Are there plans to include things like refactoring and other helpful stuff like in Eclipse?

@ChrisH

Quote:

I'm sure that there is no chance of it, but it would be nice if some of the AVD suite worked on classic Amigas (and under emulation), because of the difficulty of obtaining OS4 hardware. As it is, I think that AmiDevCpp is the only thing which can compile OS4 PPC binaries on another platform (in this case Windows).

Currently, AVD (and the proposed FREEAVD) require two main things:
1.) The AmigaOS4(tm) SDK
2.) AmigaOS4(tm) operating system libraries (esp. the later Intuition/Reaction stuff)

If I were to make a port to classic Amiga platforms, it would be a native M68K version
compatible with Amithlon, UAE, AmigaForever, classic Amigas, the whole range (or it
would not be worth doing).

However stepping backward, even to version 3.9 much less 3.1 would require me
to either drop important features from AVD or spend the time writing replacement
versions. In the case of the GUI development (a very large piece of AVD itself), you
would need to back-port all the current OS4 BOOPSI classes and add several key
features to Intuition itself. This is not only a great deal of duplicated work it is also
simply not possible without bringing most of OS4 back over to M68K based machines.
That is not my call, as I don't hold the AmigaOS sources nor a license to port them.

Some parts of AVD could be ported back to an OS 3.1 or better level without
too much pain, like the SDK Browser for example, but you still need to have
the OS4 SDK.

Others though, like the GUI Builder, actually allow you to design the graphical
interfaces for your applications using a live, realtime, interface building engine.
That engine dynamically creates and manipulates your GUI designs using the real
OS4 BOOPSI classes that will in turn be used when AVD writes the resulting C source
code for you.

In terms of compiling programs for AmigaOS4(tm) PPC binaries, AVD primarily uses
GCC as the underline compiler, and will directly support using cross-compilers.
I often use a GCC cross-compiler on Linux to build for OS4, and their are prebuilt
cross-compilers available with the OS4 SDK for building using MacOSX(PPC), Linux(i686),
Windows(i686)[using cygwin tools], and of course AmigaOS4(PPC). There is also the
"adtools" project on sourceforge.net which was setup to help promote better tools
for all Amiga and Amiga-like systems.

(See below for more on this)

@Srbin

Quote:

Will there be MOS or even better AROS version? I read on your site that you are aiming it only to OS4, but i am way too pessimistic for A1 and i am not going to buy one.

This is more or less the same answer as above, and for similar reasons.
I have nothing against a possible port to other Amiga-like systems, but
AVD is intended to really bring out all the features of OS4 for easy use,
so trying to make a common version will only cause the OS4 version to
suffer in both features and development delays.

Any full port could only be considered after AVD for OS4 is actually finished.

However, even though porting all of AVD over to other Amiga-like alternatives
would require a lot of work and will have to wait to even be considered, there
is one area of possible cross-over. That is the upcoming XML-to-GUI runtime
system. This involves saving your "simple" applications (like GUI frontends
to command line programs) to an open XML format. These XML files are then read
in by a freely distributed runtime program that generates the native GUI interface
on the fly, in real time, and then proceeds to run the application.

The XML format is designed based on OS4 Intuition/Reaction classes and tag
values, but is still generic enough for general use. Therefore, you could port
the runtime part over to nearly any other GUI environment, operating system
or platform. AmigaOS 3.x(M68K), MOS, AROS, MacOSX, Linux, and even Windows.

AVD's GUI Builder will actually generate these XML files for you, but it would
still be possible to write them by hand on other platforms.

Best Regards,

Jamie

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

Quote:

I am already signed up to your scheme, but I will make another donation.

As Toaks has pointed out, this is not the same plan as the others.

All other early-purchase offers (FDSP plans) to date were all to specifically
purchase a copy of the commercial version of the AVD Suite v1.0, and help
fund it's development in the process.

This proposed project is to produce a FREEWARE version of the AVD systems
and associated tools for open distribution to the entire community. The main
difference from the commercial version being that FREEAVD will be limited to
the production of FREEWARE applications only.

This effort is to try and give everyone who wants to try Amiga programming or port
software to the OS4 a *much* easier place to start. If it's easy and fun, developers
with stay with it, and newbies will not be so easily frustrated and give up.

Best Regards,

Jamie

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@AmigaMac

Quote:

How is the business doing? I surely hope for all the best for you and your venture.

Thanks!

The business itself is going well. As much as can be expected for a company
that is not intended to make money that is. I do this because I love it, and I only
hope to gather enough support to continue writing for the Amiga full time. Once
we can all bring the platform up to being a more viable market, then I may be able
to pay myself a salary again - so I can get that next killer Amiga box.

Best Regards,

Jamie

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@cgutjahr

Quote:

First of all, I have a lot of respect for your dedication, and judging by various comments I heard so far, the quality of your work is pretty good aswell. But I don't think this going to work, and I even have some doubts about your approach. You're basically asking the community to pay you a monthly salary of $3000 for working on AVD. You don't specify any estimated release dates (a rather important detail, even if if it's very hard to predict), but lets say it will take you 12 months to finish AVD 1.0. In that case, the sponsors would have to pay $36000 upfront - that's quite a lot of money for such a tiny comunity. Mozilla and KHTML, both projects way more important for the average user, managed to collect 'only' $12000 and $4000. You're the only person working on a visual development studio - there are way too much things that could go wrong, delay the release etc. The whole thing is way to risky and way to expensive for my taste. Additionally, if your approach works (i.e. you get enough funding) one could describe your relationship to your sponsors as "JamieKrueger was hired by the community do develop AVD". In a traditional employee/employer relationship, the employer owns the employee's creation afterwards. But in this case, you get paid upfront to create AVD and you're going to be the owner of the IP created during the time you've been paid. This strikes me as somewhat odd. Sorry for being negative, I'd rather support the noble cause of creating an IDE that meets today's requirements and is taylor-made for AmigaOS, but there are way too many questions and stumbling blocks involved for my taste.

I respect your opinion here as well as your concerns.
However, your comments do bring a few questions to mind.

First of all, did you miss the part of the project proposal where
*FREE*AVD will be openly distributed to the communtity as a whole,
as FREEWARE?

In part you could say that yes, I am asking for the community to sponsor
the development of FREEAVD, but not of AVD.

In return everyone gets to have free visual development tools from which
they can create FREEWARE apps, and those who actually hang in there
and sponsor up to US $200 will get a full version of the AVD Suite, from which
they can make free software, commericial software, whatever they want.

Isn't that worth the paying to have developed?

Finally, "an IDE that meets today's requirements and is taylor-made for AmigaOS",
is in my mind a fairly good description of where AVD and FREEAVD will start out,
so I am a bit confused why you think FREEAVD would not fit this requirement.

Best Regards,

Jamie Krueger

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@Reth
Quote:

Are there plans to include things like refactoring and other helpful stuff like in Eclipse?

The design philosophy behind (FREE)AVD tends towards refactoring each time the code
is regenerated.

The basic idea is that (FREE)AVD will store enough information about each project,
in open XML formats, to be able to reconstruct the final sources on demand any
time it is needed.

Therefore, as design improvements are made to AVD's source generating routines
for example, your program will pick up on those improvements simply by being
regenerated. Additionally, as you add/remove/disable/enable different functions
within your application, (FREE)AVD will get a new chance to refactor and optimize
each new build automatically.

I hope that answered your question.

Best Regards,

Jamie

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@JamieKrueger

Will there be a possibility to upgrade to the full AVD cheaper?

If a freeware author can prove he's made something for the community.
Maybe could get the full AVD licence for half the price?

EDIT: Will there be a MUI GUI builder after you've finished the AVD suit?
That would indeed help development for other Amigaish platforms and for
those that prefer MUI over ReAction.

Last edited by Samwel on 27-Aug-2006 at 02:59 AM.
Last edited by Samwel on 27-Aug-2006 at 01:00 AM.

_________________
/Harry

[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

I was seriously considering purchasing AVD, just for the GUI into gdb (the debugger).
Alas my AmigaOne has been dead since January and I'm still waiting to get it repaired.

_________________

@Samwel
Quote:

Will there be a possibility to upgrade to the full AVD cheaper?

Mmm, upgrade from a free version that everyone has a copy of?
I don't think upgrade is the right word in that case, maybe sale price
would be closer.

If it was possible I would make the entire thing free, but if that was
the case it would be another 10 years before I got time enough to
finish it.

@ALL
What I will do is credit every person for every dollar they put in for
either sponsorship or straight donation, toward a full license of the
AVD software if they choose to buy a copy anytime in the future.
(and yes, I do keep complete records of everything... the IRS prefers it that way)

Quote:

If a freeware author can prove he's made something for the community. Maybe could get the full AVD licence for half the price?

That sounds like the start of an excellent idea for a programming contest
to me. I would be happy to donate a few full licensed copies of the AVD Suite
for the winners of such a contest. (Publicly judged of course, I don't want to
judge it just donate the prizes.) - Of course, I need to actually *finish* the
software first.

Quote:

EDIT: Will there be a MUI GUI builder after you've finished the AVD suit? That would indeed help development for other Amigaish platforms and for those that prefer MUI over ReAction.

If MUI ever becomes an "official" part of OS4, then the answer is clearly yes.
Otherwise I can't say for sure yet. I do plan to support its use, but a full
MUI GUI Builder would need more consideration.

Best Regards,

Jamie Krueger

Last edited by JamieKrueger on 27-Aug-2006 at 06:02 AM.

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

Quote:

I was seriously considering purchasing AVD, just for the GUI into gdb (the debugger). Alas my AmigaOne has been dead since January and I'm still waiting to get it repaired.

I am happy that you are giving serious thought about anything I am writing,
but I'm sorry to hear that your AmigaONE is down. I hope you can get in back to
working soon.

Best Regards,

Jamie Krueger

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@JamieKrueger who said Quote:

As far as the "Amiga User Interface Style Guide" goes, I would love to get another copy, especially now. I have located nearly two complete sets of the RKRMs (3rd Edition), but no Style Guide among them.

In the forum discussion about James Jacobs's "pirate" site, I visited the site to see what the fuss was about, and happened to notice that he has something labeled "Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manual: User Interface Style Guide" for download.

Sadly I can't post a link (should you be interested), as I would get clobbered by AW.net's Terms & Conditions.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@Toaks

Quote:

but this is another scheme it seems

Thanks, I've just made a donation towards FreeAVD.

TrevorDick

_________________
No, I don't need no reason, I'm just breezin'

@JamieKrueger:

Quote:

First of all, did you miss the part of the project proposal where *FREE*AVD will be openly distributed to the communtity as a whole, as FREEWARE?

No, I didn't miss that part. I just think it's not as good as you make it sound, sorry ;)

If your plan works out, you will have earned a lot more money than you could have ever made by choosing the traditional path for selling commercial software (build it, test it, sell it -> then collect money). Perhaps ten times as much, perhaps three times as much - a lot more in any case.

Under these circumstances, releasing a freeware version doesn't strike me as all that generous. I bet most Amige software developers would happily release freeware versions of their software if they could make a living from their product this way.

Quote:

In part you could say that yes, I am asking for the community to sponsor the development of FREEAVD, but not of AVD.

FREEAVD and AVD are virtually the same product, so you're of course asking the community to sponsor the development of AVD.

Quote:

In return everyone gets to have free visual development tools from which they can create FREEWARE apps, and those who actually hang in there and sponsor up to US $200 will get a full version of the AVD Suite, from which they can make free software, commericial software, whatever they want. Isn't that worth the paying to have developed?

If the community hires you for 12 months (or more), the community should own what you have created during that time - that's the way I see it, sorry.

Think about this: Assuming you get enough funding and release (FREE)AVD 1.0 in twelve months, you'll face the very same problem you're facing right now: No money and no product to sell (as the product has already been sold using a prepay scheme). You'll either have to come up with the next sponsoring scheme, or get a real job and more or less abandon further development of (FREE)AVD. At that point, the community would have already invested $36000 into the project - not a good deal, IMHO.

Don't get me wrong - I know you have to pay your bills, and asking for $3000 per month isn't exactly greedy. So what you're asking for is fine with me (I just doubt the community can come up with that much money), but what you're offering in return doesn't justify that sum, IMHO.

@all

I have added some clarifications for the proposed FREEAVD project,
which I hope will help everyone understand what the initial starting
requirements are and what is requested to aid in continued development.
I have also added a second progress bar to more accurately represent
both monthly sponsorships and specific donations. See the STATUS and
SPONSORSHIP pages for more information.

Best Regards,

Jamie Krueger

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@cgutjahr
Quote:

No, I didn't miss that part. I just think it's not as good as you make it sound, sorry ;)

To be fair you can not judge the quality of any software project until it is actually
finished and in use. So how can you determine its perspective value before you
even see it or try it out. I understand this is just your opinion, and you're entitled to it,
I just think it is not based on all the facts. But to be honest you only have my word
about anything I intend or promise to do, and maybe the evidence of my early
contributions to go by. (SDK Browser, AVD Template Project, etc.).

If you knew me, you'd know how much I despise over priced software and empty
promises. You would also know the immense pride I have in my own work, it is
who I am and it's a matter of honor with me not to write or release junk code,
much less promise what I can not deliver.

Quote:

If your plan works out, you will have earned a lot more money than you could have ever made by choosing the traditional path for selling commercial software (build it, test it, sell it -> then collect money). Perhaps ten times as much, perhaps three times as much - a lot more in any case. Under these circumstances, releasing a freeware version doesn't strike me as all that generous. I bet most Amiga software developers would happily release freeware versions of their software if they could make a living from their product this way.

I have to disagree with this point. How can you say that I would stand to make much
larger amounts of money by asking the community to sponsor *part* of the development
of a free version, as opposed to simply fronting all the development cost myself, upfront,
and selling it outright.

First of all, if I stuck to the "traditional" software company model of write it -> sell it,
there would be no freeware version, as there would be even more development costs
to recoup, thus making a freeware version impossible.

Second, the only *real* requirement I have set for releasing a freeware version is that
an initial sponsorship level (or more specifically a bounty amount) is put up to help cover
part of the development cost. There are no set term for any of the sponsorship levels,
all of them can be cancelled by the sponsor at any time, so in a "worse case" I will be
releasing a freeware version of the entire AVD suite for open use by everyone for a
one time cost of US $3000.00. This is more akin to a group purchase of an "unlimited
number of license seats", than it is anything close to paying a salaried employee to
write an application that the "community" would then own.

I have updated my website to better clarify what I am really asking for with this project,
and what is to be gotten in return.

Third, to better reward those individuals among the community who actually step up
to bear the purchase cost for the entire community, I am crediting them for every
dollar they put in toward a purchase of the full commercial version of AVD itself.
Thus, they get a chance to purchase AVD directly, and help make a freeware version
possible for the rest of us at the same time. So there again you would need to subtract
those licenses from the idea of that it being any "extra" earnings on my side as opposed
to the "traditional" sales model.

I would estimate that only a few extremely generous individuals will make contributions
beyond the full purchase price of the AVD software that they would have had to pay
anyway to buy a copy in the first place.

Quote:

FREEAVD and AVD are virtually the same product, so you're of course asking the community to sponsor the development of AVD.

I could argue this further, but instead I will concede this point as it has no real
bearing on the project. Except to point out that even if they were exactly the
same project, which they are not, I am not asking the community to sponsor
the full development of anything, only to help cover *part* of the costs.

Quote:

If the community hires you for 12 months (or more), the community should own what you have created during that time - that's the way I see it, sorry.

I would normally agree with this way of thinking for a normal contract job to write
a specific piece of software from scratch, where ALL of the development costs
are paid for from the beginning.

I don't know about you, but as a former Sr. Software Engineer with more than 15 years
of experience, my normal rates for such work are US $75.00 an hour. That's $3000.00
a *week*, $12,000.00 a month figuring only normal 40 hour work weeks, not the 12 to 14
hours a day, seven days a week I put in on Amiga programming.

Then too, what about the 18 plus months and tens of thousands of dollars of my own
money that I have already invested into this project? As you say, I am "only" offering
to make a freeware version of AVD and openly release it to the community. AVD's
development started better than 18 months ago, not whenever the FREEAVD bounty
is reached. If the Amiga community were to truly pay for the right of ownership of the
AVD sources, et al., even just at the requested sponsorship level of $3000 a month,
they would need to come up with a further $54,000.00 (not that I would even sell it at
that rate since it also means I give up ALL possible future profits or the right to further
develop the software as I see fit).

I'm afraid this argument of "community ownership" under the proposed plan,
just does not hold water.

Quote:

Think about this: Assuming you get enough funding and release (FREE)AVD 1.0 in twelve months, you'll face the very same problem you're facing right now: No money and no product to sell (as the product has already been sold using a prepay scheme). You'll either have to come up with the next sponsoring scheme, or get a real job and more or less abandon further development of (FREE)AVD. At that point, the community would have already invested $36000 into the project - not a good deal, IMHO.

Let my answer this one in part with a question for you to think about.

*** [
Don't you think that Hyperion is already facing the same situation?
They have essentially been paid in advanced a mere pittance for each
copy of OS4 that has been sold with, as far as I know, every piece
of AmigaONE hardware that has been shipped. That amount couldn't hope
to cover the initial development cost of OS4, much less its continued
development. But despite this they, along with some 30 plus equally
dedicated and equally unpaid individuals, continue to improve the
Amiga operating system every day. Without further hardware platforms
to run on, their available audience for selling more copies of OS4 is
not just small, it's nonexistent. So how can a company hope to survive
with a market like that? What do they have at the end of the day to
show for all this hard work and dedication?

The answer in my mind is simple, they have OS4. A commodity that many
people out there still want, and a platform upon which they can build.
Their audience for selling more copies of OS4 is not the people who
already own it, by the people that will buy the new machines to come.
They also have an existing (and will be growing) install base of OS4
owners. People willing to buy the next big upgrade to OS4, or to purchase
the cool new games that they choose to put out for the platform.
] ***

***[ PLEASE NOTE: I do not represent Hyperion in any way, and my comments
are strictly those of an outside view, meant only to convey my point. ]***

In terms of myself and AVD I have a similar belief. What I will have
left to build upon is AVD itself (and I have extensive plans for it),
and my audience for new sales will be the new people joining the install
base of OS4 owners. As well as offering new upgrades, extensions, etc.
to support my existing customers. I will most likely still offer the
payment plans I currently have open for AVD, as it helps many people
more easily afford the purchase price. But other than that I expect
future sales to be more "traditional".

I would like to add a small comment about the use of the phase
"have to get a *real* job" mentioned above. I don't believe you meant
this as any kind of dig, but it's hard not to take offense to it. I would
challenge anyone who has not tried to run their own business or write
a piece of software of this scope to claim it was not a "real" job.
The statement seems to imply that such efforts are not real work or
legitimate employement, an opinion I do take offense to. I am sure
you did not mean it in this way, but perhaps "get a day job" is a better phase. ;)

Quote:

Don't get me wrong - I know you have to pay your bills, and asking for $3000 per month isn't exactly greedy. So what you're asking for is fine with me (I just doubt the community can come up with that much money), but what you're offering in return doesn't justify that sum, IMHO.

You are right about it not being a lot of money, in fact the $3000.00 only
gains me one month of operating capital for the company, zero money for myself,
it just barely covers the bills.

As far as what I will actually get vs what I return in value of software,
only time will tell. But I don't expect to make a salary here, in fact I
seriously doubt I will even be able to pay myself anything for what I have
put in. I only hope to get the software written in a timely manner.

Best Regards,

Jamie Krueger

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

Quote:

First of all, if I stuck to the "traditional" software company model of write it -> sell it, there would be no freeware version, as there would be even more development costs to recoup, thus making a freeware version impossible

Free versions are great advertising, they build customer loyalty and get users interested in the commercial product. They do not contradict the "traditional" software company model at all: Releasing a free version should be in the developer's own interest. If you say you need 300 subscribers to "commit" to what actually is a good marketing instrument, you might look at it the wrong way.

@ dietmar
Quote:

Free versions are great advertising, they build customer loyalty and get users interested in the commercial product. They do not contradict the "traditional" software company model at all: Releasing a free version should be in the developer's own interest. If you say you need 300 subscribers to "commit" to what actually is a good marketing instrument, you might look at it the wrong way.

Free versions of software are great advertising tools, no doubt about that.
However, I find that most free versions you find are either very cut down
feature wise, or really old and not kept up to date with the latest OS changes
(or maybe is this case SDK updates, etc.)

What I was hoping to do here is provide and maintain a fully-featured free
version in parallel with the current and future development of the AVD
Suite, limited only in the respect that you can only produce freeware
applications with the RAD part of the system. The idea behind asking
the community to help sponsor the development is to ensure that it can
be completed and released within months instead of years. If I had the
personal funding to continue working full time on my own, I would.

I honestly hate the idea of asking for money for something that isn't finished yet.
But I dislike even more the idea that it could take years to even get it out there
due to having to cut the development time down to nights and weekends.
Or burning out completely before I'm 40 by working two full time jobs for
years on end.

As bizarre as it might seem, I really am here trying to use what skills I can
offer to help bring the Amiga platform into the modern computing world.
However, it seems that I have to defend everything I try to do or be looked
upon as someone who is here for some kind of free ride. But I guess that
comes with trying to break new ground. I mean, if I just wanted to make
money writing my own software, I would write stuff for the Mac.

Sorry dietmar, didn't mean to 'rant' at you personally of course, I just
would rather just program most of the time. I'm sure you know what
I mean.

Best Regards,

Jamie Krueger

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

I find these new idea's of sponsoring a good way to go.

You will always have people who want everything for free or
who find the prices always to high. If we build uppon the
sponsors and reward them in some way with a full version
or a possibility to have a say in the development that would
be the best way to start new software in this tiny community.

Ones you have a launch of the full-product that should be
sufficient to pay for the development-costs, otherwise your
price is to low. You can ofcourse always bring out a light-version
or a shareware-version to try to find more users, but then again
it would add more work for these versions.

Just my thoughts.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)