@MikeB

BluRay on the PS3 was great for the format war but bad for the PS3.

@Lou

In general I don't agree.

From the perspective of the PS3 having been cheaper to make, so there would have been a bigger early userbase and/or easier to generate a profit for Sony, with regard to this I agree.

However games like MGS4, Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, etc would have seen lots of storage related sacrifices. For the long run I don't think the price difference will matter that much compared to coming with just a DVD player instead.

@MikeB

Well, if Sony had just used HD-DVD on the PS3, the PS3 would have been cheaper faster and still supported large capacity media ... and I believe HD-DVD had faster access which is a complaint of BluRay.

So, really, they only put BluRay there for the sake of BluRay's existence.

@Lou

HD DVD drives were half the speed of the PS3 Blu-Ray drive, had worse seek times, eject and load times were bad as well.

In addition the format itself provided less storage capacity, is more scratch prone, used more closed technology and provided lower maximum bitrates for high definition movies.

A good majority of manufacturers and content providers preferred Blu-Ray disc.

It would have been cheaper than Blu-Ray initially, but more expensive than a DVD player as well.

Great article about the Quantum3 engine:

http://wii.ign.com/articles/982/982962p1.html

and a great post by a developer:
http://blogs.ign.com/HV_TheConduit/2009/05/14/120421/

Quote:

It needed to be able to handle lighting properly for large numbers of light sources of a variety of types that would apply to an extremely flexible material system for skinned and nonskinned objects. We had an overall idea of what we wanted to implement but had no idea if the Wii would get bogged down when the advanced techniques were combined. What we found really surprised us. We kept adding features to the pipeline and the Wii kept up. It really excelled in the area of texture fill and we focused a lot of our efforts on refactoring graphics techniques onto the flexible interface we provided ourselves to the Wii hardware. We were able to get beautiful radiosity lighting effects combined with many dynamic lights, projected texture lights, applied to materials featuring normal mapped lighting, reflection, refraction, detail maps, and much more. I don’t want to be misleading, obviously we couldn’t “turn everything on” for every surface. But there was enough performance and flexibility for our artists and designers to create the dramatic settings and explosive conflicts in The Conduit and support twelve player multiplayer gameplay. Throughout this process, we worked hand-in-hand with the art staff iterating on technology and techniques. Some conventional approaches were either impossible or too expensive to use. We had to invent some new ones unique to our engine and this game, including dynametric light tightening, reframbriance, and approxiflexion to name some of the more interesting.

I hope this studio pics up some former Factor5 employees as Factor5 closed it's doors last week.

Last edited by Lou on 20-May-2009 at 06:40 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou HD DVD drives were half the speed of the PS3 Blu-Ray drive, had worse seek times, eject and load times were bad as well.

How does this differ from the mandatory HDD installs we (err...YOU) have now?

Quote:

In addition the format itself provided less storage capacity, is more scratch prone, used more closed technology and provided lower maximum bitrates for high definition movies.

There you go with movies again...how does that benefit games. Regardless, HD-DVD format was quite a competent format.

Quote:

A good majority of manufacturers and content providers preferred Blu-Ray disc.

and a good many didn't...

Quote:

It would have been cheaper than Blu-Ray initially, but more expensive than a DVD player as well.

...and cheaper in the long run... In the end, the price is the PS3's #1 issue. If you ask me, it's more of an issue than that RROD... Think I'm wrong? Look as sales figures...but that's a dead horse that simply proves my point that BluRay was bad for the PS3.

@Lou

Quote:

How does this differ from the mandatory HDD installs we (err...YOU) have now?

What do you mean? Most 1st and 2nd party games are very light weight with regard to harddrive installs, they are also the most impressive and demanding PS3 games available.

No mandatory install: Kilzone 2, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, etc.

- LBP requires 4 MB, with the latest update it's 480 MB.
- Resistance 2 with latest update is 333 MB (300 MB minimum)
- Resistance 1 with latest update is 311 MB (130 MB minimum).
- Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction with latest update 417 MB (137 KB minimum).
- etc.

Of course ports of games designed for DVD loading routines may encounter a few issues easier and cheapest overcome by a harddrive install (quick & dirty).

Quote:

There you go with movies again...how does that benefit games.

It's a great and free additional option to take advantage of, but if you insist then in theory you could generate high bitrate Blu-Ray movie quality cutscenes. You don't have to make use of SMS on your mobile phone, but it's nice that you can if you decide to.

Games and movies are both forms of entertainment, so a very nice fit to have within one device!

Quote:

and a good many didn't...

Very few actually, only Toshiba (duh!) and Universal (for whatever reason I don't know).

@MikeB

Assassin’s Creed——–(Required) 1.3Gb
Brother In Arms Hells Highway-(Required) 2.1GB
Devil May Cry 4——–(Required) 4.83 GB
Dark Sector ————(Required) 1.2 GB
Dynasty Warriors 6—–(Optional) 1.86GB
Eye of Judgement———(Required) 1.9GB
Folklore——————-(Optional) 1.04GB
GTA IV——————-(Required) 3.3 GB
GT5 Prologue———–(Required) 5.24GB
Genji: Days of Blade—(Optional) 2.14GB
Haze ——————–(Required) 4.0 GB
Hot Shots Golf 5 - ——(Required) 3.61Gb
Heavenly Sword——–(Required) 2.1GB
Medal Of Honor:Airborne-(Required) 1.95 GB
Metal Gear Solid 4—–(Required) 4.6GB
Ninja Gaiden Sigma—–(Optional) 3.3Gb
Oblivion———————(Required) 4.6GB
Oblivion GOTY————–(Required) 5+GB
Ratchet & Clank Future-(Required) 0.42GB
Resistance: Fall of Man–(Required) 0.22GB
Ridge Racer 7 ————-(Optional) 5GB
Spiderman 3—————(Required) 2.6Gb
Time Crisis 4—————(Optional) 2.45GB
Unreal Tournament 3 -(Optional) 2.4GB
Virtua Fighter 5——–(Required) 2.34GB
Warhawk w/o boosters (Required) 0.8GB

...mmmmm k

Again, since this is more the norm, how would it be any worse with HD-DVD?
Once again, let me re-iterate that PRICE is the PS3's biggest weakness.

BluRay for PS3 = win for format war = loss for PS3 sales due to cost...

What's that old saying about biting one thing to spite another?

@MikeB

Quote:

Very few actually, only Toshiba (duh!) and Universal (for whatever reason I don't know).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/29/hollywood_hd_dvd/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/07/hd_dvd_movies_announced/

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1042763/hd-dvd-declared-dead

So whats the typical song and dance Mike. We point out not just Universal was an HD-DVD exclusive studio. Then you come back and say "yes, but that does not mean they "preferred" the format"? Then you'll likely pull out some obscure, not relevent quote from somewhere, possibly one quoting yourself as "proof" that you are right and that Lou was wrong to say "and a good many didn't". When in fact Lou is obviously right and you are not? Its mind boggling how far you will go with BS, really.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 20-May-2009 at 09:52 PM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

But IMO for the sake of relevance, then of course performance should be compared to similar companies.

Show the relevance then. What does Sony vs NEC losses have to do with Sony's console war with Microsoft and Nintendo? If you want to try to tie it in as meaningful you need to do so via *something* of substance.

Quote:

However looking at the big picture, Sony certainly was willing to invest billions to make sure they win the format war and they won this quicker than expected due to the PS3.

So you dispute the reality that article after article spoke of the uncertainty of who would win for quite a while, and that the length of the war was harmful to both sides? Why do you find it necessary to make up a revisionist history? Or will we hear *again* about the bias of U.S. / U.K. media towards Sony as the excuse for that?

Quote:

What a bad example, it not like Sony just lost the money regarding PS3 sales.

Twist, twist, twist, as usual Mike. The example was clearly only to show that saying one company having bigger losses than another company is not the whole picture, because one company may be better able to afford the bigger loss anyway. You can't meet people toe to toe on points (or you don't care to bother), so you do the dance once again.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 20-May-2009 at 10:13 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 20-May-2009 at 09:55 PM.

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@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: @MikeB Assassin’s Creed——–(Required) 1.3Gb Brother In Arms Hells Highway-(Required) 2.1GB Devil May Cry 4——–(Required) 4.83 GB Dark Sector ————(Required) 1.2 GB Eye of Judgement———(Required) 1.9GB GTA IV——————-(Required) 3.3 GB GT5 Prologue———–(Required) 5.24GB Haze ——————–(Required) 4.0 GB Hot Shots Golf 5 - ——(Required) 3.61Gb Heavenly Sword——–(Required) 2.1GB Medal Of Honor:Airborne-(Required) 1.95 GB Metal Gear Solid 4—–(Required) 4.6GB Oblivion———————(Required) 4.6GB Oblivion GOTY————–(Required) 5+GB Ratchet & Clank Future-(Required) 0.42GB Resistance: Fall of Man–(Required) 0.22GB Spiderman 3—————(Required) 2.6Gb Virtua Fighter 5——–(Required) 2.34GB Warhawk w/o boosters (Required) 0.8GB

(Optional listings removed from quote above)



Which then leads to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuyQPW3bDS0

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 20-May-2009 at 10:28 PM.

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@all

Great news for PS3 owners who own Fallout 3 or those who do not yet own Fallout 3, the PS3 version is finally equally attractive content-wise:

Fallout 3 downloadable content (DLC) is coming to PS3.

http://www.gamersdailynews.com/story-11344-Fallout-3-DLC-for-PS3.html

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 21-May-2009 at 04:45 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Windows Vista SP2 comes with "support for burning Blu-ray data discs” .

Sure. But, I'm not quite sure what this has to do with a console that doesn't play Blu-Ray yet has HD downloadable movies that cover the opportunity if you want to use your console for HD content? I think it doubtful that Microsoft will make a Blu-Ray player that connects to the 360 like the HD DVD connector did.

Actually, Toshiba (I think I have the company right) has shown HD movies on memory cards. That might be another avenue for Microsoft to leverage for HD movies. Why buy a Blu-Ray when one could buy a thumbnail chip with the same content? Also why build a drive when a USB port and $10 reader would do. I doubt MS is considering this option this generation but I wouldn't be surprised if it's supportable on a future console, simply because it's so new.

@Lou

Quote:

- Wii: 340K -261K (-43%) - Xbox 360: 175K -155K (-47%) - PS2: 172K +60K (+87%) - PS3: 127K -91K (-42%)

So in April the PS2 beat the PS3? Might be good for Sony's bottom line in a downed economy because the PS2 doesn't lose them $. But, thinking of the longer term this sets them back further this generation. If someone is buying a PS2 they likely won't buy a console for a couple of years. That's 2011 and I suspect Wii2, Xbox3 will be coming to market about the same time. Maybe Sony is hoping for the laggerds and hoping that person next time will want a PS3 against the new consoles. So PS3 may well win this generation, when the competition moves onto the next gen...

PS3 exclusive RPG Demon's Soul has been confirmed to be released outside of Japan:

The game enjoyed much praise, here a trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVxeiLxVajc

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Hammer Quote: Windows Vista SP2 comes with "support for burning Blu-ray data discs” . Sure. But, I'm not quite sure what this has to do with a console that doesn't play Blu-Ray yet has HD downloadable movies that cover the opportunity if you want to use your console for HD content? I think it doubtful that Microsoft will make a Blu-Ray player that connects to the 360 like the HD DVD connector did. Actually, Toshiba (I think I have the company right) has shown HD movies on memory cards. That might be another avenue for Microsoft to leverage for HD movies. Why buy a Blu-Ray when one could buy a thumbnail chip with the same content? Also why build a drive when a USB port and $10 reader would do. I doubt MS is considering this option this generation but I wouldn't be surprised if it's supportable on a future console, simply because it's so new.

CES '09 shows 100 HD Movies on a Stamp-Sized Chip.

"The SD Association is labeling the new format as "SDXC," and according to the organization, the spec will be released in Q1 2009. The big deal with this new format is that it increases current storage capacities of 32 GB up to a whopping 2 TB. The format also increases SD interface read/write speeds up to 104 MB per second. Beyond that, the SD Association is shooting for 300 MB per second."

Refer to http://www.tomshardware.com/news/sd-hd-movies,6796.html

Blu-Ray ROM would almost come-free with DVD-RW in new PCs. About $64 USD OEM Blu-Ray ROM+ DVD-RW (for laptops).

Last edited by Hammer on 21-May-2009 at 11:06 AM.

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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: - Wii: 340K -261K (-43%) - Xbox 360: 175K -155K (-47%) - PS2: 172K +60K (+87%) - PS3: 127K -91K (-42%) So in April the PS2 beat the PS3? Might be good for Sony's bottom line in a downed economy because the PS2 doesn't lose them $. But, thinking of the longer term this sets them back further this generation. If someone is buying a PS2 they likely won't buy a console for a couple of years. That's 2011 and I suspect Wii2, Xbox3 will be coming to market about the same time. Maybe Sony is hoping for the laggerds and hoping that person next time will want a PS3 against the new consoles. So PS3 may well win this generation, when the competition moves onto the next gen...

Perhaps some of those PS2 sales could have instead been PS3 sales if backwards compatibility was still a feature of the "feature-rich" PS3.

@Hammer

Quote:

The big deal with this new format is that it increases current storage capacities of 32 GB up to a whopping 2 TB

Now this is a format I can get behind! I see lots of pros of this format. The datasize is larger than Blu-Ray. This can allow for more content and higher quality content. The media size is smaller allowing for better mobility. This means I can buy once and have a format that a phone, a handheld, a car stero, and a Home Theater setup could all use. No more transitioning the content to different media. No physical mechanisms, players should be more reliable. And likely less power draw than Blu-Ray, which did increase power usage over DVD. 300MB/s of course beats the Blu-Ray/HD DVD rates by a wide margin. HD DVD and Blu-Ray transfer rates are the same at the same speed. 1X is 4.5MB/s, and 2X is 9MB/s etc. The con I can see is these would be easier to lose.

MikeB is always worried how much damage a kid does to a DVD which is why he loves the Blu-Ray requirement for the special coating. I suppose the con here is MikeB's kids can eat the memory chips easier.

@Lou

Quote:

Perhaps some of those PS2 sales could have instead been PS3 sales if backwards compatibility was still a feature of the "feature-rich" PS3.

I agree.

I think the story so far on Sony's PS3 is that too many new technologies means a console cost that is too high for consumer spending. The Cell and Blu-Ray were both expensive inventions. Blu-Ray looks to have a decent future. The Cell? Lots of talk but nothing on the street really. The result has been cut backs to the console (loss of backward ability) in order to stem the tide of corporate losses.

Is this good for the consumer? Luckily Sony is diversified into other products and Blu-Ray helps line their pockets in another way so they will make it. But the dark clouds in their gaming divison were predicted by the industry before the PS3 was launched and Sony has yet been able to bring in the sun and move the clouds away.

Playstation Home has just been updated!

Apart from this check out the Presentation Room, very slick! Hope they'll perform live coverage from E3 there.

The new Resistance Home mini-game is very well done and luckily no waiting lines for that one!