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Software News   Software News : Feelin Release 20061115
   posted by Gofromiel on 15-Nov-2006 13:26:21 (4279 reads)
Although this new release is a MAJOR update, it's still very far from my goals. A huge set of features was added, mainly related to styles, but unfortunately I had to disable the preference system and some classes in order to push a release (9 monthes since last release).

About Feelin - Download page.


NB: Note that the website address is no longer http://www.gofromiel.com/feelin but http://feelin.gofromiel.com. Please update your bookmark.





SYSTEM

This version introduce Atoms, which associate a unique numeric representation to a string, making string comparison child play. I was previously using a Hash tables for this purpose, this method is far more better.


CSS

The preferences were already stored in CSS files since last release, but it was a "stupid" implementation. This updated one is still very limited, since it doesn't support selectors, but it finaly introduces pseudo classes and *real* inheritence.

Previsouly inheritence was granted because classes attributes where overriting one another, which is stupid and *very* limited. Now a 'style-cache' is created based on an object's true class and its inheritence. The 'style-cache' has the same properties as the previous 'associated data' technique: the style of an object 'type' if decoded only once and shared *a lot*. For example, if you have 1000 buttons in a window, their style is decoded once then cached and shared with the 999 others.

More over, there is now a *clear* distinction between attributes and style properties. For example, there is no longer any FA_Area_Background" attribute, but a "background" property.

Most attributes have been replaced with their CSS conterparts: "background", "border", "padding", "min-width", "max-height"... This version also introduce the "margin" property, which can now be used to add invisible space around objects.

Obviously as in HTML you can use multiple classes as style class: "button confirm warn".


ELEMENT / AREA / WIDGET

Because of the new 'styles' support, the Area class has to be rewritten. It is now a subclass of the Element class. Its sole purpose is to handle low level graphics such as backgrounds, palettes, fonds... All 'event' implementation has been moved into the new Widget class.


COLORS

CSS definitions where alreay used to define colors, but it was limited to hex values (#FF00FF), HTML keywords (aqua, black...) and Feelin keywords (shine, fill). With this update colors definitions are complete since the functionnal rgb() is now available !


IMAGES

Image specifications where defined using XML format, which was nice at the time, but I realize it was stupid and to much of a job ! Now images are simply defined as CSS does, with some extentions.

Obviously you can create solid background using the "red" keyword, but you can create a two color gradient using "red blue", a three color gradient using "red green blue", and an 'aqua style' gradient using four colors. Additionally you can define the angle of the gradient: "red blue 45°".

Brushes are currently disabled, but you can use pictures instead, and it's as simple as this: "url(logo.png") ! CSS 'positionning' is completely handled as well as 'repeat'. I've exented specification which the 'multiple' keyword, which can be used to split an image in four states: normal, touch, focus and ghost. Finaly, you can also 'tint' a transparent image by simple adding a color specification if the declaration: "url(logo.png) red".

...

Well, Enjoy !!
    

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spotUP 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 14:16:31
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 2896
From: Up Rough Demo Squad

Woah.. this release must be a bit rushed in the end?
I extracted it to RAM: and started the installer.

It didn't copy files, just add some assigns to user-startup.
OK, a setup, not an installer. The assigns added was wrong too, RAM DISK:
instead of "RAM DISK:" just to let you know. Well, I removed the
assigns, copied Feelin to Sys: and ran the setup program again.

Then it complained about an assign, Feelin:Fonts/ didn't exist. OK, I created
an empty drawer, no more complains, but what fonts are supposed to be in it?

OK, I now started a couple of demos, they all looked very trashy when resizing
their windows as they didn't redraw their windows.
Their background texture is also wrong, right now i see what i have typed here,
i.e they are 'transparent'.
All windows also look like they are too small.

Edit: I also get this message when the setup tool has finished;
[setup] :cc:15D46C1478{15F2CEBC}.Copy> Unable to open (ENVARC:Feelin/global.css)

Edit2: OK, i created the envarc:feeling/ dir and ran setup again.
Now the demos worked better with the crystal theme.
So I decided to try out some more themes, but it seems the images are missing,
a probably some fonts too. I guess that explains why i get 'transparent' windows.

Edit3: OK, trying out some skins now.

Non-working skins; Be, Butterfly, Coffea, Cold, Greenish, Olive, Oz4 (aos4?), Pearl ((?) looked a bit weird), Qnx, Redmond, Snow,

Working skins: Aqua, Crystal, Retro, Mauve, StealthOS, Unity.

EDIT4: I also get a lot of error messages when trying out the demos,
here's one from 'class2';

[class1] Text{15346BFC} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> the 'frame-id' property is deprecated !
[class2] Window{15539F2C} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> the 'frame-id' property is deprecated !
[class2] Window{15539F2C} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> please, use the 'border' property
[class2] Window{15539F2C} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> please, use the 'border' property

I hope you can sort it out, feelin looks cool! BTW, an OS4 skin would be cool,
to make it blend in better.

Last edited by spotUP on 15-Nov-2006 at 02:46 PM.
Last edited by spotUP on 15-Nov-2006 at 02:41 PM.
Last edited by spotUP on 15-Nov-2006 at 02:28 PM.
Last edited by spotUP on 15-Nov-2006 at 02:17 PM.


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Crumb 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 14:25:03
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

Does it include any kind of listtree/listbrowser class?


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dirigent 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 17:49:39
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 169
From: Unknown

Nice visuals! The "Hello World" example looks smooth and professional, unlike a good chunk of the slightly older AOS programs, to be honest.

How do you think Feelin fits into the general AOS development landscape? Have you talked with Jamie Krüger or Dietmar Eilert about possible interfaces between Feelin and their IDE tools? I think it is a good idea to cooperate and create synergies between AOS developers so that the platform as a whole can move forward effectively. Hey, big words..

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DBAlex 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 18:14:09
#4 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2006
Posts: 759
From: UK

@dirigent

Couldn't agree more! Feelin looks absolutely amazing though... looks like GTK! This is the way that amiga should be going... more modern and up to date please!

Does anyone know which apps use feelin?

If I ever get an OS4 box though I will definetely look into this GUI, looks absolutely fantastic!


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abalaban 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 23:00:45
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1105
From: France

Quote:
If I ever get an OS4 box though I will definetely look into this GUI, looks absolutely fantastic!


But Feelin is developped for 68k !! In fact Gofromiel does not have any NG hardware, all non 68k versions are indeed ports by other individuals (Hombre for 68k, YomGui/Henes for MOS, ? for AROS)


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smithy 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 23:41:23
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Aug-2003
Posts: 364
From: Newcastle

It looks great, as always! It seems we've done lots of similar work, what with XML, CSS and events that tie the two together.

Just curious... What kind of XML parser are you using? Do you parse your XML into a tree structure? Is the tree populated with graphical-related bits? Are your events tree-based too?

In Paihia, I had the problem of tree-bloating. I found CSS-related and graphical-related things would 'creep' into the tree, because there was no other place to put them. This meant that if you used the XML stuff for non-visual things you had a bloated DOM-like tree API pulling in lots of stuff you didn't need or want.. not to mention the extra memory it used. I got round this by creating tree events (node-added, node-connected, etc...), builder classes that create the tree nodes and attach listeners (the caller of the XML API can supply the builder if it wants more than a default plain tree) and wrapping it all into a factory to make it easy to create.

It's all nicely loose and decoupled now, with 3 types of node: a plain XML node, an XML-with-visual node that extends the plain, and an XHTML node that extends the with-visual node, 3 types of builder, and 3 types of factory. It was a bit of a nightmare sorting out what had turned into a monolithic thing. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had similar experiences: application-specific stuff needing to creep into your XML tree.

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Hans 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 4:21:06
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@abalaban

So how fast is it on a 68k machine? Obviously it's got to be slower than the old BOOPSI classes because it does so much more. How does it compare to MUI and Reaction (OS3.5/3.9's version)?

I'm not a big fan of having lots of different GUI toolkits installed that replicate similar functions. However, Feelin does look interesting. It would be nice if there was a uniform way of making apps that use Reaction, MUI, or Feelin have the same style/theme applied to them.

Hans


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ronaldst 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 5:36:00
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2005
Posts: 495
From: Montréal, Québec

Bon travail !

I'd love to test this out in AROS.


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spotUP 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 9:15:54
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 2896
From: Up Rough Demo Squad

so, has anyone actually tested this under os4?
did you get the same problems like me?


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Gofromiel 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:56:06
#10 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Jul-2004
Posts: 52
From: Toulouse, FRANCE

@spotUP: Sorry about these problems. I don't have modified the setup program since last release, and because I didn't have any complains, I though it was good enough. I'll fix the "space-character-in-path" and "not-existing-font-directoy" for the next release. The issue with the "font" directory is strange, because I don't have this directory either but it doesn't pop errors...

Quote:
Edit: I also get this message when the setup tool has finished;
[setup] :cc:15D46C1478{15F2CEBC}.Copy> Unable to open (ENVARC:Feelin/global.css)

Well, it's all in the message log. There is *no* default configuration in Feelin, which might cause visual wildness if the application's stylesheet cannot be opened. Same goes for HTML pages: contents, but ugly contents I'll fix the "transparent" window issue though.

Quote:
Edit3: OK, trying out some skins now.

Non-working skins; Be, Butterfly, Coffea, Cold, Greenish, Olive, Oz4 (aos4?), Pearl ((?) looked a bit weird), Qnx, Redmond, Snow,

Working skins: Aqua, Crystal, Retro, Mauve, StealthOS, Unity.

In fact, only "Aqua", "Crystal" and "Unity" have been updated. The others are still using deprecated declarations and properties.[/quote]
I'm sorry about that, but I rather like to spend the little time I have on Feelin's code then on themes.

Quote:
EDIT4: I also get a lot of error messages when trying out the demos,
here's one from 'class2';

[class1] Text{15346BFC} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> the 'frame-id' property is deprecated !
[class2] Window{15539F2C} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> the 'frame-id' property is deprecated !
[class2] Window{15539F2C} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> please, use the 'border' property
[class2] Window{15539F2C} @ Border.CreateDecodedStyle> please, use the 'border' property

This at least proves that the message loggin system is perfectly working I'll update this demos for the next release.

Quote:
I hope you can sort it out, feelin looks cool! BTW, an OS4 skin would be cool,
to make it blend in better.

Thanks ! If you want Feelin to blend better with OS4, you might want to use Intuition window's border, in which case you simply have to remove or comment the "decorator" property of the "window" declaration in the stylesheet. You can also play further with the stylesheet and once the OS4 theme is ready, send it to me

Quote:
Does it include any kind of listtree/listbrowser class?

@Crumb: No, but it includes CSS support and XML applications The "core" is not yet what I want it to be, and because I'm a lonely on the development I rather concentrate on the roots then on the leaves.

Quote:
How do you think Feelin fits into the general AOS development landscape? Have you talked with Jamie Krüger or Dietmar Eilert about possible interfaces between Feelin and their IDE tools? I think it is a good idea to cooperate and create synergies between AOS developers so that the platform as a whole can move forward effectively. Hey, big words..

@dirigent: Feelin is not finish yet I need to at least finish the roots before thinking about applications and partenership, although I will be enchanté to work with these talentuous guys (I love CubicIDE).

Quote:
But Feelin is developped for 68k !! In fact Gofromiel does not have any NG hardware, all non 68k versions are indeed ports by other individuals (Hombre for 68k, YomGui/Henes for MOS, ? for AROS)

@abalaban: That's true, I sadly use WinUAE Hombre is in charged of the OS4 version, Yomgui helped me a lot with the MOS one, and I'm still looking for someone to port a new release on AROS (a very old one is already available).

The "portage" is not really difficult now. Most of the time it's only a "compilation" matter. I use very little of the OS and nothing specific to any of them. The truth is that I'm rewritting nearly everything: memory managing, events, picture handling (particuliarly the PNG format), alpha-blending... So, features are the same for everyone, no matter the OS variant.

Quote:
Just curious... What kind of XML parser are you using? Do you parse your XML into a tree structure? Is the tree populated with graphical-related bits? Are your events tree-based too?

@smithy: I designed the XML parser to be as simple as possible. All it does is parse the XML document and create a tree of nodes and data. There is only two kind of nodes: markup and attribute. It's up to subclasses to do what ever they want with the tree. For example, the XMLApplication class create applications and the XMLObject class create objects. It's really simple.

Quote:
So how fast is it on a 68k machine? Obviously it's got to be slower than the old BOOPSI classes because it does so much more.

@Hans: The OOP engine of Feelin is faster then the BOOPSI implementation, even with all its nice features because it doesn't use a "dispatcher". It's just clever.

Quote:
How does it compare to MUI and Reaction (OS3.5/3.9's version)?

@Hans: Why don't you compare it yourself ? Feelin's rendering engine is good, especially when the GUI is updating (adding/removing of objects). The real question would be about features...

Quote:
Bon travail !

I'd love to test this out in AROS.

@ronaldst: Thanks !!

I'd love to find someone to port is and AROS


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dirigent 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 11:39:24
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 169
From: Unknown

@Gofromiel

Quote:
The truth is that I'm rewritting nearly everything: memory managing, events, picture handling (particuliarly the PNG format), alpha-blending... So, features are the same for everyone, no matter the OS variant.


So you effectively want it to be a cross-platform toolkit, at least for a number of AOS-like platforms? I think one should also try to keep collisions with existing APIs low, so that it fits better into the whole set of tools available for AOS (not to mention AOS itself and e.g. its memory management scheme, although I am not really following things very closely at the moment). Also as you say yourself that you don't have unlimited time to work on it..

How do you think about that?

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 13:41:58
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3434
From: Unknown

Few questions

1) what kind of executable produce feelings?
2) It is possible, for example, to develop in Aros and run the application on Amiga OS4?
3) The Feeling API are proprietary? or based on OS4 API?

Thank you.

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 16-Nov-2006 at 01:56 PM.


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abalaban 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 14:44:24
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1105
From: France

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
1) what kind of executable produce feelings?


Feelin is a GUI system (however more and more becoming a complete OOP framework) however it does *not* produce any executable : you have to use your favorite language/compiler to make programs (IIRC there is an option do lively create a GUI from XML file, thus you code in XML and this is interpreted at runtime)

Quote:
2) It is possible, for example, to develop in Aros and run the application on Amiga OS4?


Yes if you recompile your code.

Quote:
3) The Feeling API are proprietary? or based on OS4 API?


Feelin can't be based on OS4 as like said few posts above Gofromiel (the author) only has WinUAE to develop on and no NG hardware !


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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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petrol 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 15:03:22
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Jun-2004
Posts: 403
From: France

Great program, I hope to see some apps using it.

Last edited by petrol on 16-Nov-2006 at 03:07 PM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 15:18:36
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3434
From: Unknown

Thank you, abalaban


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Hans 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 15:27:06
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@Gofromiel

I do plan to try out feelin. However, I don't have a classic 68k Amiga at the moment and my A1XE is fast enough that even MUI apps are fast and responsive. I'm hoping someone with a 68k Amiga (preferably a slow one), will comment on how responsive feelin apps are. The real test is how it performs on slow machines.

Hans


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mr_a500 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 18:13:32
#17 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Oct-2006
Posts: 33
From: Canada

Quote:
I'm hoping someone with a 68k Amiga (preferably a slow one), will comment on how responsive feelin apps are. The real test is how it performs on slow machines.


A while ago I ran Feelin on my Amiga 500 with 33Mhz 020. (Is that slow enough for you? )

I haven't had a chance to test this latest version yet, but when I tried the 050517 version, the response was similar to MUI (using similar demos). In some cases it was marginally slower.

I'll try to be more accurate when I test this new version. (hopefully Feelin still works on 16 colour WB)

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Gofromiel 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 18:26:46
#18 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Jul-2004
Posts: 52
From: Toulouse, FRANCE

Thanks Mr a500 for your input. Since this release is faster then any previous one, even with all its new features, I bet Feelin run nice on "difficul" systems

Supporting old hardware is not my goal, but please let me now if it works nicely !


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Hans 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 18:31:36
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@mr_a500

Thanks for the info. Yes a 33 MHz 020 is slow enough. So it's a bit sluggish on classic hardware but usable. That's good to know. So I could develop an app that uses Feelin on OS4 and port it over to the classic Amiga and expect it to work ok (well, the GUI part at least).

Hans


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techie 
Re: Feelin Release 20061115
Posted on 17-Nov-2006 3:11:50
#20 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 84
From: Alberta, Canada

Very cool
Feelin continues to astound me, please keep up the good work

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