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Poll : Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Yes, I would Join! £30
Yes, for less
Maybe
No
Bad idea, I have a better one....
Pancakes!
 
PosterThread
OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 7:32:11
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

there should be a standardization commitee that defines the APIs that are implemented on the platforms and the minimum set of libraries. The commitee would needed to include the different camps (AROS, AOS, MorphOS). And then define tests how to be defined as "Amiga compatible". That would in my view make most sense here. Unfortunately this will not happen and be it because of big egos involved.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 7:34:17
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@Trixie

a lot of other people either... that would not be a global alliance. If you want to do that you can already try it. The problem is that I think Ben H. is asking for a lot more money than anybody can collect and much more money than AmigaOS is worth. Otherwise Trevor D. propably already have bought AmigaOS instead of financing the reimplementation of it.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Sep-2022 at 07:47 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 7:45:49
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@matthey

68k is retro. I like 68k obviously, it is fun to do things with it (and the huge 68k amiga software base). But ii depends on how you define future. As long as you want to cover only the retro market perfect but if you want to offer devices who are taken serious and not only nostalgic toys you need f.e. full memory protection. Then the old platform looses many of its advantages and differences to mainstream platforms. And even if the hardware would become powerful enough as ASIC (what has to be seen) it still would miss most of the software that is available on other platforms. 68k is retro niche, that includes Vampire and PiStorm. It can grow of course, but still niche.

My vision is merging with a mainstream platform like Linux (in my case AROS), that potentially would give advantages. What is currently called "NG" is only halfway done. I know why it was decided but in my view it was a mistake. Now it is difficult to change.

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Hans 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 8:07:52
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4985
From: New Zealand

@matthey
Quote:
Performance is not as important as compatibility as the 68k+chipset market has shown. The divergent hardware problem is solvable by returning to the 68k+chipset standard and improving value so people don't want foreign hardware. The AmigaOS would come with this standard hardware so there would be little incentive to use an AmigaOS clone. Failing to return to the 68k+chipset to unite everyone will make it difficult to create interoperability standards as competitors diverge to different goals.

I think using 68K as a common ISA would work, but don't think that physical classic hardware is an option. They're already gone on all NG Amigas. A common API would be helpful. Right now the graphics.libraries are compatible to 3.x level, and diverged when it comes to handling RTG cards and chunky/truecolour bitmaps. Audio is also messy, as are dockies, notifications, etc.

I'm interested in seeing more modern features rather than limiting everything to classic hardware + FPGA extensions. Karlos' MC64K ISA would be an interesting addition too.

@trixie
Quote:
Ditto - but I doubt David Pleasance is interested in OS4/NG very much, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Some are interested in moving the platform forward; others prefer to reminisce over the "good old days" and share war stories.

@OlafS25
Quote:
The problem is that I think Ben H. is asking for a lot more money than anybody can collect and much more money than AmigaOS is worth

Or maybe he's not interested in selling and walking away.

Hans

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 9:14:09
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@Hans

Quote:
now the graphics.libraries are compatible to 3.x level,


that’s maybe true for graphics.library, but for intuition.library I know layers are not compatible, and screen open, behaves different, if you don’t set mode ID in tag list on OS3.x you get planar screen, if do not set mode id in tag list on AmigaOS4.x you get a chunky screen, even when fake planar screen exists. There are minefields to watch out for. DBPAL and DBNTSC mode ids don’t exist in fake planar screens. There also seems to be a problem with different types of double buffering, tricks.
Bytes Per Row is wrong, screen dimensions are wrong. Hard coded games and programs. Can’t cope.

Vista Pro is system friendly and should be working on AmigaOS4.x but is not working.
Patching the exe so uses a hires+laced mode can be a solution, for AmigaOS4.x, but it should be fixed in the OS.

Backwards compatibility has probably got a backseat, more important stuff has gotten a lot of attention.

RAW keys is a also another problem, PC keyboards uses different RAW keys then Amiga keyboards, and games/software is sometimes hard coded. Maybe intuition library should be translating RAW keys depending on if its a PPC or 68K program. (Should be easy to do, as 68k programs always use the 68K jump table.) Of course, any game with setup screen should be able to handle it. its not sure if there should be pillows up in developer’s armpits or not. (Maybe that’s Norwegian saying that don’t translate to English well.) hemm.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:43 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:37 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:27 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:24 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:20 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:18 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:17 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:15 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 9:34:41
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@OlafS25

A programmer guide line, and developer resource, a committee where can be good idea.
buying up old games and software, open sourcing it to the community. Putting people on a payroll be good idea, to port games, like Hyperion used to do. Getting people committed to monthly fee, so that might happen.

It might be more interesting to AmigaOS4 / MorphOS / AROS, then Classic Amiga users, but someone had talent to make enchanted versions with higher resolutions and better graphics, not just stretched to larger surface, then maybe few 68K / Classic Amiga users might interested too.

Blood.net is one games I have my eyes on, really like a updated system friendly version of it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 02:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 10:04 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 09:49 AM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 9:52:49
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Anyway, it's impressive your knowledge about Italian: quite rare for a stranger / non-speaker.




MEGA_RJ_MICAL TRIUMPHS AGAIN




/MRJM, polyglot, polymath

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Trixie 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 14:10:58
#48 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2065
From: Czech Republic

@OlafS25

Quote:
The problem is that I think Ben H. is asking for a lot more money than anybody can collect and much more money than AmigaOS is worth. Otherwise Trevor D. propably already have bought AmigaOS instead of financing the reimplementation of it.

I may be wrong but I get the feeling that System54 is more of an AmigaKit-driven initiative, while Trevor mainly finances the development of the kernel. I very much doubt that the people behind Exec SG are making irreversible changes that would tie the kernel to System54 and make it impossible to use it with the regular OS4, should the official development ever get restarted.

Sorry for the off-topic.

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Bosanac 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 15:40:16
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

@Trixie

I don’t get System54.

Why would anyone who refused to use MorphOS because “It doesn’t have the name” and/or “it isn’t based on the original code” want to use another OS that is also neither of those things*?

Especially when considering the much more mature MorphOS already works on their X5000, Sam460 and Pegasos II hardware.

It just leaves X1000 and Eyetech owners, but that leads us back to the first point “System 54/MorphOS isn’t teh reeeel!!!!”

*Genuine question.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 15:44:38
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@Bosanac

Because we have no choice, half what you need for video acceleration is in the enhancement pack 2.2.
(System54 lite)

So we just have to report bugs, until it works as it should. or not install everything.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 03:54 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 03:53 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 03:52 PM.

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Bosanac 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 15:53:21
#51 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Wouldn’t using a much more mature OS such as MorphOS be a more logical choice?

How much do you get fleeced for Enhancer pack and it’s constant new releases? Just offer that money to the MorphOS devs to implement anything you feel is missing. You get free OS updates for life.

Not to mention a functioning web browser ;)

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 15:55:04
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@Trixie

at the moment it is a distribution like amikit only replacing parts of the original files. It is of course a speculation but I assume on the long run they want to replace all original files to get rid of Hyperion. By redoing virtually everything it is a expensive and time-consuming strategy (if I am right of course).

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 15:56:32
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@Bosanac

No because won’t have video acceleration, and MorphOS does work my machine. And frankly, it’s about as mature as AmigaOS4.1, it won’t be upgrade.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 15:57:43
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@Bosanac

we had this discussion already

Aros is migrating/merging with Linux on midtern/longrun, how about you then dropping MorphOS because Aros is offering more software and is running on a mainstream OS with professional support?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Sep-2022 at 03:59 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 16:06:38
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Cloanto legal case with Hyperion puts owner ship in doubt, and if Cloanto wins, they might demand fee for using the Amiga name, they also talked about open source ‘ing AmigaOS, AmigaKits business (and theoretically Hyperion) is selling and putting revenues back into development. (of course, Hyperion has spent all their money on legal battles, instead. And thanks to Cloanto, failed to grow there business when Amiga Inc case ended.)

Clean room implementation means getting out of the legal swamp. Buying up Hyperion’s assets means they can end up in legal battle with Cloanto. And then your back to square 1.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:08 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 16:17:30
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

I am not sure if the legal cases are the only reason why Hyperion failed. My impression is that even without the results would not be better. Ben H. in my view is only interested in making money for himself and not interested in the platform. I never met him personally so this is my impression from the outside. There was also never any strategy communicated or idea where the platform should be developed. What will happen if ever the court case ends we will see. And in my view it is also open what Cloanto "might" do if they win it. First there was indeed discussion about open source amigaos (it can only be 3.1), later if I remember right it was said all rights would go to a foundation which would be responsible for development. In my view all is in the dust. And the court case can continue for years because at least Ben H. can live with current situation as long he can sell 3.2 (or perhaps 3.3) licenses for 68k and make money. All development done for free. The rest of the company propably only is a official "address" so costs close to zero.

Clean room certainly is the option with least risks but also lots of work and expenses. The problem I see is that AmigaOS now is owned by several entities including Ben H. (Hyperion), Trevor D. (Aeon) and Cloanto and perhaps (unpaid) software developers. So it is a big legal mess.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:20 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 16:27:47
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
Ben H. in my view is only interested in making money for himself and not interested in the platform.


Ben H. ended up divorced because of legal cases, Ben H. did not have money so he tock money from AEON so it was claimed, I doubt you make case he become rich. It steams to me everyone like to vilify him, maybe he is an asshole, and cruck I don’t know him. But doubt he made any money.

He did not run his business well, most of the OS updates where free.

In many places people talk about how tiny the NG market is, yet clime you some get rich in this market?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:38 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:38 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:37 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:29 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 16:33:37
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

where do you know how much money he got? But whatever... AmigaOS stucks in legal mud and even if the court case is decided I would be not sure if the situation is better

In this context redoing everything as clean room implementation makes sense but also means it will need a long time and a lot of money.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 16:35:25
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@OlafS25

There is lot of volunteering and free work in there.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Sep-2022 16:35:51
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

"rich" is here relative... but with 3.1.4. and 3.2 updates he certainly made some money. He had no expenses (f.e. for development) and could sell it at almost 100% profit. It was I think 30 EUR, bought by 1000 users you would make 30.000 EUR profit. Not a millionaire but some money. 1000 is only a number, it could be much more. The "classic" market is a lot bigger than "NG".

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Sep-2022 at 04:37 PM.

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