@ssolie

Maybe Hyperion could make a favor and donate to Zune enhancement bounty Or are HE money sources blocked, too?

I know many would love to see MUI 4 for AROS and OS4 but MorphOS developers have invested countless hours to improve MUI. It makes no sense to give out such piece of masterwork out for free.

Nevertheless I would love to see Zune improved and have MUI 4 features. Currently it does not implement all MUI 3 features, even.

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While i want (as user) to see MUI4 on aos4 too, i still fully understand Kiero: Why they (morphos team) should open their work (and be friendly to aos4), while Hyperion of course will not help and not open anything for morphos from aos4.

Of course they are within their right to do so. But it is short sighted for the simple reason that they have everything to gain from giving developers a reason to target MUI4 instead of ReAction for starters. They will likely gain more applications, as will everyone else.

If MorphOS can't differentiate itself without being the only ones with MUI4, then sorry, they'll lose out, because this will happen one way or the other, and the only question is how quickly.

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@vidarh
Imho current bounty too big and found volunteers on such big project will be hard. Its in general minimum 3 bounties, not one. Imho need to split it on 3 parts, and ask power2people orgs to change it a bit.

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The only thing you're achieving is a delay while we make Zune catch up. It's not an "if", it's a *when*, simply for the reason that the advantages of improving Zune means it'll more than pay for itself in developer resources spent over time.

i have no problem with you (as in aros/amigaos) trying to catch up. really.

Donate for a QT port... should be better...

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@vidarh

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Of course they are within their right to do so. But it is short sighted for the simple reason that they have everything to gain from giving developers a reason to target MUI4 instead of ReAction for starters. They will likely gain more applications, as will everyone else. If MorphOS can't differentiate itself without being the only ones with MUI4, then sorry, they'll lose out, because this will happen one way or the other, and the only question is how quickly.

But then it would be better open source everything. Why open source only just MUI 4 when you could get CGX 5, 2D and 3D drivers, all MUI based utilities and tools, external MUI classes developed for MorphOS, filesystems and many more?

As for gaining more applications, I dont think so. It is quite opposite -- with MUI 4 it could be easier port OWB-MOS or Ambient from MorphOS.

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But then it would be better open source everything. Why open source only just MUI 4 when you could get CGX 5, 2D and 3D drivers, all MUI based utilities and tools, external MUI classes developed for MorphOS, filesystems and many more?

It's a trade off between making ports as easy as possible and making their platform more attractive than the competition. Lack of MUI4 on the other platforms not so much makes MorphOS stand out from a user point of view as waste developer resources.

Generally, yes, things that mostly affect developers benefit you far more if it's open source. Developers will work around it if they have to, worst case by not targeting your platform.

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As for gaining more applications, I dont think so. It is quite opposite -- with MUI 4 it could be easier port OWB-MOS or Ambient from MorphOS.

The point is, currently AROS developers, classic developers and OS4 developers all either waste time doing stuff that MUI4 could provide for them/us and/or waste time on portability issues that would to a large extent disappear if we could all target MUI4 APIs.

Developers will be much more likely to add MOS as a target if their by far best UI library alternative is Zune and/or MUI4.

In other words, it's not just about porting stuff that's currently using MUI4, but also about creating a larger development community around a more uniform toolchain and thus increasing the pool of available software for everyone included.

If they don't wish to participate in that, fair enough, but they lose out just as much as everyone else it certainly is doing nothing to make targeting MOS appeal to people like me.

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i have no problem with you (as in aros/amigaos) trying to catch up. really.

Porting apps from LInux, OS/X, Windows etc. will still be a massive amount of work even with QT. Bringing Zune up to date is a better first step in my opinion - at least it allows us to far more easily share apps between the Amiga-like OS's.

Besides, many of use massively dislike doing development in C++... I used to use C++ extensively - I'm slowly recovering ;)

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@kiero Quote:

short sighted? what kind of reason is that? argument about applications can be also used for opening amigaos kernel or other components because it could result in more applications coming to it. see how ridiculous it is?

Nope, not ridiculous at all: The GUI is the main difficulty in having the same app on different Amiga-like OSes. Of course the OSes need to differentiate themselves with advanced features, but that's pretty much guaranteed by running on different hardware with different kernels. What we are talking about is a reasonable Lowest Common Denominator that could be shared by all Amiga like OSes.

Just to be clear: With MUI4 on OS4 & AROS, that won't stop MorphOS developers writing apps which use advanced features of MorphOS, and thus not easily ported to other OSes. And vice versa. But what it WILL do is make it much easier for those that want to write portable apps for all Amiga-like OSes. In this case everyone is a winner, and no-one is a looser (IMHO).

Last edited by ChrisH on 16-Sep-2010 at 08:24 PM.

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@kas1e Quote:

Why they (morphos team) should open their work (and be friendly to aos4), while Hyperion of course will not help and not open anything for morphos from aos

This is more than about Hyperion/OS4, it is also about AROS & even AmigaOS3.

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sure it is ridiculous. if you want common denominator then use amigaos3.x components/apis. morphos mui extensions are same thing as amigaos exec extensions. and about differentiating an os from others it's not about hardware. in many cases os sells hardware, not the oposite. at least with amigaos-like systems

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This is more than about Hyperion/OS4, it is also about AROS & even AmigaOS3.

don't use os3/aros as an excuse here. you want morphos components open so also ask for amigaos4 components to be opened. it works both ways. os3/aros users might want to develop for current reaction in same way as you would like to develop for current mui.

Last edited by kiero on 16-Sep-2010 at 08:26 PM.

@kiero Quote:

you want morphos components open so also ask for amigaos4 components to be opened.

That's a red herring, totally unrelated to the actual arguments being put forward. I also have no personal objection to Reaction being ported to AROS & MorphOS.... but I don't see any great interest in this happening either, plus the developers of it haven't ever expressed an interest in seeing it happen, where-as Stefan HAS.

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@kiero Quote:

if you want common denominator then use amigaos3.x components/apis

Yes, but as I already tried to explain, we are talking about making a MUCH more attractive Common Denominator. One that will be easier & more desirable for developers to use, and from which all sides will benefit.

The GUI is the only thing which is a major difficulty for such developers, and it's also far easier to share than other system components. Basically MUI4 is the one piece of "low hanging fruit" that is worth pursuing.

EDIT: See Vidarh's post for a better (but longer) explanation.

Last edited by ChrisH on 16-Sep-2010 at 08:33 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 16-Sep-2010 at 08:33 PM.

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you still use some statement from few years ago. that is pointless and will lead you nowhere. and i see no real argument (and benefit for morphos) being pointed here except from some people wanting to use morphos components (i'm not counting theoretical new morphos applications. people can still develop for mui 3.8) and some morphos applications thanks to it.

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Yes, but as I already tried to explain, we are talking about making a MUCH more attractive Common Denominator. One that will be easier & more desirable for developers to use, and from which all sides will benefit.

yeah, much more attractive because someone had to put work in it. work which was meant to benefit morphos. sorry man, i stand by my opinion (see my first reply). like it or not.

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don't use os3/aros as an excuse here. you want morphos components open so also ask for amigaos4 components to be opened. it works both ways. os3/aros users might want to develop for current reaction in same way as you would like to develop for current mui.

This kind of passive aggressive attitude never gets anyone anywhere.

Instead you could have seen this as a golden opportunity to completely sideline ReAction from consideration by anyone but die-hard OS4-only developers by making Zune/MUI4 the de-facto standard for UI development on Amiga-like OS's, and gain a lot of mind share.

Anyway, ultimately all that happens is you end up having less influence over the further advancement of these API's once Zune reaches feature parity and people start thinking about extending it further.

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Anyway, ultimately all that happens is you end up having less influence over the further advancement of these API's once Zune reaches feature parity and people start thinking about extending it further.

right. we can continue this thread after this bounty is completed.

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Yes, but as I already tried to explain, we are talking about making a MUCH more attractive Common Denominator. One that will be easier & more desirable for developers to use, and from which all sides will benefit.

I don't think we'll convince him of anything. Oh well :)

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@vidarh

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Generally, yes, things that mostly affect developers benefit you far more if it's open source. Developers will work around it if they have to, worst case by not targeting your platform.

Most likely they would just break dozens of existing MUI applications and leave mess behind. MUI is not such application which can be altered just because some code looks odd.

But the most importantly MUI must evolve with MorphOS. Open source developers are not going to implement our demands nor meet MorphOS deadlines.

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Developers will be much more likely to add MOS as a target if their by far best UI library alternative is Zune and/or MUI4.

What alternatives there exist to Zune or MUI 3? The system friendly AmigaOS 3 software works on MorphOS anyway. Native build is not requirement.

MorphOS could benefit if Wookiechat was built using MUI 4 features (tabs support etc). But new software? If AROS had the original MUI sources maybe Lunapaint wouldnt have so many issues when ported to MUI machines. But there is Sketch (MUI based drawing application) for MorphOS already...

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If they don't wish to participate in that, fair enough, but they lose out just as much as everyone else it certainly is doing nothing to make targeting MOS appeal to people like me.

And I dont target AROS. It just doesnt appeal me. Eeek!

(That doesnt mean I wouldnt respect AROS developers.)

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In other words, it's not just about porting stuff that's currently using MUI4, but also about creating a larger development community around a more uniform toolchain and thus increasing the pool of available software for everyone included.

Yeyeyeyeyeye. You missed the boat ten years ago when the Open Amiga was established -- and died. It has been tried and it didnt work. Nope, I dont mean that OS4 project here.

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