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Amigaworld.net News   Amigaworld.net News : New programming framework
   posted by smith on 20-Feb-2019 8:47:10 (1847 reads)
Information for users
The project with the working name Api2 was created to facilitate the solution of the biggest problem that all the Amiga systems suffer from, the lack of new software. Having a relatively small number of programmers, the vast majority of which creates programs only after hours, it is good to give them the opportunity to use time they have in optimal way. On the other hand, to encourage new people from outside of the Amiga community to create programs on our platform, it is good to provide them comparable framework to those they have on other platforms. This is the purpose of Api2. It provides a set of components for creating applications that support typical functionalities used in programs, both graphic (windows, panels, buttons, etc.) and non-graphic (collections, documents, file system support, etc.). By using ready made elements developer can focus on the functionality of the created program instead of the implementation details.
To keep development going quickly and to reduce time between successive releases at least one person must work on this project full time. To make it possible, funding is needed to cover the costs of salary, social security and taxes. If you like this project and want it to progress, please support it on https://www.patreon.com/trifle

More details http://api2.trifle.eu/index_en.html



Information for programmers
Api2 project aims to provide a framework and tools to help in quick applications creation without going into details that are not related to their main functionality.
Api2 is not a port from another platform, it is written from scratch and extends BOOPSI idea. However, it is more convenient to use. It does not require manual generation of method and attribute identifiers, reports compilation errors when one calls a method with parameters of mismatched types and does not require writing of dispatcher. In addition, thanks to exceptions, one does not have to check each call for correctness of result. The lack of arithmetic of pointers allows even novice programmers to efficiently create code. It is also designed to ensure compatibility at the source level between all amiga like systems. There is more detailed information and sample programs here. The Api2 project is in a very initial phase, there are very few components, it is not yet suitable for use and at this stage should be treated as a demo. We hope we will be able to develop it so the framework will quickly gain in functionality.
    

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OlafS25 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 21-Feb-2019 9:38:56
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

It is all a little vague

What platforms exactly? Who would do it?

All platforms are very different and even the common parts are different in detail

If you would propose a framework for one platform and a experienced developer interested it would be more realistic (but only interesting of course for developers interested in that platform)

And of course you must offer a more detailed concept. I doubt that now many will give money

And you write "fulltime" with full salary. That are thousands of euros every month. I doubt that you find enough donators for that

For me the most realistic concept would be to create something for hollywood (I am thinking about that already myself). It is cross-platform, very advanced with even professional features and already one dedicated developer behind.

Or create a class library for free pascal

Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-Feb-2019 at 09:46 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-Feb-2019 at 09:45 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-Feb-2019 at 09:41 AM.

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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 21-Feb-2019 19:03:32
#2 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Quote:
All platforms are very different and even the common parts are different in detail


I am usung AmigaOS3.1 API only, so there should be no problem achiving the goal.

Quote:
And of course you must offer a more detailed concept. I doubt that now many will give money


Please tell me what do you want to know more?

Quote:
And you write "fulltime" with full salary. That are thousands of euros every month. I doubt that you find enough donators for that


If every amiga user/fan donate $5 there will be more than enough funding.

Quote:
Or create a class library for free pascal


This framework is in binnary form, it is not bound to certain language. If something use Amiga libraries It can use API2.

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cgutjahr 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 22-Feb-2019 0:29:34
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 961
From: Unknown

Quote:

at least one person must work on this project full time

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

*takes deep breath, wiping away the tears of laugher*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

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Snorg 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 22-Feb-2019 3:48:42
#4 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Feb-2018
Posts: 117
From: Unknown

It's a fine effort, and taking the initiative is certainly a good thing. Maybe is it possible to derive income from your coding investment, but there needs to be a compelling reason for the few programmers (even users) out there to adopt it. Specifically, lots and lots of useful components.

Although you have, I'm sure, already put a lot of time and effort into this, asking folks to spend money for a framework is a difficult pitch.

Sorry to say I can understand the scepticism at $7,500 per month / $90,000 per year. Dropping two zeros from that figure, I expect, might be realistic - at least getting started. Honestly, you have to earn some trust and mindshare before asking for anything in return.

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kas1e 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 22-Feb-2019 11:15:49
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3536
From: Russia

There is almost no fanboys left who will give money just because AMIIIGGAAAAAAA. Today even for ready to use and already released stuff not so many will have interest to pay or donate. Probabaly hot air can be sold somewhere else. All user who there , even those hardcore optimists and fanboys, even they learn the truth :)


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OlafS25 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 22-Feb-2019 11:31:06
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

As kas1 wrote... too many people are burnt already, even the hardcore supporter

Your ideas are very vague at the moment, it would be better if you would have already finished parts and have something to show the benefits and then ask for more support

I will only donate too for exact defined tasks where successful completion can be controlled or to open source software when it makes sense to me (like it did with Magellan or OWB)

If you would define a task you do and set up a bounty and after completion you get money then perhaps (if it makes sense) but just because you want to be paid I do not think that many will be interested to give money

Last edited by OlafS25 on 22-Feb-2019 at 11:36 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 22-Feb-2019 at 11:31 AM.

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ASiegel 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 23-Feb-2019 8:32:42
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@ kas1e

Quote:
There is almost no fanboys left who will give money just because AMIIIGGAAAAAAA.

Just quick a reminder: As recently as 5 months ago, "AMIIIGGAAAAAA" fans raised more than 100.000 EUR (! ! !) on Kickstarter to finance a project that aims to deliver each buyer a chunk of plastic that looks different than chunks of plastic they already own and is somewhat reminiscent of chunks of plastic that were deemed fashionable 20 years ago.

Given this fact, I think it is only fair to say that there is plenty of money to go around.

Unfortunately, it turns out this community is only interested in providing serious funding for projects of a superficial cosmetic nature (with a focus on "retro" looks).

Why fund new useful and / or fun software to run on your niche hardware if you can put it in a shiny new case and stare at it instead?

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Yssing 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 23-Feb-2019 9:44:56
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1070
From: Unknown

Well I like it very much. I don't think you can make it a fulltime work. But go for it!


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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 24-Feb-2019 9:20:47
#9 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Quote:
Your ideas are very vague at the moment, it would be better if you would have already finished parts and have something to show the benefits and then ask for more support


I think I have already show something. There are demo programs which you can run. There are includes and library you can test. Framework is far from being ready, but the ground work is done and it was the hardes one.

Quote:
If you would define a task you do and set up a bounty and after completion you get money then perhaps (if it makes sense) but just because you want to be paid I do not think that many will be interested to give money


The Patreon way is the only way to develop API2 quickly. If it would last for years to create next few components it does not make any sense. Is $5 such an anourmous amount of money that you cannot risk donating it (considering you don't believe I will do smoething more)?

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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 24-Feb-2019 9:25:49
#10 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

So I welcome you to become a patron

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ASiegel 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 24-Feb-2019 15:17:09
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@ smith

Quote:
Is $5 such an anourmous amount of money that you cannot risk donating it (considering you don't believe I will do smoething more)?

I am sorry but this is a ridiculous argument.

Why don't people pay people 7500 USD per month to a guy who promises to make each of them a millionaire if they just wait long enough? Afterall, it is just 5 USD per month. That is not a lot of money so it should be a small risk for a potentially huge reward, i.e. becoming rich, right?

The reality is...

5 USD per month equates 60 USD per year which is more than people spend on operating system licenses or updates which are usually being developed by TENS of people - often for little or no compensation whatsoever.

Despite people being more than willing to invest huge sums of money on plastic shells und keys for their niche hardware, there appears to be a highly restricted amount of money available for software development.

With a monthly budget of 7500 USD, there are many things (improved web browser, an office suite, etc.) you could jumpstart that would be guaranteed to provide obvious value to end users - unlike the project you are proposing.

The validity of your entire project hinges on your very own assumption that yet another development framework will magically result in a groundswell of new applications and games being developed.

I, for one, happen to disagree with this theory.

While simplifying development is certainly helpful in general and be achieved through various means (such as improving documenting and providing tutorials and sample code), there is no guarantee that a sufficient amount of developers will be interested to invest the time that is necessary to learn how to use a new framework just so they can then potentially create software for end users.

Is it theoretically possible? Perhaps. But I certainly would not bet an annual development budget of 90.000 USD on this feeble idea. Nor 5 USD per month for that matter. There are so many other things that would provide a MUCH better risk / reward ratio.

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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 24-Feb-2019 23:17:44
#12 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Quote:
I am sorry but this is a ridiculous argument.


OlafS25 wrote that I had shown not enough to trust me. It is the origin of my argument. You do not have to trust me to take such a small risk.

Quote:
With a monthly budget of 7500 USD, there are many things (improved web browser, an office suite, etc.) you could jumpstart that would be guaranteed to provide obvious value to end users - unlike the project you are proposing.


Ok, let's consider office suite. Part of it is a text editor. Main part of it is text editing functionality with text styling, option to insert images, tables, etc. First option: I decide to develop text editor of office suite. Result: text editor of office suite. Second option: I decide to create text editing component for API2 with all mentioned functionality. Result: component which can be used to create: text editor of office suite, code editor, note taking application, instant messaging application, ... typewriter simulator. So which option is better for end user?

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Deniil715 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 25-Feb-2019 8:29:10
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4226
From: Sweden

@smith

Isn't this what Hollywood does? That is a language of its own, while this is based on C++ I presume.

But the principle of making it easy for people to just start developing without having to deal with annoying details is exactly what Hollywood offers. And it supports 4 major platforms with 15 variations.

Is API2 going to be a low-level approach with the same idea? You talk about BOOPSI (wrapped in C++ classes I assume). Sounds like a good idea, but is it good enough to attract outsiders, steal some Hollywood developers, and convince regular Amiga E/C/C++-developers to jump to API2?

MUI/ReAction already makes life in GUI-world a lot easier, although you have to deal with the BOOPSI-shit hands-on.

My point is that I'm afraid of even more splits between development platforms.


_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 25-Feb-2019 15:24:09
#14 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

API2 is not a new programming language. It is library written in C which can be used like other libraries. It does not use BOOPSI but provides dynamic binary objects just like BOOPSI does. API2 is not about GUI only. It provides/will provide components to create whole application (collections, string, file, GUI, etc.). The goal is to create components which are efficient and ease to use and fit to each other without a need of writing glue code.

Last edited by smith on 25-Feb-2019 at 04:18 PM.

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Deniil715 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 25-Feb-2019 15:48:53
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4226
From: Sweden

Ah, like the .NET framework? Yeah, something like that would be nice.

Chris wrote something like that for his PortablE (typed Amiga-E) language.


_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 25-Feb-2019 16:19:12
#16 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Yes, something like .NET framework

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BSzili 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 26-Feb-2019 10:59:43
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 443
From: Unknown

I'm not sure if the dearth of new Amiga software is caused by the lack of such a framework. Even if it was, doing it in C kind of defeats the purpose. There were earlier attempts at doing this, but they saw little adoption. I think the MorphOS initiative of using Objective C to hide the nastiness of doing OOP in C is a step in the right direction. It's probably not suited for slow 68k hardware though.

Either way, good luck with your project, but be prepared that the Amiga community became too jaded to support software projects like this.


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smith 
Re: New programming framework
Posted on 26-Feb-2019 12:23:21
#18 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Please look how OOP is done in API2. It hides all ugliness, is ease to use and looks better/more natural than ObjectiveC.

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