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      /  Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
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Lou 
Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 29-Mar-2023 17:33:03
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb6k6sJZ9k

I guess even the C64 can benefit from ARM accelerators...
AND
Upgraded SID chips...

Holy crap! 50 FPS!

https://github.com/frntc/RAD-Doom

Here is a more dedicated demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG2TMkBB6JU

Last edited by Lou on 29-Mar-2023 at 06:04 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 29-Mar-2023 at 05:37 PM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 29-Mar-2023 18:52:34
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 867
From: Unknown

@Lou

There is a big question around this idea:
Why expand a C64 with a Raspberry PI when a Raspberry PI without the C64 runs Doom better?

That's one of the reasons why I doesn't like the same idea on Amiga or why I believe a VampireV4 SL should be a better Amiga than a Vampire in an Amiga.

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Lou 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 29-Mar-2023 22:28:03
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@OneTimer1

I don't see this any different than a PPC accelerator for a 68k Amiga. Why did people buy those instead of a PPC Mac?

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Karlos 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 30-Mar-2023 5:26:53
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3847
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Lou

More to the point, the reason to do it is because it can be done. There never needs to be any further justification for such things.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

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Lou 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 30-Mar-2023 15:18:46
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

I find the current C64/128 scene much more exciting than Amiga right now.

My dream is for a faster, upgraded VDC but that project seems to have stalled.
The VDC itself could be turned into a full co-processor...but I'd be happy with at least sprites...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 30-Mar-2023 18:23:18
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12667
From: Norway

@Lou

I dont see it as the same thing at all, Im guessing its running Linux, and own OS, its more like attaching a PC to a C64, the C64 memory just becomes a frame buffer, something to copy to screen. The C64 just becomes display and keyboard controller.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 30-Mar-2023 21:28:59
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Lou

This is not running on a C64, it's running on a Raspberry Pi.

You can't compare this to (say) a vampire, because this expansion does not replace the actual CPU. It's a separate computer using a feature in the C64's 'Ultimax' configuration that lets the external CPU write directly into the C64's Video RAM (*). It's basically a Raspberry Pi using the C64's video chip as a graphics card.

Yeah, "because we can" - but I don't think it's very interesting. Basically just a proof of concept ("yes, you can use the VIC like that") with no real use. Unless you like playing Doom in a very bad resolution.

(* The C64 doesn't have actual video RAM, I'm simplifying things a lot here)

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Hammer 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 31-Mar-2023 8:31:36
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4897
From: Australia

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@OneTimer1

I don't see this any different than a PPC accelerator for a 68k Amiga. Why did people buy those instead of a PPC Mac?
K

Phase 5 PowerPC accelerators do not accelerate the legacy AmigaOS 68K.

AmigaOS 4.1 FE PowerPC's 68K emulator operates at the OS level that follows Apple's method.

Without classic MorphOS or classic AmigaOS 4.x PPC, Phase 5 PowerPC accelerators are largely useless doorstops!

The bare metal PiStorm-Emu68 accelerates legacy AmigaOS 68K that nearly follows the Transmeta's code morph x86 method. Transnmeta code morph and Emu68 are located below the OS. This is nearly the RISC x86 method.


Last edited by Hammer on 31-Mar-2023 at 09:53 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 31-Mar-2023 9:50:50
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4897
From: Australia

@cgutjahr


Quote:

cgutjahr wrote:
@Lou

This is not running on a C64, it's running on a Raspberry Pi.

You can't compare this to (say) a vampire, because this expansion does not replace the actual CPU. It's a separate computer using a feature in the C64's 'Ultimax' configuration that lets the external CPU write directly into the C64's Video RAM (*). It's basically a Raspberry Pi using the C64's video chip as a graphics card.

Yeah, "because we can" - but I don't think it's very interesting. Basically just a proof of concept ("yes, you can use the VIC like that") with no real use. Unless you like playing Doom in a very bad resolution.

(* The C64 doesn't have actual video RAM, I'm simplifying things a lot here)

Commodore (CSG, the fukup started under Jack Tramiel's leadership) didn't evolve the 65xx CPU family into Pentium-level performance.

Acorn designed the ARM RISC CPU family as a replacement for MOS/CSG 6502/6512 CPUs

Vampire's AC68080 has hardware accelerated 68K to RISC techniques. MC68060 has hardware accelerated 68K to RISC techniques.

Every modern X86 CPU has hardware-accelerated X86 CISC to RISC techniques.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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Hammer 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 31-Mar-2023 10:09:38
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4897
From: Australia

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
@Lou

There is a big question around this idea:
Why expand a C64 with a Raspberry PI when a Raspberry PI without the C64 runs Doom better?

That's one of the reasons why I doesn't like the same idea on Amiga or why I believe a VampireV4 SL should be a better Amiga than a Vampire in an Amiga.


A modern PC's Southbridge has an LPC bus and it has an entire retro ISA bus legacy support. https://hackaday.com/2023/03/23/isa-over-tpm-to-your-pc/
The modern PC can still run MS-DOS Doom with a SoundBlaster 16 ISA.

C64 with Raspberry PI expansion is an interesting "what if" when C64 is reduced into one of Southbridge's features with a modern hyper-fast 65xx CPU+NB.

Raspberry PI-based CPU accelerator for CSG/MOS 65xx and Motorola 68K CPUs reveals the fanbase's frustration with the fukcups by Commodore (CSG) and Motorola.

The modern PC still has retro PC support hidden inside its modern silicon.



Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2023 at 03:52 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2023 at 03:50 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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amigang 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 31-Mar-2023 10:23:35
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1998
From: Cheshire, England

@OneTimer1

So your one of them...Why climb a mountain? People.

I mean a better question is why are you on an Amiga forum a website about an out of date computer where now unfortunately the phone in your pocket is more powerful and can do most task quicker.

I think these hacks, mods and addon to the classic computers are amazing achievements and give new life to these old computers and it a way this stuff show you how far these old computers could be pushed and still can be pushed.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

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Hypex 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 1-Apr-2023 13:21:14
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11055
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Lou

I'm waiting for the for Plus/4 port with superior graphics. I mean, it's not like Doom uses C64 sprites. So lack of sprites ain't an issue, for once.

Quote:
I don't see this any different than a PPC accelerator for a 68k Amiga. Why did people buy those instead of a PPC Mac?


Because it plugged into an Amiga. It also let an Amiga run MacOS in software. Where as no hardware or software could run AmigaOS on a Mac.

But, the PPC CPU was used as a co-processor. It could run PPC code from inside AmigaOS. So it's similar to a Pi on a RAD but more tightly integrated. The RAD could take over and write to RAM. But the CPU is a 64 bit monster against the humble 8-bit 6510 in the C64. The only thing they have in common would be RISC load/store design and endianess. Nor much else. Can C64 code switch the ARM in and out at will and share system RAM?

This is probably closer to a ZZ9000 being able to run ARM code. Though I don't know if it suffers the same problems of context switching when it runs ARM code. Currently code cannot be compiled on Amiga from what I can tell so needs a computer with Linux to compile Arm-accelerated apps.

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Lou 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 3-Apr-2023 13:23:22
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

When a 68k Amiga runs PPC code, newsflash : it's not running 68k code.

This is no different than ANY PPC accelerator for a 68k amiga.

Does a C64 have an OS? No - not really. So IDC that the ARM chip is running an actual OS.

Would it make you whiners feel better if the ARM was emulating a 6510/8502/65816 that was then running a 6502 port of DOOM?

Last edited by Lou on 03-Apr-2023 at 02:09 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 03-Apr-2023 at 01:26 PM.

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rzookol 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 3-Apr-2023 15:31:59
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 312
From: Poland, Lublin

@Lou

GEOS is official OS for C64

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Lou 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 3-Apr-2023 18:15:05
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@rzookol

Quote:

rzookol wrote:
@Lou

GEOS is official OS for C64

LOL!

More C64's were sold without GEOS than with. It's also not a requirement for any app other than GEOS apps.

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OlafS25 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 3-Apr-2023 18:48:34
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@Lou

the only official os was the basic and even that was turned off by most software (games). Using Geos with C64 and 1541 without ram extensions was not really fun. It was quiet a achievement nevertheless. Many (including me) used hardware extensions like cartridges that accellerated f.e. the 1541 and had other new functionality. But all that always was individual.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Apr-2023 at 06:53 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Apr-2023 at 06:53 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Apr-2023 at 06:52 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Apr-2023 at 06:50 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 4-Apr-2023 12:44:37
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11055
From: Greensborough, Australia

The configuration of the C64 was the kernel and BASIC in ROM. Even if not using BASIC even games still used the kernel routines up to a point calling DOS or other routines. The kernel was the core OS while BASIC was presented as the user interface.

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OlafS25 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 4-Apr-2023 12:49:15
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@Hypex

and what was in that kernel? Software on C64 (mostly games) turned it off to get access to the full RAM

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Lou 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 5-Apr-2023 4:42:55
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Here's an impressive Wolfenstein3D-like game that runs on the stock C64...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5o02d-1iig

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Hypex 
Re: Expanded C64 crushes DOOM!
Posted on 5-Apr-2023 12:59:21
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11055
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

There was the usual hardware setup, ports management, screen routines, interrupts and DOS routines. In particular DOS routines would be important, although a fast loader would upload patch code to a 1541, because DOS can still be used for loading files. So the kernal sat at the topmost place at $E000 but could be switched out to RAM I read. So, with kernal pointers still intact, it could be switched in to load and switched back out to reclaim RAM. I recall the C64 had about 48K for use but the memory map wasn't linear with chips mapped inside. By comparison a Plus/4 offered about 60K in linear space, with 4K reserved on bottom, and TED mapped on top.

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