting in few games. The CD32 was still competitive in 1993 but should have been released in 1992 and/or had +2MiB of fast memory and IDE on board.