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Hardware News   Hardware News : ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
   posted by AmigaBlitter on 25-May-2006 11:11:52 (11114 reads)
This is an IRC log of the 'ack on the fly' interview (round two). I did my best to put the questions and the answers in the correct sequence. So, please, forgive any mistakes. In the evening, there was a chat session regarding the new powervixxen name, but that is another story. Enjoy.

Breaking News: The highend board will be named "PowerVixxen TL" - Thunder & Lightning


uh? Still you here?
yes
So the PCI-e is only a question of driver?
Graphics card support.
No sense in putting PCI Express on if we can't support any gfx cards.

You have all the technicals info and knowlege to put the PCI-e in the board?
That's the easy part.

If the ati range are supported by Hyperion, why not use the PCI-e?
If there are PCI Express cards from ATI that Hyperion can support, then PCI
Express is going on the board.
wow

can i add to the old Q&A?
sure
good
Thank you and good work
your welcom
your welcome I mean

15:23:58 hello
15:32:36 jahc: BTW, what price point do you have in your head
anyway?
15:32:48 ackcontrols: $750 nzd would be nice :/
15:32:58 ackcontrols: I know you cant make it lower because the 7448 is so costly
15:33:05 And what's that in USD as a reference?
15:33:07 ackcontrols: we dont need to go down this road
15:33:25 about $500 usd
15:33:31 jahc: I'm curious as if you thing it's expensive, others do as well.
15:33:45 ackcontrols: every amiga owners dream is to have amiga hardware at pc prices
15:33:58 but thats not going to happen.
15:34:03 PC prices isn't posible.....
15:35:16 ackcontrols: I know its not possible, I just said its every amiga owners dream.

15:34:22 now that is over with, ackcontrols, can one disable PV by pressing 2 during startup?
15:35:25 foody: I didn't put that in the firmware and simplified the h/w so it just takes over the A1200's bus...so it's not going to be doable.
15:35:42 Ah ok :S
15:36:05 I suppose when one buys PV he is doing it because he no longer wants to use the classic stuff anyways and wants to run OS 4.0 in his A1200 case..
15:36:22 foody: yeah, that's the point.

15:36:25 ackcontrols: is $600 usd doable?
15:36:38 jahc why are making it more expensive
15:36:44 ackcontrols: $700 usd? hehe
15:36:52 the guy was selling it for 499 now you want it to be 600!?
15:37:03 foody: I'm talking about the highend board not the PowervixenLT
15:37:09 oooh
15:37:14 ok...* whistles innocently then *
15:37:26 It all comes down to what's on the board.
15:38:06 ackcontrols: dont take my comments personally about the price.... I'm only complaining because I want one so bad!
15:38:23 jahc: I understand, and I'm always working to bring cost down.

15:38:40 ackcontrols: have you made a decision on how many PCI slots? seems people want more
15:38:46 For all intents and purposes the only way to make a low-end board cost effective is to make it a stripper board.
15:39:19 see....can't please everyone
15:39:44 ackcontrols just do what you are doing, you know best over us all
15:39:52 and we will be like children screaming to get our hands on them
15:40:02 And beyond all considerations, it's better to get somethign out (to those who want to pay for it) than to fiddle around with onboard details.
15:40:04 The best way to realize a lesser expensive board is to put the CPU right on the board, leave it PCI only and put lots of slots with nothing else onboard.

15:40:16 Ack you produce the board yourself or there is a company that you use for series production?
15:40:51 AmigaBlitter: I have a company I deal with when volumes are over 100 boards.

15:41:59 For the PCI-e problems, you tried to contact Matrox for the tech info?
15:42:43 Matrox has headed into a different direction....considered them, but not confident their boards will meet our PCI Express requirements.
15:42:56 My preference is to deal with ATI.
15:44:13 If the OS4 team can produce Warp3D and Picasso drivers for an ATI PCI Express board....PCI Express is going to be on the high end board.

15:45:46 Rogue and Entzilha are aware of this?
15:46:20 AmigaBlitter: Rogue for sure....TF....if he's reading OS4-Developer...yes.

15:43:07 ackcontrols and when a company does deal with you..would
15:43:34 foody: I don't quite understand the question?
15:44:11 I mean...hmm..better phrase it this way: If say you start selling at your expected quota and more..would that mean you can make a deal with a company where you can mass produce your products?
15:44:49 foody: When the market is over 100,000 potential customers in a short time....that would be when it's time to mass produce.

16:21:58 ackcontrols: have you made a decision on how many PCI slots to have?
16:22:39 I think I could live with 3.
16:22:52 but then I wouldnt be able to play with anything in the future.. like tv card, catweasel, etc..
16:26:49 jahc: At present, one PCI Express 16x slot, 1 PCI 66 and 4 PCI 33/66
16:27:01 ackcontrols: really?

16:27:20 (pcie). Is it a real pcie or adapted to standard pci bus?
16:27:26 That's the present direction.
16:27:47 ackcontrols: as in real pcie?
16:27:53 that would be...very nice.

16:27:57 PCI 1x from PCI connected to PCI-E 16x slot
16:28:11 Feedback is we can't take advantage of all the bandwidth
16:28:23 ackcontrols: oh, so it isn't a real pcie slot, pci limited bandwidth then. Still good ideaf or cards tho
16:28:28 The only option ATM is 1x or 4x
16:28:49 PCI-E 1x gets you 250MB/s bandwidth from a PCI 66 bus
16:28:51 ackcontrols: currently, likely true. (bw). 1x or 4x what, agp or pcie lanes?
16:29:07 ackcontrols: yes, vs what, 2GB/sec for pcie-16?
16:29:42 PCI-E 8x is roughly AGP 8x
16:30:08 nod, 256MB/sec is only agp 1x equiv
16:30:29 yes, which is what we would get in an AGP 1x (pci mode) slot anyway.
16:30:44 It's more a question of form factor and gfx card availability than anything else.
16:31:19 ackcontrols: sure, understand that. ppl will gripe, but even pcie routed as normal pci is better than normal pci, etc..so an ok compromise I guess.
16:31:33 engineering is always a compromise.
16:31:58 heh lifes a compromise most of the time :)
16:32:10 too bad no easy way to do real pcie x16. Heh, aware of that one very much lately (nearing product release, last minute feature drops and changes out the ass )
16:32:11 Once the Tsi110 is available...it's a bit of a different story.
16:32:52 ackcontrols: how many pcie lanes does tsi110 handle?
16:33:03 2 ports of PCI-E 4x
16:34:34 ackcontrols: that wouldn't be bad. Damn, no pcie 16 though...
16:35:04 hrm, pcie x4 ~ agp8x tho, so not bad at all on 4x

16:36:02 Would PCIe be all that much of a fuss on a classic system?
16:36:43 Wed: It would be like retrofitting warp drive to a lawn mower.
16:37:06 It's doable, but what's the point.
16:37:22 Yeah, I understand, but the rest of the system ought to be able keep up to make use of it, or am I totally off?
16:38:26 The Zorro III bus is the bottleneck on the A3/4K systems.....even with PCI boards, we don't get the full bandwidth available with the Mediator or the Prometheus.

16:39:38 ackcontrols i guess you will leave case to dealers and buyers, right ?
16:40:00 cases are a personal decision.
16:40:19 I'll make the board fit in standard cases and the customer can do the rest.

16:41:23 ackcontrols you have time for all this questions ? :)
16:41:30 not really
16:41:58 but I value the feedback
16:42:20 We value the ability to have info direct from the source
16:42:56 yep i fully agree on that

16:43:33 Your company, ack, is also capable of producing or assemble the troika mobo or hardware from others?
16:49:40 AmigaBlitter: I'm presently expanding operations to include design/prototype/manufacturing for 3rd parties.
16:49:48 cool
16:50:28 The intent is to be self-sufficient enough to make this worthwhile.
16:50:47 good i mean

16:51:15 Is it possible to have only one company (your for example) that coordinate all the Amiga Hardware production?
16:52:02 I'm under the impression there are others doing h/w. There is room for various products as people have different needs and budgets.

16:52:14 ackcontrols: are you financing all of this on your own?
16:52:46 Not at the moment, but can if necessary.

16:57:43 You are fast and smart, ack
17:00:10 Would be great if you coordinate all the effort to produce hardware, ack

17:00:44 AmigaBlitter: why would you (as a user) want to have only one hardware manufacturer?
17:01:00 not to mention that Troika's PR is even worse than adam's
17:01:51 Better one strong hardware producer than many weaks
17:02:20 think Troika needs to make a plan for their web site
17:02:40 or dont have one at all
17:02:43 SLayeRDK: I think troika needs to shut up until they demonstrated something
17:02:46 And i said "coordinate"
17:03:21 SLayeRDK: hehe

17:06:40 Ack, could you explain what kind of company do you have?
17:07:30 My company does design and engineering work, primarily controls engineering.
17:08:46 Technically, my company does a bit of everything.
17:09:20 How many employee works for you?
17:09:22 ackcontrols privately owned ? and how many are you ?
17:09:40 Privately owned and there are four of us.
17:10:24 All employee are engineer?

17:10:44 ackcontrols; sorry if I missed your answer to my question before, but is the number of PCI slots definately going to be 3?
17:11:38 1 pci express 16x (using pci-e 1x) 1 pci 66 and 4 pci 33/66
17:12:35 6 in total
17:13:01 ackcontrols: wow.. back on again? you addicted to IRC now as well?
17:13:15 lol
17:13:23 getting feedback / bouncing off ideas
17:13:31 ackcontrols: wow! 5 pci slots would be GREAT
17:13:54 ackcontrols: hopefully the little news item helped a bit as well.. seems they really want pci-e
17:13:56 jahc: But also, going to drop onboard USB.
17:14:05 I could get a catweasel mk4 and a tv tuner!

17:14:31 ackcontrols: with all these changes planned now, wouldn't that delay the board until q2 2007 at least? with betatesting, porting of os4, licenses and all?
17:14:57 No, zerohero
17:14:59 zerohero: No
17:15:03 lol
17:15:10 ackcontrols: how come?
17:15:34 ack took only 2 weeks to make the board? is this true ack?
17:15:36 zerohero porting is hyperions job, and they have said a port to another PPC cpu would take a month
17:15:48 ackcontrols: please dont drop USB..
17:16:19 PCI 66 slot if for combo USB/SATA board.
17:16:32 ackcontrols: please, how come it won't take longer?
17:17:06 Ack, adding 2 more usb ports will cost more or less than 30$
17:17:24 The difficult parts of the design are complete. Reworking a PCB design and getting a prototype made doesn't take long at all.
17:17:50 zerohero: that is a really weird question dude.. if he wants to give us products sooner; don't argue! :)
17:18:00 There are companies that make their living turning prototype around in 24 to 48 hours.
17:18:18 ssolie: not about what he wants, how come he is able to do that?
17:18:59 zerohero: just simple board mfg'ing... I used to make boards in university, took about a week to get a prototype back
17:19:03 ackcontrols: but betatesting it completely might take quite long, ask my xe about it ;)

17:19:38 beta-testing for the XE took as long as it did because os4 wasn't ready.
17:19:48 When you have something ready...it's a whole lot quicker.
17:20:06 i hope so...

17:20:12 I would think the XE design is much more complex as well no?
17:20:16 Too many issues with Articia and VIA added to complexities along with the fact that most stuff wasn't even finished.
17:20:25 The XE is more complex.
17:20:39 It has more parts
17:20:49 I'm stripping out complexity

17:19:27 Ack, maybe you miss the question:
17:19:30 Ack, adding 2 more usb ports will cost more or less than 30$?
17:21:03 AmigaBlitter: Why the urge for USB?
17:21:19 $69.00 USD gets a 5 port USB + 2 port SATA combo board.
17:21:56 For me, no problems. I saw the other need more. Is it possible to use an USB hub or something similar?


17:22:01 ackcontrols: and why the pcie slot? (just wondering about the motivation)
17:22:33 It comes down to part availability.
17:22:40 AGP cards are getting less available.
17:23:22 ackcontrols: are you dropping AGP altogether?
17:23:25 Whether I put an AGP or a PCI-E slot on the board requires the same amount of work
17:23:36 It's going to be one or the other and not both.
17:23:55 If the OS4 team can support PCI-Express, it is my preference.
17:24:04 As that is the way the next design is heading anyway.
17:24:10 Meaning the Tsi110 board.
17:24:18 ackcontrols: okay, I see. thx.

17:25:24 ackcontrols: are the existing supported Radeon chipsets available on PCI-Express? or would PCI-Express drivers have to be written from the ground up?
17:25:47 jahc: I'm awaiting feedback from the OS4 team.
17:26:08 It looks like supporting some Radeon PCI Express cards is doable.
17:26:19 If that's the case...PCI Express is going on the board.
17:26:29 And AGP goes away.

17:28:39 ackcontrols: can you be more specific re "I don't expect any problems regarding licensing"?
17:29:25 cgutjahr: I've spent too much time on the licensing and not enough time on the h/w.....

17:32:15 There are other question for Ack?
17:37:56 Ack, you are a hero for the Amiga Users
17:42:05 ackcontrols: I challenged HJF to deliver OS 4.1 with your next board.. let's see if he takes it :)
17:51:49 OK
17:51:58 Tahnk you, ack (adam)
17:52:06 thank you...
17:52:22 AmigaBlitter star reporter
17:52:45 hehe
    

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PosterThread
Samwel 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 8:43:16
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@Hans

I don't really understand this obsession with older hardware. Why?
UAE can be used for those kind of software.

I have a A4000 but would NEVER EVER upgrade it. Not at any cost!
Why? It's not worth it.. You never know how long it will work and
getting spare parts and people that can fix it is getting more scarse
every day. But the most important reason is performance. Or more
correctly lack there of.
I really like Amiga and want a high performance machine. To stick with
classics is really like still using a P3 1000MHz with Windows XP today.
Those that have compared that with a modern PC will know what I mean.

Last edited by Samwel on 27-May-2006 at 08:44 AM.
Last edited by Samwel on 27-May-2006 at 08:43 AM.


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ChrisH 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 9:57:04
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

Before people demand more features from ACK/Troika they should seriously ask: Do I really want the card/board to be delayed MORE months, just for this one feature they didn't think was important? And would it really benefit that many Amigans? Or would OS4 be better off having hardware NOW, even if it isn't "perfect"? (which is not possible given that everything is a compromise for any market)

I'd rather have hardware now, and then let them produce a version 2 later.


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hatschi 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 10:20:13
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Hans

Quote:
However, non-OS friendly programs (particularly games) won't like running on OS4 (or OS4 doesn't like them). For those, some sort of virtual-machine that allows them to run complete with OS3.X or less ROM will be necessary.


Virtual machine? Again: Why? For using old games, it would be much easier to have an option to deactive the Powervixxen with a simple keystroke on bootup (just like a BPPC).
No virtual machine needed (why do you want to make it more complicated?) and it would run most old games just perfectly.

@ChrisH

Quote:
Before people demand more features from ACK/Troika they should seriously ask: Do I really want the card/board to be delayed MORE months, just for this one feature they didn't think was important?


I hope you are not referring to the possibility to deactivate the PV with "more features" since this would be fairly easy to implement in the firmware.

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Hans 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 14:21:15
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4939
From: New Zealand

@samwel

When I've used UAE, it never responded like a real Amiga. It was always sluggish and you had that annoying interlacing artifacts when viewing things on interlaced screenmodes. I've been told that the sluggishness is due to poor settings but I haven't got round to experimenting with it yet.

Personally, I'm not likely to spend anything on classic hardware anymore. I plan to experiment with UAE a bit more at some point to see if I can get it to behave a bit more like the real thing.

@hatschi

Why a virtual machine? Assuming that a 400 MHz PowerPC can emulate a 68030 or higher CPU at a decent speed, it would be for people who feel that a lowly 68020 (the A1200
s CPU) is not enough. Having said that, I don't know of any game or program that is designed to take advantage of better CPUs that isn't OS friendly as well.

I support the idea of disabling the PV if desired without having to pull the device out completely. This was just responding to the idea of putting an extra 68k series CPU on the board as well. That idea, IMHO, has been made obsolete by Petunia.

Hans


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d0c 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 14:35:10
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 896
From: UK

Quote:
Ooooh, did my last post push you over the edge?

Maybe you'd inhale less vapour if you put down that soldering iron you're holding.

Hans



hehehe... no, what i mean is why pci-e and all the other crap talk back and forth... just release the damn card with:

400-500mhz, on board gf2 mx 32mb gfx card, on board 512mb ram, on board soundblaster128 with audio out,1 usb 2.0(if you want more usb use a hub!), 1 ethernet 10/100, 1 ide for hd and 1 ide for cd....... pack it with aos4.0..... give it a reasonable price.... DONE!!!! if you want "high tech" buy the other stuff....

Last edited by d0c on 28-May-2006 at 02:22 AM.
Last edited by d0c on 27-May-2006 at 02:46 PM.


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Angus 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 18:37:11
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Feb-2005
Posts: 165
From: S.W. England

>Having said that, I don't know of any game or program that is designed to take >advantage of better CPUs that isn't OS friendly as well.


As you know, most flight sims and 3D games will run better with an accelerator, check out Birds of Prey or the WHDLoad 060 friendly patch for F/A-18 Interceptor. If you haven't tried it, and you like the original, it is GREAT!

Then there's your Warheads, your Frontiers and your PowerMongers etc etc, and I know a lot of 2D games like The Settlers or Hired Guns or UFO: Enemy Unknown will process quicker and feel far more playable on a faster cpu.

The thing is, if your hardware ceiling was an A500 or a plain A1200 it doesn't really matter, but if you upgraded to 030 or 060 processors then you'll see a huge drop in performance on a lot of games if you are running on an 020.

Isn't there a UAE variant that runs on Amithlon, but only uses UAE for the custom chips?

Would it be possible to have a UAE for the PowerVixxen which used UAE for the 68000 but can access the custom chips directly?

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Hans 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 27-May-2006 19:32:50
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4939
From: New Zealand

@Angus

Thanks for the list.

You've also just proven that I never played enough games on my A1200 or I would have known about these things. From memory I had an 030@40MHz. The problem was that I ended up using it with a VGA monitor most of the time and didn't have a flicker-fixer. That really restricted the number of games I could play.

Hans


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ironfist 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 28-May-2006 1:17:57
#48 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2004
Posts: 770
From: Pegasos.org

Did I read it correctly that he's dumping the last hope for integrated
keyboard and mouse with the 2 USB-ports gone? What if you buy
the expensive board and wants to save some money by using that
USB2.0-card you already have lying around, and that card isn't supported
in the firmware.. This means that every card sold must be sold with
a working USB-card which eats up the few dollars saved on the
motherboard..

He mentioned a SATA/USB-card for 70 USD. Make that about a 100 USD
in Europe -- just to use a HDD, keyboard and mouse with your 1000 USD
motherboard. Sure, it's good that Adam tries to keep the costs down
as much as possible. But I think this has gone abit too far, really..

And, heh. Is ACK Controls a subsidiary of Pizza-box maker ACK Pack?

Last edited by ironfist on 28-May-2006 at 01:19 AM.

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Samwel 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 28-May-2006 17:47:45
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

It's actually not good if USB is dropped.
Atleast PATA and 4 USB2.0 ports SHOULD be minimum on any boards today
no matter what the extra cost would be.


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R-TEAM 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 29-May-2006 3:50:18
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2004
Posts: 269
From: Germany

Hi,

mmh .. o.k. .. I`am say a little bit ..

I will use the high-end board with an good SCSI solution...
But only for my SCA/Server HD`s and my Profesional SCSI-Streamer..
The Optical drives [CD/DVD/anything..] stay on ATA .. and ATM mostly
on PATA .. i think an onboard PATA controlor is a MUSST have...
Everything that need SATA can buy a extra card ..
And the next high-end modell [in 5-6 years] will designed with SATA
onboard .. but at the moment PATA is a good solution.
The SATA fans buy a SATA card and the SCSI fans a SCSI card ... fine for me.
[the guy`s that PATA is enough are happy anyway .. ]

Not to have sound onboard is no problem for me [on the high-end board!] .. if i buy
a "high-end" board .. i will not stuck with bad onboard sound !
[on a low-end or midrange board .. sound onboard is a good idea ..]

So .. summary ...
Need an PCIe slot for the GFX card ..
Need an FAST PCI slot for my SCSI card [or other for SATA]..
Need an PCI slot for Sound-Card ..
Need an PCI slot for TV-Card ..
Need an PCI slot for Serial/FireWire .. [need serial for my old Fax modem and
my Wacom True A4 Tablet]

mmh .. the USB problem .... i think 2 USB onboard is a MUSST have [4 is to much IMHO]..
I will conect my orginal A4000 keyboard [hope for HW and drivers -keyrah- ? ]
So i need 1 USB for the mouse ..
The other USB can atached to an Hub if more USB needed ..
And USB2.0 if nice .. but for me not a musst have ..

mmh ... hope i have nothing forgotten

R-TEAM

Last edited by R-TEAM on 29-May-2006 at 03:53 AM.


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Samwel 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 29-May-2006 22:53:18
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@R-TEAM

4 USB too much..

That's really funny! I haven't actually seen any other board on either PPC or
x86 market with less than 4 ports. 2 is actually the very minimum needed
because PS2 ports is missing needing both keyboard and mouse to be
connected through USB. Then joysticks, memory cards, USB harddrives and
many more things would need USB.

So IMHO anything less than 4 USB ports is NOT good. I would really want
6 or 8, preferably 8.

My PC has 8 USB and 5 of the is permanently occupied by web cam, scanner.
printer, DSS mobile phone stand, Bluetooth adapter. Then I have the joystick
which would need a 6th port. I use PS2 keyboard and mouse through a KVM.

On the ACK board there are no PS2 ports so 2 would automatically be occupied
by keyboard and mouse. Should I use 2 PCI slots just to get +6 USB ports???
No, this is a really bad idea IMHO.


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R-TEAM 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 30-May-2006 3:04:43
#52 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2004
Posts: 269
From: Germany

Hi,

@ Samwel

he,he .. this i the main problem for the Developers ....
The one need 6 USB2.0 ... tho other need only 2 USB1.x ......
To hold cost down .. only the absolute minnimum is on board ..
You can buy a seperate USB2.0 PCI card with no problem ..

For key/mouse .. it is possible [if you like a standart PC USB keyboard]
to use it with One slot [the data transfer is not so much...]

Joystick on USB .. mmh .. this is for me only for analog sticks a solution,
with the available USB digital joy the playing from realy advanced action
games is boring [to slow scan rate .. not good] .. i will [hopefull] conect
my old orginal Amiga joys over an keyrah adapter [USB too ]

The point is .. you can use all USB Devices with 2 slots [and 1 HUB ] ..
it is not fast and not very luxury .. but nothing say you cant buy an extra
PCI USB card .. if you need it .. and not all yours devices i think is parallel in use....

I have thinked you relize that a new Amiga ATM is NOT at the PC level of HW ...
[from the not available Web-Cam/Bluetooth software foreseen ... and the problem,
not all MobilePhones/USB-HDs work on OS4-USB ATM ....]

It is not wise for a little group of people, make the costs more expansive ...
[for me this is no problem .. but other have maybe this]

I like to see a Power5+ 8Core module Amiga with 16GB Ram and an direct on the CPU-Module
bus connected SAS controler, with an Wildcat Realizm 800 Ultra High-End GFX card
[naturaly connected over an PCIe 16x Lane] and an full fluid-cooled system ...
And Maya Unlimited [with all extra modules] native ported on OS4 ...
This would cost ... mmh .. i think more than 50k US$ [without SW!] ... and i am ready to buy this.
But this is only my desire conception ... and i think this will not happen in the next future.

For low cost ... the lowest basic equipment is the common denominators.
This is my point of seeing ..

R-TEAM


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ironfist 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 30-May-2006 10:21:46
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2004
Posts: 770
From: Pegasos.org

bPlan never had any problems integrating 4 USB on back and 2 on pin headers..

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Samwel 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 31-May-2006 9:16:27
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@R-TEAM

Wasn't this a high end board? So why does Adam try to spare a few dollars on
the USB ports?
You know the northbridge already supports 2 USB ports without adding anything.
Just draw the lines to the port on the back.

Although I would seriously recommand any board to atleast have 4 USB and a
dual channel PATA interface (PATA is still needed for DVD/CD-ROM and burners).

Even the sub $80 x86 boards have atleast 4 USB ports today, many have more.
I don't want to add 4 PCI cards just to have the basics that any board should have
as standard. Also performance will be worse.


@Ironfist

Well even the A1's have 2+2 USB ports

USB, IDE and network are absolutely essential to any board IMHO.
Add these and make the board a MicroATX instead of a full ATX to save money.
It would make the board perform better.


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R-TEAM 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 1-Jun-2006 3:32:17
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2004
Posts: 269
From: Germany

Hi,

@ Samwel :

Yes .. it is planed as High-End-Board [but focused on CPU-Power/RAM-Speed not
on the last available I/O systems -USB2.0/PCIe16lan/SATA2- !]

I think [i hope ] adam have good points to assemble only 2 USB ports [or have
the plan to do this] .. not the pure part costs .. maybe the additional routing
of the lines come to complex for a [maybe] 4 or 5 layer board and he musst switch
to an 6 layer board or somthing in this thing ...
I hope he doing this not to make the users angry

And i have [and another too i think] no use for "2" PATA Interfaces !
Many would only connect 1 CD/DVD-Burner and 1 HD to the Amiga .. no need for an second PATA..
I would connect only 1 DVD-Burner [or Blue-Ray] on the PATA .. the HDs going on
my Main Amiga only on SCSI [like UW or U160] .. so i need no second PATA ..

I hope you see my point ...

And my sister have an AMD Win computer with 4xUSB2.0 .. he need Max 2 paralell ..
[one permanent for the keyboard with mouse and partialy one for the mp3 player ...]
I need only 2 USB ...
One for my input [mouse/keyboard] .. the other on my Monitor HUB [he,he .. good to
have an Monitor with USB HUB ] for my mp3 player ..
My Cell Phone [nokia Communicator] will not supported [only Win soft]
Web-Cam not supported ...
Bluetooth .. no soft ... realy long away .. first wee need an OS4 USB stack at the Level
from Poseidon [his progger work ATM on an basic Bluetooth stack ...]
USB HDs ... maybe .. but not all run with OS4 USB stack ..
Scanner over USB .. good point .. but over my HUB no problem, i dont use my mp3
player and the scanner paralell .. and is anyway no problem [only slower]
I have a digital Cam with USB cable .. but it is faster to switch the MemoryCard
to my IDE card reader as plug the cable in the camera in [and i dont know is he
supported from the OS4 USB stack too ...]
On the HUB you can connect an USB-card reader too .. i think the time you use the
card-reader and the scanner or/and mp3-player paralell is very tiny ..

Soo .. who i need 6 USB ports ???? [and WHO need all user 4 USB ports ???]

It is nice to HAVE 4 USB slots .. and i say not NO to a board with 4 USB ..
but i write earlyer .. Adam will "maybe" have an good point for only 2 ports ..

@Ironfist

I think you have no problem to buy an Peg .. or make an better OS4 MoBo ..

R-TEAM


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Samwel 
Re: ACK Software Controls IRC Log (Part two)
Posted on 2-Jun-2006 6:39:47
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@R-TEAM

The only reason Adam would remove anything would be to save cost for the board.
There's no other reason really. Well, maybe that it's a hell of lot easier to make a board
with absolutely nothing on it. The board will be better with more of the basic stuff
onboard though. I would pay more for a better board. I think alot of others would to.

The problem I see is that almost everything today is USB and more and more stuff
will be in the future.
Keyboards, mice, printers, MIDI, scanners, memory card readers, joysticks, web cams,
bluetooth adapters, wireless network, Mobile phones, external harddrives, external
optical drives, music players, digital cameras and many more things..
You can't expect users to have to buy a USB HUB just to make use of the board..
That's bad business IMHO.

Atleast IDE is a MUST onboard as performance for multiple units over PCI is not the
highest really.. Additional USB ports other than the two that the northbridge supports
could, if needed, be added with a PCI card as USB2.0 is a relatively slow interface and
wouldn't cause performance issues.


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