@Trixie

Just a curious question, as I am currently on a sam flex and debating wheather or not to try and obtain an juggernaught of an expensive piece of hardware for Amiga OS4.1 FE to hopefully make my life easier when it comes to videos and even some QT software and what not else to run.

Question is, your x5000/20 are there any slow downs noticeable for video playback, and ot using QT software?
Have you tried AmiCygnix, is it still somewhat laggy or is it not as noticeable as your sam machine in comparison.

Cheers and thank you for any information given.

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@agami

Quote:

My point has less to do with price and more to do with consumer abuse. Even at €‎500 a pop, neither version of reality is savoury because of the unchanging nature of what is being pushed onto the consumer. The willingness of the consumer does not excuse the behavior of the producer.

Nobody is being misled ove the price and performance of the hardware os it's difficult to call pricing some kind of consumer abuse. I don't think there is anyone, including Max and Enricho, who would disgree that a much lower price would be a preferable situation.

Quote:

Does the absence of competition excuse the producer for not maintaining the consumer value proposition over the past 8 years?

If there was another company producing similar hardware compatible with OS4 I boubt they'd be able to offer significantly better pricing.

This high prices aren't to do with with a lack of competition or a desire to extract as much money out of the consumer as possible. The problem with OS4 hardware is that it's never been produced in the kind of numbers required to achieve some sort of economy of scale.

The hardware would need to be produced in at least tens of thousands to get the price breaks needed to offer a lower cost board to the market. That is where the Amiga market runs into problems. Firstly, is there the money to produce in those kind of numbers, and secondly could you sell enough boards to at least break even in a reasonable timeframe.

Something that I think both Acube and A-EON should have done would have been to come up with a target price, work out the numbers needed and do a Kickstarter. If it failed they've at least got a better idea of the number of potential customers and haven't taken any risk.

@Rob

Stockholm Syndrome much?

Yes. Producing things in higher volumes reduces the per unit price.
You know what else reduces per unit pricing? Progress.

If I’m producing a custom board in small quantities with a specific BoM in 2014 and my retail price is Cost of Produced HW (which includes amortized development and small qty tax) x 3 = €‎500,
And then I make another small batch of the same hardware based on pretty much the same BoM in 2018, are you telling me none of the materials have reduced in price? Are you also telling me that I should again recoup my development costs, accounted for in 2014-2017 sales?
And then I dust off that old design again in 2022, and with minimal new dev costs that need to be amortized across the last batch, I still charge the same price + inflation + price increases due to supply chain impacts?

Just because AmigaOS 4 users are willing participants in the con, does not mean the people behind the hardware sales are not con artists.

Misleading, being one form of manipulation, can itself take on many forms.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

So, can anyone answer my question, be it 460LE as the thread or x5000/20 or x5000/40,

I suspect the latter two will obvioulsy make difference for not only video playback but the Amiga OS4.1FE probably runs like a dream on those when it comes to CPU intensive tasks.

But, I am curious if lag is still noticeable when using AmiCygnix, or video playback on said systems.

If I had such a system I wouldn't even be asking.

My sam is running at 800mhz, well, 799mhz according to Ranger haha, and for many tasks its useable and ok.

But for video forget it, and for AmiCygnix there is slow down but indeed useable surprisingly, anything QT also forget it.

Here's a GPU benchmark from GfxBench2d made by the famous Hans De Ruiter
http://hdrlab.org.nz/benchmark/gfxbench2d/OS/AmigaOS/Result/2523

was going to give flops data via image, but er, well, cant do it?? Amiga os thing perhaps.

FLOPS

1 2.8422e-14 0.2423 57.7692
2 2.5047e-13 0.1488 47.0588
3 -7.6605e-15 0.1961 86.6932
4 2.2771e-13 0.1930 77.7328
5 3.8747e-14 0.3759 77.1405
6 7.5495e-15 0.3273 88.919
7 -1.1369e-13 0.3116 38.5155
8 1.2612e-13 0.3372 88.9713

Iteration = 128000000
NullTime (usec) = 0.0234
MFLOPS(1) = 55.3283
MFLOPS(2) = 58.8933
MFLOPS(3) = 73.6096
MFLOPS(4) = 86.3711


HENCE my original question I'd like answers from users of higher end gear.

Question ONE would be, if someone within the community decided to try and obtain a sam460, or better said a sam with 1.10ghz CPU, is video playback perhaps still not really plausible on such a device?

If TRUTHFUl answer is not really good enough but doable with frame drops, then I would assume the only other systems available or to consider would be an x1000 that might be up for sale or an x5000/20 or x5000/40...

And if those also dont really have smooth video playback, then please be truthful as I am considering a potential upgrade down the line for my modern gen Amiga experiences.

Thank you kindly.

@Hypexed I'm curious what your FLOPS would be from an x1000, by memory you were a beta tester years back.

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@Gebrochen

If you can ignore the fact there is an Arm CPU in it and if you like PS3 style media bars to run your content rather than ALWAYS Workbench apps then THEA500 Mini can run videos seamlessly at 720p when using Pandory. I honestly don't see the point of investing in a Sam spec low end AmigaOne that can't match this at the price point. After all, running AmigOS 4.x CANNOT IMHO be considered the killer app for buying an AmigaOne!

Edit. I understand that THEA500 Mini is not network capable and downloading videos on an external device, converting them to MKV 720p videos and playing them off a FAT32 memory stick on the Mini isn't for everyone but it DOES work well.

Last edited by BigD on 14-Feb-2023 at 04:55 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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@Gebrochen

Quote:

are there any slow downs noticeable for video playback

On my system, I can play a FullHD / H.264 file with less than 10% CPU power used. This is with the Emotion media player and hardware acceleration (va.library). However, a 4K / H.265 file is a bit too much, and the playback turns into a slideshow. A faster gfx card might yield better results - mine is a lowly RX 560 (a low-power model).

Quote:

Have you tried AmiCygnix, is it still somewhat laggy or is it not as noticeable as your sam machine in comparison.

AmiCygnix 1.7 is certainly better than on my Sam440ep-Flex. It's not completely smooth but very usable. I only use AbiWord, though, and writing documents in it is fine. I only wish AmiCygnix's display driver supported 32-bit screens.

Quote:

using QT software?

Sorry, I'm somewhat lagging behind the developements, and I haven't tried out any QT software yet.

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@BigD

You do realise Ive had this since it came out yeah? Which means back in 2008 / 2009 the A500 mini wasnt even out yet?

Also to point out yeah your right i'll just use my mobile phone for video, oh wait, Amiga OS4.x isnt on there and nor is that immersive experience of using the Operating system.

My point was about considering an alterantive to not need to turn on my laptrop, or use my phone, and enjoy the Amiga OS environment more fully not just for VIDEO but also the software part, limited as it is.
Like the Amicygnix environment works ok, but QT not so hot.

Having said that, since I turned down my 16m colours to 64k colour scheme I have noticed an overall difference in system useage.
(Yeah been about 3 or 4 years since I properly used the NG system, been having fun with my 68k stuff, went away from Amiga land for a while, Im starting to remember why, many users seem hell bent to keep away any possible new comer, or in my case an existing Amiga user who as a child used to use his fathers A1000, both when he was alive and then died.

But thank you for such insightfulness, I couldve worked this one out myself though logically.

(EDIT)
P.S. I thought you would have been wiser to realise Im an old user, and this SAM was fine at the time of purchase to atleast get the Amiga OS4.x experience, but even back then, naturally not that good with video playback.

SO

Now I just was thinking of some form of upgrade.

According to a friend he has a pegasos 2 that can run 720p Youtube vids, so, in my mind I figured maybe the sam460LE could do the job, since at Amigans.net Ive read nothing but a HORRIFYING experience with the X5000 line up of boards.

Haha perhaps the remainder of the boards to sell are just Giant paperweights unfrotunately.

Last edited by Gebrochen on 15-Feb-2023 at 11:44 AM.

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Flex is 800mhz
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AmiKit 12
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@Trixie

Very respectful for someone to give me a fair answer, and more towards what I was looking for.

As you yourself have a sam flex, is there any particular downloads available on os4depot that might help for better video playback?

And in you opinion, would the sam 460 boards be overclockable to something higher than 1.10ghz, say like to 1.3 or 1.4ghz even?

I had an FX-8350 and had that running at a constant clock speed overclocked, believe it was 4.34ghz haha.

Anyhow my current desktop is a dream, AMD 5900x, 12 core beast, and this lead me to thinking, could I have a similar experience with considering an upgrade to the higher end in Amiga land.

Again you've kind of answered these questions.

Unfortunately, in the other forum, Amigans.net, it seems there are no current reliable x5000 resellers, or so, atleast this is my take on it.

Your thoughts on perhaps trying to obtain an older x5000/20 board which seemed to be more sound than their current x5000/40s theyre trying to sell?

Thank you again Trixie

Have a Great upcoming weekend

_________________
Courtesy of SAM440Flex & Amiga OS4.1 only
Flex is 800mhz
A1000 with Classic 520 Amiga OS3.2.1
AmiKit 12
MorphOS PowerBook G4 (which can play youtube vids)

https://blitterwolf.blogspot.com

@Gebrochen

Hi there,

I see that you are seeking information concerning video-playback (and more) on the Sam 440 Flex.

Here is a link to an article by Sailor on a Czech Amiga forum:

https://www.amigaportal.cz/node/149415

She has tested the Flex with several different graphics cards to measure the performance. With adapters you can actually use more modern PCI-E cards with this computer, which means that the graphics drivers from A-EON will work.

Hope that article can be of help to you. It is possible to upgrade the Flex, but it will be of course still be limited by the CPU it has.

I own a Sam 440 Flex myself and use it every week. Added an SSD to it a while ago and the computer feels responsive and fast. Hollywood Designer runs great, as well as plenty of games and other software. If you don't have an SSD installed, I highly recommend it.

As for video, I have tried various solutions to get better performance, but it is not very good. I can play a DVD though, as well as more simple video formats. We've had some discussions on how to optimize video for the Sam over at Amigans.net, if you are interested:

https://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?start=0&topic_id=9046&order=ASC&status=&mode=0

Also, Kas1e made a video about his Sam460 build and at the end of the video, he shows how well it plays video with the A-EON graphics card drivers:

https://youtu.be/X75KbnOpZhA?t=2233

Maybe that can be of help to you on whether to go Sam460 or stay Flex.

Last edited by AmigaOldskooler on 15-Feb-2023 at 03:19 PM.
Last edited by AmigaOldskooler on 15-Feb-2023 at 03:17 PM.
Last edited by AmigaOldskooler on 15-Feb-2023 at 03:17 PM.

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@Gebrochen

Quote:

But thank you for such insightfulness, I couldve worked this one out myself though logically.

Since the main way of viewing any video is in full screen with no borders, I wouldn't have thought it mattered whether you were playing a 720p video under a Workbench program, QuickTime on a Mac or under Pandory on THEA500 Mini! The cost of "upgrading" a Sam machine will be prohibitively expensive (plus the 460LE are by their very name 'Limited' in the amount if units available at this final Sam 460 release)! THEA500 Mini looks like a real Amiga and the usage is pleasant as a media player PS3 style media bar. I don't see the value in using an exotic AmigaOne machine shoehorned to play videos personally. There is no video acceleration on AmigaOnes period in hardware unless you own Enhancer and the right video card and I'm not even sure that's tailored for the low end Sams though the A1222 Plus will be supported.

It all sounds like a fools errand IMHO but then you seem to know that and you are doing it for the fun of using AmigaOS even if you can't see a Workbench window because that would spoil the immersion!

Last edited by BigD on 15-Feb-2023 at 04:34 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Gebrochen

Quote:

at Amigans.net Ive read nothing but a HORRIFYING experience with the X5000 line up of boards.

The X5000 is a good and reliable board - few people have had serious problems with it. I've had mine for almost six years and it's been working without a hitch. The majority of X5000-related problems I've read about were related either to a depleted battery, a loose SATA cable, or to a bad choice of graphic card.

Like any computer hardware, AmigaOne boards sometimes fail. But the Amigans.net thread you're referring to, in which "horrifying experience with the X5000" is discussed, is actually related to the behaviour of a dealer who didn't handle a faulty board situation with professionalism you'd expect after you've paid over $2000. So the thread discussed a horrifying experience with user support and service, not with the X5000 in general.

Quote:

As you yourself have a sam flex, is there any particular downloads available on os4depot that might help for better video playback?

These days I only use my Sam Flex for testing my software. When it was my main and only OS4 machine, I used DvPlayer to play some lower-resolution videos, but that's about all.

Quote:

in you opinion, would the sam 460 boards be overclockable to something higher than 1.10ghz, say like to 1.3 or 1.4ghz even?

That really is a question for ACube. Try asking them.

Quote:

AMD 5900x, 12 core beast, and this lead me to thinking, could I have a similar experience with considering an upgrade to the higher end in Amiga land.

No, of course you couldn't

Quote:

it seems there are no current reliable x5000 resellers, or so, atleast this is my take on it.

That's because it's almost gone. The X5000/020 has sold out, and there are just a few X5000/040 boards left. If they weren't so darn expensive I'd call the situation a clearance sale

Quote:

Your thoughts on perhaps trying to obtain an older x5000/20 board which seemed to be more sound than their current x5000/40s theyre trying to sell?

Tricky question, really. The 040 model hasn't been in public use for very long, so there's not enough experience for me to tell if the 040 lives up to the quality of the 020. Also, the problem mentioned above - a dealer who sold an apparently faulty 040 and then played ostrich - doesn't instil much confidence into me. On the other hand, with a used 020 you'd have no guarantee either, so...

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@Trixie

Quote:

That's because it's almost gone. The X5000/020 has sold out, and there are just a few X5000/040 boards left. If they weren't so darn expensive I'd call the situation a clearance sale

Can you get a 040 in the nice Boing Ball case like the X5000/020 came in any more? The Amedia France case looks like an abomination IMHO!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Gebrochen

Quote:

Amiga OS4.x isnt on there and nor is that immersive experience of using the Operating system

Immersed into what? A turn or the millennium click-fest UX?

Back in the '90s, I got Amiga OS 3.x to support my workflow, and I was more productive on that platform than on either Windows 9x, Mac System 7.x, MacOS 8.x or MacOS 9.x.

Fast forward to 2023, after two decades of updated UX paradigms, UI conventions, and workflow optimisations; when I now use Amiga OS 3.9 I actually find it painful. There is nothing "immersive" left in using that OS, and I put up with it as a launch pad for accessing nostalgia quenching games and apps.
And I can imagine that the situation with AmigaOS 4.x is not much better.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

So, Amiga os3.9 is uncomparable to Amiga os4.1 FE, LITERALLY that's like comparing windows 95 to windows ten, you cant really, way too many better features available for ease of use have been added.

So no, Amiga os 4.1 FE is superior in some ways regarding the installation of things.

Like I've spent quiet some time now trying to set up my classic 520, now Im stuck with trying to get ide cd rom drive to work, etc, etc

Amiga OS4.1 FE surprisingly does a lot of things in Auto mode, whereas Amiga os 3.9 or 3.2.1 does not seem to from what I am experiencing of late.

I should have kept my classics as classics, without adding accelerator boards, and what not, even trying to connect to the internet is a hassle on 68k.

Amiga os4.1 FE again when I originally got it in 2008, with almost no real Amiga OS experience at the time (coz dadio took care of that, i was just playing games on our first Amiga back in the late 1980s) most of the set up process was straight forward and painless in comparison to ANY 68k system whereby I've tried installing extra items or things, or connecting to the internet, etc, etc

P.S.
You heading to AUG on Sunday? we can chat then too, haha. Ryan and Damo should be there too, you can ask them about their experiences with the modern Amiga os versus their classic systems.

Last edited by Gebrochen on 16-Feb-2023 at 08:56 AM.

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@BigD

Oh you only watch youtube in full screen haha

I usually have it running in the background while doing other things. And by that I mean, creating a list in Amiga writer for example. There are heaps of other examples but point made.

you're now gonna say, well then just use tune net, LOL, you're totally missing my point.

I'd simply like to be able to do the basics, which I know the Amiga OS4.1 FE can do, if I had the RICH money to get a higher end machine for that Operating System.

Full screen would only be needed for a movie, if you have time to waste to not do other things inbetween, like selling on gumtree another example, but I usually tend to listen and glance now and then at youtube music videos. Try Wasp Harder and faster song, haha, the one with the car chases, mad stuff.

Even tv shows I watch on windows dekstop, I skim through various tv shows that seem to have a lot of time wasting within them to get tot he point. A bit like this fun reply of mine.

Yes then there a good tv shows that you dont need to skim through that feel solid and not like utter time wasting jargon has been entered into the mix.

Anyway, I came online to investigate how to get my ide cd rom drive working properly with that classic 520, which atleast its powered and the classic 520 seems to know its there, just need to now perhaps DL from aminet some mounting software to mount it, @Agami which Amiga OS 4.1 FE seems to do automatically from a fresh install.

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Courtesy of SAM440Flex & Amiga OS4.1 only
Flex is 800mhz
A1000 with Classic 520 Amiga OS3.2.1
AmiKit 12
MorphOS PowerBook G4 (which can play youtube vids)

https://blitterwolf.blogspot.com

@Trixie

Thank you for all the information and your time.

I appreciate it and by the sounds of things I may need to be hopeful for the Tabor board then if the x5000 are pretty much sold out.

_________________
Courtesy of SAM440Flex & Amiga OS4.1 only
Flex is 800mhz
A1000 with Classic 520 Amiga OS3.2.1
AmiKit 12
MorphOS PowerBook G4 (which can play youtube vids)

https://blitterwolf.blogspot.com

@AmigaOldskooler

When I get the chance I will try your suggestions, as I have an adapter already, and 3 different cards.

the 9350 is only 3 benchmark on passmark versus the 130 benchmark of the 5450, so I had presumed things would run better based on that.

But then those cards were tested using windows and passmarks performance mark software perhaps, which may not be an accurate way to tell what would run better on an Amiga system.

my other card would be the 7770 radeon by gigabyte, but I think that one require power by memory, which means I really need to then also go to the hassle and change my psu, to the spare one I got from a friend.

technically if my old Radeon and last radeon card bought since now I am enjoying what nvidia has to offer for windows machines regarding gaming, is the R9 380, which I could try to see if it works, despite not being on Hans De Ruiters list of cards, after all, I havent gone out of my way, its just sitting there.

Thank you for the links.

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Courtesy of SAM440Flex & Amiga OS4.1 only
Flex is 800mhz
A1000 with Classic 520 Amiga OS3.2.1
AmiKit 12
MorphOS PowerBook G4 (which can play youtube vids)

https://blitterwolf.blogspot.com

@Gebrochen

Quote:

usually tend to listen and glance now and then at youtube music videos. Try Wasp Harder and faster song, haha, the one with the car chases, mad stuff

I'll check that out! Thanks.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Gebrochen

Quote:

I was going to give flops data via image, but er, well, cant do it?? Amiga os thing perhaps.

Depends how you went about. Did you try and upload it to an image hosting site and it failed to work on Odyssey for example? Or is the IMG button above not working any more?

Quote:

I'm curious what your FLOPS would be from an x1000, by memory you were a beta tester years back.

Yes I was and am still am. But FLOPS wasn't on the list. I wonder of it's too old. I pulled it off the depot and it was dated 2013, 10 years ago now. My X1000 was more newer back then. It loads up fine but just chews through my CPU. Nothing is output. In fact, I had running in the background, but then forgot it was there doing nothing and turned the computer off!

@Trixie

Quote:

However, a 4K / H.265 file is a bit too much, and the playback turns into a slideshow. A faster gfx card might yield better results - mine is a lowly RX 560 (a low-power model).

I'm pretty sure that the UVD module on your RX 560 is quite capable of 4K HEVC. However, we need to upgrade the avcodec library to a newer version to access the HEVC hardware codec.

H.264 4K videos should play back just fine, provided you don't run out of the limited 256 MiB VRAM that's visible to the CPU...

Hans

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