So it been fun reading some of the missed opportunities of the Amiga market in different areas, a lot of it I does feel is with the befit of hindsight, so I just thought what about a thread about the missed opportunities of the Amiga market right now are!

Last edited by amigang on 06-Sep-2024 at 12:58 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 06-Sep-2024 at 11:52 AM.

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@amigang

So I think not having AmgaOS legal messed cleaned up and allowing the community / companies to use AmigaOS in its projects. Prefect example is the Vampire Team and Amigakit, having to side step the Os and use AROS. Now this might not be any one companies fault, but I do think its a shame and a missed opportunity to not unite developers more and make it just easier to support the official OS. But this is a small missed opportunity thank to AROS.

Another one is Amiga Forever, I do think Cloanto have created a nice emulation package, but I think they not done much to expand the market, like where an official version for Android. I know there Ant Stream and having the Roms easy to purchase is nice, but I do think having a more complete offering would be nice, not just Android phone either, Chromebook now make up 4% of the desktop market.

Also the computer world has changed and programs like this now need to be on Store front but it not on Steam, Epic store, Microsoft store etc. It be cool if it was as then at least when people type in them store Classic gaming, Retro etc them people might stumble across the Amiga platform. ( Ant Stream I know kinda fills that gap a little, but some might just want emulator and may want serious software.

Online Amiga store selling Amiga software all in one place. I get why this would be really difficult and I think Amigakit are trying to make Amistore that solution. But so many games and software title are sold all over the place in the Amiga land. It be cool if they could all be found on one platform. All the other platform kinda have this now, even linux. Even if the dev doesn't want to be sold on that platform maybe even just a link from it would be handy so people could find stuff.

Amiga.com, I think its odd that nothing really be done with it, they don’t even promote Amiga forever, a500 mini or really anything on there, apart from follow the X account, which again only really promote Retro Game / Antstream stuff and haven't promoted the big Amiga shows in the Uk, like Kickstart UK, that they even sponsored. Just a little odd if you ask me. Again this only a very small missed opportunities as I guess most Amiga fan would know about these events but its a shame the official owners don’t do a little more.

That leads on to my last point, promoting what the Amiga was and is now, to the outside world. I think it would be good for the community and companies left in the Amiga scene to try and maybe make people aware where still going, there are many ways, there loads of tech podcast, youtubers and the like that might be convince to cover the Amiga market at least once on there channel. There are retro show and other events where I feel Amiga should have a present as a few examples.

Last edited by amigang on 06-Sep-2024 at 09:10 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 06-Sep-2024 at 11:59 AM.

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@amigang

There is no opportunities in the amiga market.

It's only a few cents here and there to earn for very big effort to create something that still sucks compared to what you can get if you spend the money elsewhere.

I think a big one of missed opportunities is how sceptic resellers are about new products.

Often resellers are not willing to take ANY but ultimate-short-term-risks while people creating a new product take long-term-risks. Note this does not apply to all resellers, but to a lot of them.

If you buy 20 copies of x you do not have to sell them immediately to make a profit, you just have to sell them - even if it takes some months.

Products only available in certain countries (let's say Germany) cause people from other continents to not buy them (shipping costs etc.). This causes less profit on such products. Which causes less products.

It is sort of a "death spiral".

Other missed opportunities might be due to certain stuff missing. Investments there would be good (of course easily said, someone has to DO the investments).

Infighting is also causing missed opportunities. I myselves try to work with (nearly) everyone (well, no MorphOS versions from me, but asides from that try to support everything on Amiga). I can understand when someone says with THAT direction of Amiga I cannot work - but the opposite "I only can work with THIS VERY SPECIFIC direction" - I think this causes missed opportunities.

@MagicSN

My dream Amiga machine would be a triple boot between Amiga 3.x, Amiga 4.x, and MorphOS. Too bad new generation A1200s are not available on the market. I’m surprised a Kickstarter hasn’t been created for such a machine.

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@AmigaMac

I guess its possible if you created a custom linux install. That started EUAE, but it might be better to run AmigaOS3.x from EUAE in AmigaOS4.x. yeh sure, its EUAE is old and can support AmigaOS4.x better.

Without Amiga hardware is bigger overhead compared to other emulation solutions, that does not need emulate anything but the CPU. there is however possible untapped possibility wrap API’s to native API’s to get more speed.

Use Native datatypes, Native PowerPacker for example.
I think of any reason why we are not using the native icon library.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Sep-2024 at 06:29 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Sep-2024 at 06:23 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Sep-2024 at 06:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Sep-2024 at 06:20 PM.

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@AmigaMac

While i myselves am not interested in MOS
at all i can see why you would be interested.
I guess os4/mos dualboot you can get under one hood
But os3.x will be hard to also add in.

So it would probably be a second system (i will
myselves put together a pi5 system with amikit
next week for os3.x - though i also got a
Pistorm and vampire system for os3.x,
hardware was like 120 EUR only. Not too bad
for “second/third/fourth system�. Of course
that one is still an emulation system (will set
it up with BootMode to directly boot into
AmigaOS).

@amigang

I had to vote for 'Other' because I think the missed opportunities RIGHT NOW! are more related to Business than hardware, software, products (which can be hardware and/or software), or any of the other options in your poll.

What we've witnessed over the past 5 years is that there is no shortage of talent and capabilities to develop and bring to market new things for the existing Amiga market: FPGA-based accelerators and standalone systems which outperform any original Amiga and m68k accelerator, ARM-based solutions such as PiStorm + emu68, A500 Mini, A600GS, updates to actually usable software for MorphOS, ApolloOS, AROS68k, AxRuntime, System 46, etc.

What this beloved system needs RIGHT NOW! is the thing it didn't get in 2009 when A-EON volunteered itself as tribute in our decades long version of the Hunger Games. We thought we were finally getting some business leadership to step things up and bring the much needed signal to our land of noise.

It's late 2024, A-EON failed in its duty of care as there is still more noise than signal. More hardware, software, products, just adds more noise and therefore a divided community, and disjointed goals for awareness.
I mean, does anyone really want outsiders to be aware of the current Amiga hellscape?

Last edited by agami on 08-Sep-2024 at 01:16 AM.

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@amigang

Quote:

So it been fun reading some of the missed opportunities of the Amiga market in different areas, a lot of it I does feel is with the befit of hindsight, so I just thought what about a thread about the missed opportunities of the Amiga market right now are!

There is no real market since the end of Commodore simply because most of our self-called elite divided the Amiga, it's as simple as that... Even the PPC is divided since the beginning (PowerUP and WarpUP)...

They destroyed their own products !!!!

The only solution is to change this very Yin mentality by a Yang one (like mine)...

There was many calls of unity here on this forum (not by me), they never answered...

Are you sure that the extremly Yin Hyperion, Apollo Team, Jens Schonfeld, AEon, AmigaKit... will change any days ??

I think no, the Amiga PPC and 68k is dead since many years because of these guys... Final point !

Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 07-Sep-2024 at 07:04 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 07-Sep-2024 at 07:04 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 07-Sep-2024 at 07:03 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 07-Sep-2024 at 07:02 AM.

@amigang

Missede opportinuty:

AmigaOS (at least an AmigaOS with Emulator) should been available here:
https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/operating-systems/#raspberry-pi-os-32-bit

amigang Quote:

So I think not having AmgaOS legal messed cleaned up and allowing the community / companies to use AmigaOS in its projects. Prefect example is the Vampire Team and Amigakit, having to side step the Os and use AROS. Now this might not be any one companies fault, but I do think its a shame and a missed opportunity to not unite developers more and make it just easier to support the official OS. But this is a small missed opportunity thank to AROS.

THEA500 Mini lacking a full AmigaOS fits in the same category as the A600GS and AC/Vamp hardware using alternatives to AmigaOS. They are all failed proliferation of a standard 68k AmigaOS. The blame is primarily the fault of one business which is Hyperion and one person which is Ben Hermans although Trevor Dickinson created the monster with financial support. Michele Battilana negotiated to free the AmigaOS update from the IP squatters but they backed out of an agreement twice, perhaps because Hyperion would have been bankrupt sooner without the high profit margin 68k AmigaOS update by unpaid developers.

amigang Quote:

Another one is Amiga Forever, I do think Cloanto have created a nice emulation package, but I think they not done much to expand the market, like where an official version for Android. I know there Ant Stream and having the Roms easy to purchase is nice, but I do think having a more complete offering would be nice, not just Android phone either, Chromebook now make up 4% of the desktop market.

Uncertainty is an investment killer. Cloanto/Amiga Corporation are limited in what they can do due to the IP squatters and lawsuits. What Cloanto accomplished previously with Amiga Forever was based on limited Amiga IP ownership before acquiring the Amiga Inc. IP. Amiga Corporation owns most of the Amiga IP now and Hyperion and Ben will most likely be out of the picture soon. Hold your judgement until then.

Amiga Forever supports Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, iOS, Chrome and Wii.

https://www.amigaforever.com/diversity/
https://www.amigaforever.com/chrome/

I don't know what you expect from a "more complete offering" because this looks like good coverage to me.

amigang Quote:

Also the computer world has changed and programs like this now need to be on Store front but it not on Steam, Epic store, Microsoft store etc. It be cool if it was as then at least when people type in them store Classic gaming, Retro etc them people might stumble across the Amiga platform. ( Ant Stream I know kinda fills that gap a little, but some might just want emulator and may want serious software.

Different stores have different policies and different rates. Getting Amiga emulation into every store isn't going to change the fact that emulation is EOL. Emulation is mostly for playing old games on an old dead platform. Developers ignore dead platforms and this does little to proliferate the Amiga platform or grow the Amiga user base. Emulation of the Amiga is only respecting the history of what the Amiga was instead of what it is which is dead without hardware.

amigang Quote:

Online Amiga store selling Amiga software all in one place. I get why this would be really difficult and I think Amigakit are trying to make Amistore that solution. But so many games and software title are sold all over the place in the Amiga land. It be cool if they could all be found on one platform. All the other platform kinda have this now, even linux. Even if the dev doesn't want to be sold on that platform maybe even just a link from it would be handy so people could find stuff.

The https://amigastore.com/ URL goes to the "Amiga Store from Amiga Kit". The A600GS also uses "Amiga" Kit on their computer hardware displays. Amiga Kit is using the "Amiga" name for both stores and computer hardware. Is this under license from the business that holds the "Amiga" trademark or is it more IP squatting?

amigang Quote:

Amiga.com, I think its odd that nothing really be done with it, they don’t even promote Amiga forever, a500 mini or really anything on there, apart from follow the X account, which again only really promote Retro Game / Antstream stuff and haven't promoted the big Amiga shows in the Uk, like Kickstart UK, that they even sponsored. Just a little odd if you ask me. Again this only a very small missed opportunities as I guess most Amiga fan would know about these events but its a shame the official owners don’t do a little more.

I agree with you here. The website doesn't even have basic information about Amiga Corporation and it has been this way for far too long.

amigang Quote:

That leads on to my last point, promoting what the Amiga was and is now, to the outside world. I think it would be good for the community and companies left in the Amiga scene to try and maybe make people aware where still going, there are many ways, there loads of tech podcast, youtubers and the like that might be convince to cover the Amiga market at least once on there channel. There are retro show and other events where I feel Amiga should have a present as a few examples.

Promoting what the Amiga was is a loosing battle. History is forgotten in time. THEA500 Mini was a well done nostalgic toy that was a reminder but changed nothing. Promoting what the Amiga is, which is dead, is also a waste of time.

It is likely possible to have successful and relevant Amiga products.

o cheap retro 68k Amiga toys
o enhanced retro 68k Amiga computers/microconsoles
o small footprint standard 68k systems for retro and embedded use

One hardware 68k SoC ASIC could be used for all. It is also important to realize where the Amiga is not competitive.

o expensive PPC/POWER AmigaNOne/AmigaNOwhere computers
o desktop requiring SMP and 64-bit
o as divided market non-standard systems
o emulation/virtual Amiga systems

The difference between a competitive product and not is like the difference between 50,000,000 RPis sold in half the time as 5,000 AmigaNOne computers sold. There will be no proper investment with IP squatters and criminals in the picture though.

@matthey

I agree with most of what you said in your post, but this one really hits home.

matthey Quote:

The difference between a competitive product and not is like the difference between 50,000,000 RPis sold in half the time as 5,000 AmigaNOne computers sold.

redfox

Although I understand the concept of building a revenue stream, I just don't get how a product like A600GS fits into the "Amiga" market.

A600GS uses a completely different operating system, but I suppose it can run 68K programs.

I do understand emulating AmigaOS3 which I currently do on my own system.

Best wishes to all, no matter what your prefernces may be ...


redfox

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Promoting what the Amiga was is a loosing battle. History is forgotten in time. THEA500 Mini was a well done nostalgic toy that was a reminder but changed nothing. Promoting what the Amiga is, which is dead, is also a waste of time.

That's a crude but realistic synthesis.
Quote:

It is likely possible to have successful and relevant Amiga products. o cheap retro 68k Amiga toys o enhanced retro 68k Amiga computers/microconsoles o small footprint standard 68k systems for retro and embedded use

The embedded market is the most interesting. Even taking the OS alone.

There are many people that there are still working on embedded systems with very little flash available, and that reinvent the wheel creating small bare metal OSes because they need more than a simple system like Arduino is giving.

The Amiga OS (Exec, primarily) would be a perfect fit for that, by removing/replacing the parts which are too much tailored to the Amiga hardware. AROS already have almost everything in house for this purpose, but it's lacking developers porting it to different hardware platforms.


@redfox

Quote:

redfox wrote: Although I understand the concept of building a revenue stream, I just don't get how a product like A600GS fits into the "Amiga" market. A600GS uses a completely different operating system, but I suppose it can run 68K programs. I do understand emulating AmigaOS3 which I currently do on my own system. Best wishes to all, no matter what your prefernces may be ... redfox

A600GS is using AROS/68k and it's running 68k Amiga applications and games: that's why it fits the Amiga (without quotes) market.

@redfox

Quote:

A600GS uses a completely different operating system, but I suppose it can run 68K programs.

The A600GS runs System V46 which is a direct source code port of System V54 found in the Enhancer Software on PPC machines. Instead of OS4 providing the missing files to make the system boot, we have used AROS. So it’s not a completely different OS. It shares the same code base as the Enhancer Software.

In addition to this we have developed ARM native libraries which intercept 68k functions and run them in much faster ARM native code. This ongoing development work will progress one function at a a time to leverage the speed of the ARM CPU.

We are continuing to develop software for the X5000, A1222+ and A600GS using the same code base and compiling accordingly. All these products are closely tied to each other.

Finally if you have an AmiSphere login - you can use this same user account on any of the machines including the A600GS. Updater tool has been ported to the A600GS and runs within Amibench to keep the Amibench files up to date.

Last edited by amigakit on 08-Sep-2024 at 08:54 AM.

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@agami

Quote:

I had to vote for 'Other' because I think the missed opportunities RIGHT NOW! are more related to Business than hardware, software, products (which can be hardware and/or software), or any of the other options in your poll.

Yeah I agree! We have all the products and expertise but the struggle is that of working together! It feels like GVP/Checkmate versus Commodore a lot of the time!

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@amigakit

But wont Cloanto get mad, when you produce products that compete with emulation solutions.

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@matthey

Quote:

Amiga Forever supports Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, iOS, Chrome and Wii.

Wii? I had to double-check you on that one, but your right
https://www.amigaforever.com/wii/
I wonder what project that would have been, I doubt Nintendo would have allowed an Amiga emulator on their platform.

Plus the Android and Chrome support is basically just the Roms, it not really an emulator which is what I'm on about.

Quote:

Getting Amiga emulation into every store isn't going to change the fact that emulation is EOL. Emulation is mostly for playing old games on an old dead platform. Developers ignore dead platforms and this does little to proliferate the Amiga platform or grow the Amiga user base. Emulation of the Amiga is only respecting the history of what the Amiga was instead of what it is which is dead without hardware.

Emulation is not always EOL, there always a new platform to support and new users who might try out old Amiga games. Sega kinda proved this with Sonic1 game that been re-released, remastered so many times on so many different platforms or there Mega Drive Collection, that came out on Ps2, wii, xbox, Ps3, Ps4, Ps5, Android, etc, and newer tech allows these companies to ever expand the option and the way you can play the classics. HD/4k up-scale is thing now for most of these old games, but who knows whats next, ai enhancements, VR / Augmented reality version etc

Its also useful money maker to hopefully bring new resource and to put money in supporting newer project. It also offers awareness factor, many people dont even know about Amiga anymore! I work with some younger people who know what a Sega Mega Drive was and what Commodore even was, but they didn't know anything about Amiga! it makes me sad, but not that surprising, because until really the A500 mini, nothing really gone main stream.

Quote:

Promoting what the Amiga was is a loosing battle. History is forgotten in time. THEA500 Mini was a well done nostalgic toy that was a reminder but changed nothing. Promoting what the Amiga is, which is dead, is also a waste of time.

But the Amiga not dead and is only growing (only very small) thanks in part we have to say thanks to A500 Mini, appearing in places where people might of completely forgotten the Amiga platform, they picked one up and looked online about Amiga and found a crazy amiga community still going strong, I know this because i met a person who told me this story at North West Amiga meeting we had and he was blown away by the fact that the Amiga was still going and there was community still active and so many Amiga shows / group meeting being held. So you just never know what impact, no matter how small these above suggestion will make.

Also when i tell people you know Amiga help NASA, and Amiga was used at the Brit Awards 2024, it kinda blows there little minds! Wish we could see more of this being promted https://www.youtube.com/shorts/e8vaccttxsg

Last edited by amigang on 08-Sep-2024 at 12:30 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 08-Sep-2024 at 12:21 PM.

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Quote:

providing the missing files to make the system boot

Also known as “the operating system�.

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