Quote:

Gary maybe you should accept some people have different ideas than yours.

Sure I can accept that. What gets me into these discussions isn't that somebody else has a different opinion, but that -- it seems to me -- somebody has interpreted something wrong or come to a conclusion based on incomplete reasons or whatever, things like that. I believe if you look at what I reply to and what I say, this is apparent.

Quote:

why does Genesi exist, what are their goals, their target markets? I can only assume it's because there are no answers to those questions, Genesi/MorphOS/Pegasos must have no direction.

Well, I suppose you already know that MorphOS was at one point going to be the official solution for AmigaOS on PPC. When negotiations broke down, apparently the MOS team felt they had a good alternative well underway and so no reason to shut down the project.

It's rather surprising to hear that you've never heard Bill Buck talk about the direction of Genesi, Pegasos and son on. He has done so quite a bit.

Initially the goal was to have a platform to run Commodore Amiga applications; this is the present state. The future I can't really say about, but I know the developers are intent on taking MOS beyond being merely an AOS-compatible API. Genesi also has a line of other devices existing or under development and they plan to integrate them in some way. Bill Buck is, if anything, an idea guy and has talked about integration with digital television systems, POS systems, and other things as well as desktop computing. But who knows what'll actually come.

Quote:

What does it do that I can't get elsewhere.

Well, right now it does what AOS4/AmigaOne is going to do when it's all released and working together, more or less, so that's the short answer. Longer-term, I don't know yet. I'm not saying it's great and "everybody" should buy it; I'm just saying that remarks like Dave's that it isn't interesting because it doesn't have the official seal reflect sloppy thinking or else emotional factors. Of course a lot of fans admit to those emotional factors, which is fine because they're what make all of this fun, but they also make criticism of other alternatives -- which are technically as advanced or more so -- look rather silly if they're your only basis for preference.

-- gary_c

Quote:

The fact is simply he looks on Peg/MOS as an Amiga clone - it is not innovative in the way the original machine was, in the same way the original Amiga OS was.

I absolutely agree. Genesi is pretty close to accomplishing the goal the set for MorphOS/Pegasos -- to be an AmigaOS workalike on modern hardware. Their challenge is to take the platform in some direction that will get people -- including Dave Haynie -- excited.
Quote:

For all of Genesi's comments saying they are not after Amiga users, nor do they wish to be associated with Amiga, they certainly have a funny way of going about it. They have always targetted the Amiga market, and use an OS that is very Amigalike and binary compatible to the original AOS.

I don't think they claim they are not after Amiga users; clearly their products are aimed at exactly this market. Of course there are personalities involved and I don't know where the chain reaction started. But I do think that Amiga Inc staff calling the MorphOS team IP thieves, etc., probably incited Genesi to pursue Amiga as a company and its market more ruthlessly than would have happened otherwise.

I don't really know, but it seems to me maybe Genesi's opinion of the value of the Amiga brand has ebbed and flowed over time. At times in the past they seemed to want it, felt they deserved it, thought it would be an asset or whatever, and went after it. At other times it seems to not have been considered so important. Seems like the longer the current Amiga, Inc. languishes with no resources or new initiatives, etc., the less value the brand will have. This is just my personal opinion, though. I have no idea what the thinking is at Genesi.

In any case, when MorphOS and the Pegasos were begun, maybe there was still a viable "Amiga" market remaining. Now it seems to have dwindled so the projects have outlived their intended purpose. The natural next step is to define and try to win a larger market. That's probably why all these other OSs are being ported to the Pegasos and why Bill Buck talks about integration with other kinds of systems.

-- gary_c

@Red and mountain_myst

Same here

A1 uptime 40 hours and counting .

@ gary_c

Quote:

I do think that Amiga Inc staff calling the MorphOS team IP thieves, etc., probably incited Genesi to pursue Amiga as a company and its market more ruthlessly than would have happened otherwise.

May well be so, but it is now pretty common knowledge that Amiga Inc's claims were not without foundation. I believe if Genesi would have paid 5 million USD for the Amiga IP and knew all this about a competitor they would have done something similar. Also note that BBRV was the first to emphasize Amiga's point of view by revealing a confidential email written by Fleecy.

From a legal perspective Amiga Inc must do everything they can to protect their IP. This includes their the brandname, trademarks and source code.

[Edited by MikeB]

Mike

Shouldn't AmigaWorld.net staff try and tone down these
types of discussion?

@ DaveP

You are right and I am sorry. I have edited myself to make sure nobody will take serious offence, but it does show that there's alot more to it than what is being stated.

My advise to all parties involved would be to stop the attacks on all forums. The fights have been going on for many years now and we cannot point to one single event which started all this trouble. Only one thing is certain it needs to stop soon!

@MikeB

I can understand your frustration, even as we speak on
ANN we are being accused of trying to orchestrate an
exodus of ANN members to AmigaWorld.net, an accusation
which is as delusional as it is baseless - especially considering
people do not exclusively stick to one site.

There is always more to a story than anyone can post in
public without getting themselves into hot water and we
would all do well to remember that.

Still, I expect the attacks on anyone with anything to do
with AmigaWorld.net's credibility to voice an opinion on
SOME other sites to be continued.

It seems to me the whole situation is well out of hand, rabid
even and I would look to AmigaWorld.net to not only ensure
the freedom of responsible oratory but also that of responsible
reply.

Thus, if we do not want people to wander on here posting
attacks on Amiga Inc and AOS then we should urge and moderate
site members from making attacks on Genesi and MorphOS.

Just a thought.

Dave.

Quote:

Poster: DaveP Date: 3-Oct-2003 8:39:05 @MikeB I can understand your frustration, even as we speak on ANN we are being accused of trying to orchestrate an exodus of ANN members to AmigaWorld.net, an accusation which is as delusional as it is baseless - especially considering people do not exclusively stick to one site.

It is funny how we are labelled constantly as a censorship portal, yet the level of posts actually moderated here is quite low. I have seen more posts moderated for abuse on other sites than here. I was tempted to post on ANN having waded through all 277 comments, but thought better of it. Admittedly Mikey did go a overboard quite a bit, but at least he apologised for his actions, which is more than most do.

Quote:

It seems to me the whole situation is well out of hand, rabid even and I would look to AmigaWorld.net to not only ensure the freedom of responsible oratory but also that of responsible reply. Thus, if we do not want people to wander on here posting attacks on Amiga Inc and AOS then we should urge and moderate site members from making attacks on Genesi and MorphOS.

Agreed. The attacks coming from either side do not help either cause. We have had some interesting debates here without the flaming and trolling. It would be nice if we could at least keep it that way, and just remember that some people are always going to have a differing opinion to your own.

_________________
Test sig (new)

To take in Dave Haynie's description of his Commodore days; he spoke of an intense development enviroment with highly creative people creating exciting content!

I did notice however that, with the passing years he's begun suffering from a case of decade displacement, as he spoke of working on AA in 2001! This came out two or three times!

But that's okay, I've had examples of that complaint myself -- although I'm eleven years older than DH!

_________________
-vortexau, who's A1 XE-G4 remains at half-RAM !
A2000HD (from 1991) 060 64Mb PicassoII with OS3.5 . . . still working.

@ DaveP

Quote:

as we speak on ANN we are being accused

Very unfortunate, but sadly I am not even surprised anymore...

Quote:

Thus, if we do not want people to wander on here posting attacks on Amiga Inc and AOS then we should urge and moderate site members from making attacks on Genesi and MorphOS.

Mike, have you ever thought about giving up your modorator status and giving it to Dave_P?

Even if only for a short period of time.

@ drebben

I would have no problem with the idea of DaveP gaining moderator powers. I believe he would make an excellent mod. But as I don't abuse mine I see no reason why I should give up my moderation abilities.

Needless to say moderations here at AmigaWorld have been extremely few, especially compared to the other popular alternative Amiga-related websites.

The amount of moderation may not be in question, but the reasons for moderation are.

I did not state you have or have not abused your privilage, I wondered what this site would be like if you were not a moderator and Dave_P was....

@ drebben

Quote:

The amount of moderation may not be in question, but the reasons for moderation are.

The reasons for moderations are mainly still the same as in 1999 when AmigaWorld started without some of the current staff members. IMO three golden rules are:

1) Don't swear or be otherwise impolite to other people posting here.

2) Don't make wild accusations without being able to prove your claims.

3) Respect eachother's personal opinions and believes.

Quote:

1) Don't swear or be otherwise impolite to other people posting here. 2) Don't make wild accusations without being able to prove your claims. 3) Respect eachother's personal opinions and believes.

really? nothing more?

@drebben

I don't think me as a moderator would make much difference
there are as many people out there determined to rewrite
my history, misrepresent my views and my stance and
attack me personally as there are those that just want
to get Mike Bouma off every Amiga site. Amazingly
said people that hate AmigaWorld so much seem to visit here
a lot if my reading of access.log is right.

However I do think it is insensitive of some AmigaWorld
members to kick out at MorphOS and Genesi so frequently
unless they are prepared to be reasonable and justify it
and expect some kind of retaliation. Getting off the subject
altogether would be even nicer, especially as this is a
MorphOS site as much as MorphZone is an AOS4 site.

As for AmigaWorlds policies, they are pretty clear, and moderators
have to use their own discretion to a certain extent as they
do on ANN, Amiga.org, MorphZone and sometimes even on
Moobunny.

The other thing to consider ( and I don't know whether the
moderators think about this at all ) is the posting history
of users on other sites. Patience wears a little thin I would
guess with some.

Dave.

Quote:

As for AmigaWorlds policies, they are pretty clear

No, they are not. What happened to the "Amigaworld is a site for both Pegasos and OS4 interested people, as long as discussions are meaningfull, no trolling, and everyone is polite to each other (no name calling,...)" from a couple of months ago?

The Amigaworld policy has changed a lot. Some moderators go as far as to say that this is a OS4 site only, and other users should go elsewhere (quote Mickey_C).

Maybe you should start to adopt a clear strategy and not trying to pretend what you are not? Because the policy of Amigaworld is not clear to me.

Until some months ago, there still was MorphOS news here aswell. But this has changed. And so has Amigaworld's policy with the introduction of new moderators.

_________________
A.miga D.emoscene A.rchive

@ z5

Although MOS and the Pegasos aren't taboo here at AmigaWorld, there has been a focus shift.

There were several popular Amiga websites turning into multi-platform websites and there were several dedicated MOS websites. Also because of the endless flamewars there was a demand for a more Amiga focussed website. AmigaWorld filled this gap and these are some of the reasons why we have gained so much support in so little time.

Even if MorphOS/pegasos discussions were totally banned from here why would that makes this such a bad site? Why does that equal being a bastion of we-hate-morphos-people?

There are plenty of sites already where blue vs red stuff is discussed to no end. Why does it have to go on here as well just to avoid being called the evil amigainc worshipper haven.

Clearly people can't yet discuss both platforms without raving out in pointless discussions. Why is it then so bad to try to avoid such topics and try to keep things civil? I mean not even the moderators of this site seems to be able to keep themselves out of the 'war' from time to time. What's wrong with you people that has to rave on about the vs stuff all the time?

If people want to read thread after thread of old crap being dragged around and around time after time after time then there are sites that carry such contents already. People are free to visit more than just one site on the web you know. Why does it absolutely have to go on here as well? Why is there such a huge need for this site to have the same discussions?

There are people who are constantly slagging of Aworld for being biased. To those people I have just this to say:

Theres a Vast difference between moderating comments:

1. because moderators are the evil biased morphos haters you proclaim them to be.

and

2. because people posting can't keep themselves from dragging up the old same morphos vs aos crap all the time and bringing it up using a less than friendly or seriously arrogant tone to get their 'point' across.

/Björn

Okay, Look, I admit, I went OTT on the ANN thread. I should have handled the baiting a lot better, didn't lost my head. Sorry.

Given that lack of judgement aside, I try really hard not to moderate unless I have to. recently, I have just taken to posting warnings on threads/posts etc. As long as the warnings are heeded then there shouldn't be any need for moderation.

On the focus of AW, I am in full agreement with my fellow moderators, AW's focus is primarily AOS4 now. Indeed as already stated, this site has gained many members as a result of this. From 248 since I joined in March, to over 1430, I guess we must be doing something right.


Mikey C

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No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it.