@George well spoted indeed.

But I am afrraid it makes little difference, it is not the advertising that counts but who it is sold to -- in this case within the Amiga Community. The fact that the quote is singular, though there may well be a few others, has to be balanced against what was preseneted as an "early bird" for a specific market, early on and for what purpose.

What seemed to planted in some parts of the internet was the assertion that it was not sold to the Amiga Community per se, was somehow disconnected from any OS in the process of being written, tha, instead, it was sold as a general consumer item.

If the assertions had been left unchallenged, if they had not been debated or alternatives views been put it could have formed a prima facia case to be used in another court battle but now dragging in Eyetech -- this would do no-one any good. Just to check my own understanding I run the problem before some legally minded friends and their reading of what was going on was the same -- a possible attempt to plant evidence for a future legal case.

From the balance of comments such a prima facia case no longer exists and the attempt to assert the fiction has been countered -- perhaps there was no attempt, no planting of evidence, just an odd coincidence -- it happens, but once having gained the suspicion I felt oblidged to do something about it -- hence my lengthy, often ill-written and sometimes convoluted postings on Aw.net and eslewhere.

Now in your case and others on AW.net who have bought the A1 boards, the thing is confusing. I am actually argueing that the legal liability Eyetech has for the flaws is almost non-existent -- to me this is just a fact., it has nothing to do with what I thiunk Eyetetch should do.

If pressed Eyetech can easily show that no-one who had bought the board could have been in any reasopnable doubt as to its overall status (even though they might be ignorant of particular flaws) that they represented part of a special interest community wishing to take advantage of an "early" offerdesigned precisely to test and play with the evolving software//hw combination. That possible design flaws and other incompatabilities were in the nature of the purchase and any reasoanable Amigan would have known that or concluded that it was a risk.

I trust the above more or less tallies with the reality of how the boards were sold, regardless of any advertising, statements or quotes to the contrary. What a court tests for is the reality of the act being examined, not how it was presented, thought about or even remembered. Also in at least one example where a purchaser clearly did not know what they were getting into -- Eyetech offered an immediate refund.

George, the quote is fine, but who are the consumers in the context? General consumers or Amiga Community consumers buying under an "early" preview basis -- we know that it was the Amiga Community and that fact belies any statement. We know the answer, there has been no mystery, no general consumers lining up to buy the boards at retial shops - there is no need to search for clues in past statements.

The assertions which I have been trying to combat implied that the boards had been markketed and sold to the general public like toasters might be. This never happened.

It was initially an assertion made simultaneously by three people who were hostile to AOS4 and introduced into a debate that had nothing to do with how anything was sold.

After that the same assertion appeared elsewhere, and very quickly even here where people started talking in terms similiar (probably more a coincidence in this latter case), I could not let the matter rest. For essentioally it is an assertion which is completely at odds to the reality of what was sold to whom, potenmtially an ugly, needless and in the end fruitless court case. As I became suspicious I set about trying to counter it -- whatever the faults in my arguments.

Eyetech, in my view, is however, morally obliged to get fixes for the XE and SE boards. It needs to be dealing with the manufacturers and designers as well as its retailers. It may well be doing so. Which brings in another aspect -- it is fine to complain, but given the circumstances the nature of what is going on -- what is a reasonable time limit? I personally think the release of OS4 is the last possible time to get these fixes on their way to us.

I hope this makes things clearer to everyone.

Last edited by GregS on 02-Feb-2005 at 12:01 AM.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@ Coder

Quote:

I dunno about other people but I do see the word consumer there. But I am sure someone will tell me I am reading it out of it's context. Right?

The word "consumer" just means "an individual who purchases goods for personal use". Even techies or 3rd party beta-testers/developers are consumers.

However IMO the following parts of this Eyetech announcement are more important:

Quote:

So why order an AmigaOne now? Well over the last six months we have had overwhelming demand from both dealers and individuals to ship the AmigaOne hardware - both boards and pre-built systems - now, together with LinuxPPC and UAE, in advance of OS4 being available. In addition this 'Earlybird' offer this also helps us spread the testing, assembly and despatch operations of the AmigaOne boards

Quote:

This of course will not suit everybody, and if you want a switch-on-and-go AmigaOne system then this Earlybird offer is not for you.

IMO even today despite the positive and supportive Ars Technica review, AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne (just like x86 Linux, Pegasos2, YellowTAB's Zeta OS, etc) are not ready for the *average* computer user. But without supportive and active early adopters taken a risk, these computing solutions will *never* be ready for the general public and regarding general computing this would leave us with just Windows and MacOS.

The fact is that we are dealing with tiny companies who are relatively low on resources in terms of money and manpower compared to the dominant players dealing within the mainstream market. The last thing we want to see is the remaining Amiga companies turn towards the more profitable Windows or Apple markets or don't we?

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Feb-2005 at 12:03 AM.

@GregS

If presented with evidence that destroys your case, simply dismiss it and press on. Greg, I like your style

_________________
Who do you serve, and who do you trust? - Galen

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

If presented with evidence that destroys your case, simply dismiss it and press on. Greg, I like your style

Thanks mate

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@MikeB

Quote:

The last thing we want to see is the remaining Amiga companies turn towards the more profitable Windows or Apple markets or don't we?

I agree 100%. It is a small market and you really don't want to chase away important people. One of my probs that I though NEVER would get fixed was the sound but it did. Thanks to the second update of OS4. And now I only have the USB prob left that I like to see fixed. And OS4 is still beta so who knows? I certainly did not expect software to fix my sound prob. If a future OS4 update makes that work too I am going to hand out a lot of hugs.

Coder

_________________
Can't get enough of me?
The Bucket Diary Blog
The Bucket Diary Twitter Account

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

If presented with evidence that destroys your case, simply dismiss it and press on. Greg, I like your style

Greg certainly takes the time for a reply. The replies are longer then my wife's shopping list .

Coder

_________________
Can't get enough of me?
The Bucket Diary Blog
The Bucket Diary Twitter Account

I'll just add a bit more b*tching and whining here, and be done with it.

While I'm not too happy about the situation of our "broken" boards (or "flawed" or "not fully operational" or whatever term is deemed appropriate), and not too impressed with Eyetech's silence on the matter, I'm also a bit torn. It's not as simple as pointing fingers and screaming shenanigans, but that doesn't mean I'm about to cheer and applaud them at this point either.

Yes, it's a damn small market, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that more money's flowing out of pockets than into them. And we should be grateful that we're able to buy and use Amigas at all today. I know I am. And I think most other people who bought an A1 are as well, or I doubt any of us would've jumped at the opportunity to get one.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that the hw-issues is something the manufacturers would be able to "get away with," so to speak, so this is where I disagree with GregS. However, discussing this further would just be arguing over semantics, and that would be rather pointless. Not only because it wouldn't really get us anywhere, but also because we have yet to see the final outcome, and I'd guess that solutions are being worked on, not just the actual fixes but also a policy regarding the manufacturers' stance on the situation. I certainly hope so at least.
I might add also that I strongly doubt that any hardware misfortunes are deliberate, evil deeds. I just wish that we got updates on a more frequent basis, which I think we have to some degree deserved for taking the plunge in the first place. Then again, with the betrayal of trust with regards to the A1-owners forum fresh in mind, I can see how that isn't viable.

There's one thing I do agree with Greg on:
Quote:

Eyetech, in my view, is however, morally obliged to get fixes for the XE and SE boards. It needs to be dealing with the manufacturers and designers as well as its retailers.

And I also think that being patient until the full release of OS4 is out seems like a reasonable idea.


I think that Coder makes a great point as well:
Quote:

It is a small market and you really don't want to chase away important people.

So, to conclude, I'm not impressed by the current situation, but as I stated before, I'm bloody grateful that there still is an Amiga around today, OS and hardware, a decade after its "death."

It's just something I'll have to work a bit harder to keep in mind when frustration sets in. As I said, I'm a bit torn about my feelings on the matter. It's certainly not a simple situation, where things are either black or white. But then, in the Amiga community, what is?

_________________
A1G4XE, OS4-pre

Altro Ac etico Carlo tenendo residuo concreta coltiva Paese giunge www.googies45.com musica canzoni italiana vissuta volto primato sentiamo distanze.

Gratitudine i eccessi cose aggiunge ultimo profondit italiana midi musica associazioni Convegno grande capace scegliere producono fattori esige tema porsi dalle. Riunisce frustrazione positiva pubblici trovare centenario italiana in musica Bianchi moltiplicazione aiutando destrutturazione ecclesiali spingendola dialogo vuole poi relativi passivamente. Questi chiarito organizza resta ricerca ponte originario condivisi italiana anni musica neutralit oppone nostro rete intitolare Forse sano lo pi. Mercantile umana relativi veramente confusioni obiettivo musica cd italiana che esperienza diventare spaesati solitudine giovani dettaglio allo coniugi. Paese alle offrire verticale sperimentati neutro fede css per style festeggiare annunciare straordinario vista solvente positivamente che assumere.