@T_Power

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T_Power wrote: @mbilla Like yourself I've now wasted some time reading most of this thread. Sigh....

I think it was well worth the read for the most part. :)

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I see Dave has joined the discussion and in "demi-god" like fashion believes he is above the rules of this sites and has no qualms about personal attacks, name calling and generally believing his view is correct and us users (cavemen ) know nothing.

To me it looks like people have always been treated differently here depending on who they are. Nothing new or shocking there, only this time the rules are bent for someone you seem to disagree with. Then again, maybe most people think like me, have reasonably thick skin and don't immediately reach for a "report" button when they see something they don't like. But I don't see Dave acting like some sort of diva, or expecting special treatment, or being condescending towards people merely for disagreeing with him, as you seem to suggest he is. I see him being understandably pissed off at some irrational religious thinking and, in this case, some "PPC good, x86 baaad" rhetoric delivered without any sane reasoning behind it.

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Just as some in the "other" thread don't seem to get it, currently AmigaOS doesn't stand ANY chance on the desktop no matter what CPU is used. CPU and H/W platform does matter, and I'll give my reasons later. Introducing AmigaOS only on the desktop currently is a dead end with no future prospects. It will of course be useful to us hard core users and some old users wishing to see what is going on. But in a very short time with not many up to date apps, interest for old users will wane, and they will leave. With this the market will gain a slight "Blip" in sales and then stagnate and die. What I believe Hyperion is trying / hoping to do is release AmigaOS an a PPC platform to the hard core users and some old users so they have a desktop / DEV. system with which to create APPS. for a different market. i.e. PDA's, cell phones, STB, embedded devices, etc. The reason for this strategy is to again build up a brand name, and have some market penetration. NEW users of these devices will become used to the easy way AmigaOS works and then possibly be interested in a desktop in the FUTURE.

IMO it's only "dead" on the desktop in the sense that it won't grab a noticeable chunk of the desktop market, since only (or mostly) "enthusiasts" could be interested in it, like Zeta or what-have-you. OTOH, I think it's completely dead altogether in the "it's pointless" sense as long as it's locked-in for no good reason to "special" hardware from "special" vendors on a "special" market. That goes for whatever CPU family it may run on, and especially for the current one where hardware and hw vendors aren't exactly abundant!

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Why PPC CPU and "lock in"! In Commodore - Amiga's days there was absolute "lock in", because one vendor provided the H/W and OS'es (AmigaOS & Unix). Money was made on the package. No one complained back then about H/W "lock in". Commodore made money on the H/W and OS, plus sales of OS upgrades. The OS upgrades were even "locked in" to PROM upgrades! (This I admit was over-kill, and a logistics night-mare)

What would Commodore or Amigas have to do with anything? They're both dead and gone, with one infamous and one famous place, respectively, in computer history. Neither one of them is planned to make a come-back. The compulsory hardware licensing/bundling/dongling scheme might be seen as a quaint and anachronistic attempt to relive the glory days, but it's done without having any glory to revive and by trying to be "special" for no other reason than being "special" (and to subsidise a totally unnecessary monopoly on distributing 3rd party hardware).

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If the product was good sales were guaranteed and profits were made with close to ZERO loss due to pirating.

AInc/Eyetech dealing the "piracy card" back in 2002 was a red herring, a nonsensical argument to justify the lock-in. They knew they'd probably get some knee-jerk support when people saw the P-word.

Think rationally. What's the desired result of anti-piracy measures in general? That's right, earning more money by getting more people to actually PAY for your product -- to sell more copies than you would have sold without the anti-piracy measure in place. But that's not a possible result of the weird kind of lock-in that AInc now imposes on AmigaOS.

Let's pretend that the alleged "anti-piracy measure" would actually prevent piracy, and ponder on this; which of the two options below will make you, the software producer, the most money and gain the best market penetration for your software product?:
A. Sell 1,000 copies to a small group of stalwart fanatics, only bundled with licensed hardware from licensed vendors. There are 0 pirated copies.
B. Sell let's say 5,000 copies, both shrinkwrapped for people to install on their hardware no matter where, how, when or with which pointless trademark they bought it, and also bundled with licensed hardware. There is also an unknown number of pirated copies.

A. is what we have today (less the purely hypothetical zero piracy), and it results in a less attractive product, fewer users/developers, slower development, fewer possible hardware options, et c. -- and less money to the software producer. It's the reason to why Hyperion and us, the customers, are sitting waiting for a goddamn hardware licensee to come along instead of immediately beginning work on e.g. Peg or Mac compatibility and sell, sell, sell.

Trying to stop piracy by refusing to actually sell your software to people is silly. But we all know that piracy simply will not be stopped, ever. Any protection is cracked sooner or later, so let's have a type of protection that at least makes some sense and doesn't kill the product that's supposed to be protected.

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Commodore & Amiga failed due to bad management with no vision or direction, which in the end produced bad and unsupported product. The failure was NOT due to "lock in".

Again, CBM and Amigas are irrelevant. CBM had control over and sold their own hardware, and the hardware was great, competitively priced and a reason by itself to buy an Amiga (until development stagnated, the competition caught up, and AmigaOS was dragged down with the rest of the sinking ship). Now all that is gone. There are no more Amigas, and there's no need for an Amiga, and nobody's going to make any custom HW that is ahead and will stay ahead of the competition and dedicate this exclusively to AmigaOS. Hardware is a commodity, the problem is that the current scheme removes the possibility to actually take advantage of this development. Doing the same on x86 wouldn't be any more clever. It's the people in charge who behave like cavemen that bother me the most, not users.

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H/W "lock in" is a way for a company to protect their IP and "product family" from been diluted by customers and opposing market segments. Huh, what PR babble is this!

Yeah. Care to explain that in English? ;)
AInc or Hyperion don't have any hardware IP or sales to protect. I already said why I don't think it has anything to do with protection of AmigaOS (other than "protection" against actual sales and a slight chance of some sort of revival).

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Look at the current example of the X-BOX. MS's box builder used almost standard x86 PC parts for the X-BOX. Hackers broke the protection (customers) which allowed pirating of S/W and the Linux (opposing market segments) crowed bought the H/W to run Linux at MS's expense and in direct opposition to MS.

How do they run Linux "at MS's expense"? Were these people otherwise going to exclusively run legit XBox games, but they discovered Linux and totally quit buying games? Do these people constitute a significant number? Are MS alone in having their "protection" cracked? And what's any of this got to do with the totally different AmigaOS situation?

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I believe MS has learned from this and that is the reason they are using the PPC in the X-BOX 360. Better protection on the M/B and better "lock in" due to the obscurity of the PPC.

I'll restrain myself, and just say that I think you might want to review the reasoning that led you to such an odd conclusion. ;)


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If Amiga wishes to enter the desktop market in the FUTURE it must have protection in the form of H/W "lock in", and as Apple has just stepped out of the PPC arena, this could be an uncontested market segment.

Your XBox example confused me. When you talk about "lock-in", you're really referring to the chosen CPU?

Apple will leave PPC because they and what they think is a sufficiently large part of their market believe that PPC is and will no longer be attractive and competitive, they see a better future elsewhere. I think your "uncontested" might be a euphemism for "unattractive and abandoned by the major player".

See T_Bone's pedagogic examples with food/refrigerators and petrol/cars.
We are here because we're interested in a certain kind of food or petrol (AmigaOS). There used to be excellent fridges+cars (Amigas) to go with our food+petrol, but that's irrelevant and not the case today.
We, and the food+petrol makers (Hyperion/AInc), don't have, control or make any refrigerators or cars (hardware).
The best thing for us and our food+petrol and its producers is if we're compatible with the most common, best, and cheapest refrigerators and cars.
If we choose only the worst, least popular and most expensive fridges+cars, and on top of that decide that people may only buy "special" such fridges+cars from "special" dealers, then people won't buy this food+petrol, and our food will rot and we could just as well use our petrol for Zippo lighters.

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To those who run duel or triple boot systems, this might be good and fun for you and I, but to the companies providing OS's this is bad business and dilutes profits unless they are the company providing ALL of those Os's.

This doesn't make sense to me. A sold copy of AmigaOS is a sold copy. Whatever people do with their hardware is irrelevant. I'm not sure what you mean by "diluting profits" here?

Are you perhaps hinting at the old "running on PPC will protect us from competition" myth? If people will choose to buy another OS than AmigaOS, then they sure as heck won't be any MORE attracted by AmigaOS if the hardware they would have to buy is uncompetitive and expensive.

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Firstly Hyperion's AmigaOS4.0 needs to make some money in OTHER markets before the desktop, then when they deem it safe and viable, enter the desktop market with a platform that provides "lock in" and protection.

What other market than the enthusiast's desktop do you think AmigaOS is suitable for? (If you say "embedded" I'll scream! ;))

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Logically to be viable in ANY market the price must be {reasonably} competitive and performance adequate, but preferably market leading.

Hear, hear!
No matter how much WE love it, AmigaOS is not market leading by any stretch of the imagination, and it's probably not going to make lots of people quit using Windows/Linux/MacOS...
But I don't think that's a reason to choose unattractive hardware. We can HAVE a choice (in contrast to e.g. MacOS users), and we should get to use that advantage and not have any possibility to choose DELIBERATELY REMOVED.

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Ignoring the "lock in" issue, if x86 was used, price might match the competition, but performance will NEVER have the POSSIBILITY of besting the competition. (Apple will have to hire a new PR team)

Eh?

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So don't even think of selling your AmigaOne DEV. systems. There is work to do NOW and in the FUTURE.

There's no reason to rush out and sell neither your "AmigaOne" dev nor production systems. AmigaOS wouldn't magically stop running on or stop being supported for what people already own, even if the OS were also ported to a new CPU platform, and/or allowed to be sold without hardware licensing/bundling/dongling.

_________________
Oh, bother.

@Maczilla

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Maczilla wrote: @T_Bone An obvious (and often suggested/shot down, etc.) solution for the very near term would be to try and get OS 4 running on Mac PPC hardware as quickly as humanly possible. I bet that Mac PPC HW is going to become more affordable and much easier to come by in the near term.

Agreed. And any one single PPC Mac model will most likely still be sold new and then available 2nd hand in numbers that are a thousand times larger than the total number of sold "AmigaOnes" so far!

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The tougher question to ponder would be will backward engineering Mac hardware be more onerous than porting OS 4 to some equally specific and unvaried X86 platform?

No.
What's needed is not really a complete port as such, like in the PPC -> x86 case. It's new drivers for AmigaOS that would be needed, along with an adaptation to Open Firmware (unless someone would decide that we need some more obscure firmware again...).

The hardware doesn't need any backward engineering, that's already done by others to create FOSS drivers and document them (to cover what Apple won't already share themselves).

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I think it would be a mistake to try and create an x86 specific OS 4 that does not have a very specific and narrow HW target (it seems like there is to much HW variation in the X86 world for very small developers to cope with).

Of course one would at least begin with choosing a a well-defined and "small" target (not "small" in absolute numbers of mobos and mobo brands of course, but a relatively "small" number of supported components/devices).

(Unless we're planning on f-cking everything up on x86 as well, by keeping the compulsory hardware licensing/bundling/dongling scheme...)

I recently posted regarding this topic on ANN.lu. Some ideas about hardware that's "officially supported" (i.e. someone's bought a license) combined with "the chips are on the hardware compatibility list but you're on your own", which would be possible if the compulsory nature of the hw licensing scheme was abandoned. Then it would also be possible (i.e. make sense) for 3rd parties to write drivers on their own.
Of course this goes for both PPC and x86, or whatever.

_________________
Oh, bother.

@wegster

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The 'desktop PC' today has effectively become a general purpose workhorse, rather than master of (m)any, while the Cell is more specialized in it's PPE/SPE design, but that does not mean it has no value.

"Designed for MS Windows Vista" PC gains specialized SIMD/MIMDs through GpGPU. SSE3’s software vertex instructions functions are implemented in pure DX9 GPUs (in multiple pipelines).

SSE3 may points to the future direction in regards to Intel/AMD’s co-processor array plans. The options for X86 world is a combination “fat” multi-processors and “light” co-processor arrays or pure "fat" multi-processors. On silicon, K8’s SSE1 and SSE2 units are already group together with a front side bus.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@minator
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Yes you can, you can run whatever you like.

If that was the case, one wouldn’t need PPE as the control chip.

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It wont like some sorts of algorithm but there are several ways you can solve that, not least using a different one.

The initial implementation of double-precision Linpack was a scalar version. When run on the SPEsim(SPU simulator**) with a matrix size of 1024x1024, using partitioned blocks of 64x64, it achieved 0.27GFLOPS on a 3.2GHz SPE. Majority of open source software is similar to this type of code.

**Not actual hardware. This is not like the cloth simulation test between PIV vs CELL BE.

ScienceMark 2.0: BLAS's matrix multiplication floating point test is similar to Linpack.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Maczilla

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@Hammer Well, I think we only had stuff like VCD and Mpeg-1 in the last days of Commodore. NTSC DVDs were still on the drawing board, if I'm not badly mistaken. HD disc based content was not really on the radar with regard to computers in 1994 -

The claim was that today’s PCs took 500X times over the Amiga Classic to reach same functionally as the classic Amiga.

My responds is give examples of what the Amiga Classic can’t do.

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it was practically sci-fi for most. Didn't Bill Gates once say something about knowone ever needing more than 640k?

Recently, Bill Gates himself refuted the 640K claim.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@T_Bone

sorry for replying everytime to you, please don't take it personal.

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Yup, Discussion about how to solve the lack of hardware problem is certainly an unpopular topic among PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE THEIR HARDWARE!

do you really think, hence Hyperion will decide....last week to port OS4 to x86, the lack of HW will vanish in the next 4-5 months?

I mean, more or less the same time for (maybe )getting the announced PPC HW..

@Amigo1

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do you really think, hence Hyperion will decide....last week to port OS4 to x86, the lack of HW will vanish in the next 4-5 months?

No, but when the x86 version is finished, a lack of hardware will be a problem of the past.

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I mean, more or less the same time for (maybe )getting the announced PPC HW..

That might be true, but how do you even know they will be released? Or how many can they afford to produce? What will happen in a year? Will we have the same problem again? Hard to tell, but IMO not unlikely.

Vidar

@tomazkid

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We're geeks, and like geeky thingies? Well, my reason for getting this expensive thingie called AmigaOne, was due to getting tired of constantly needing to rebuild my A1200, everytime I wanted to add some new hardware.

Well, I made exactly the same move 2 years ago. What can I say todays*? I am tired, I have enough! I just feel cheated. Even Linux never worked OK on these f&$! boards! And have enough of Hyperion jokes too.
I am just seriously thinking to sell the AOne and go back to my A1200 tower soon (USB2, a working TV board, scanner etc... a working floppy drive too! Get it?), and in a short time (some months) buy some kind of laptop and play with linux, UAE, Zeta, AROS and so on.

Ciao
Luca

*And I don't mean just today, 15 January!

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Ciao
Luca

@VidarL

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No, but when the x86 version is finished, a lack of hardware will be a problem of the past.

May be and only may be the lack of hardware will be solved but then wil be another problem even worse: the lack of apps.Because an x86 AOS wil probably not run any classic or PPC apps

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Amigo1

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sorry for replying everytime to you, please don't take it personal.

I don't take anything personally unles it's "Get off of AW.net foo! gut you like a fish!!11!"

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do you really think, hence Hyperion will decide....last week to port OS4 to x86, the lack of HW will vanish in the next 4-5 months?

Of course not, you'll still need to find someone interested in pressing CD's. But that's not such a pressing problem, well, I mean it IS a pressing problem, but... oh hell...

As long as nothing AmigaIncish is done like, port to x86 but then restrict it to boards mass produced in the tens of dozens...

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I mean, more or less the same time for (maybe )getting the announced PPC HW..

Which is a good solution, but doesn't even bring us back to the Eyetech days in terms of performance, and doesn't permanently solve the problem like an x86 port could.

4 edits, quote tags

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

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Hyperion is not going to change their mind so what's to worry about. Just enjoy the disucssion.

That's the whole point. Throughout Amiga history, every people that were driving the Amiga weren't ready to change their mind. Even if that could save the Amiga. They would stick to their idea.

Seems like the same thing is happening again...

Leo.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @VidarL Quote: No, but when the x86 version is finished, a lack of hardware will be a problem of the past. May be and only may be the lack of hardware will be solved but then wil be another problem even worse: the lack of apps.Because an x86 AOS wil probably not run any classic or PPC apps

Why not? it's been done before.

It would be easier to write apps that run on both AmigaOS x86/PPC, than the current trend of AmigaOS and MorphOS, two completely different operating systems.

As for classic apps, they are already emulated in OS4, there's no change.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

Quote:

May be and only may be the lack of hardware will be solved but then wil be another problem even worse: the lack of apps.Because an x86 AOS wil probably not run any classic or PPC apps

Long-term planning does extend as far as porting the whole OS (including 680x0 emulation)

This doesn't have to happen tomorrow. Before it stands up to comparisons with Zeta and others it needs a decent browser. But, let's face it, that's a major problem anyway.

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VidarL wrote: No, but when the x86 version is finished, a lack of hardware will be a problem of the past.

Yes, we need faster and better hardware time after time after time!

There were some unnecessary and unkind remarks about Eyetech because they failed to make a go of it. I can't point to examples, but they're the ones who will stab Troika in the back if it doesn't work out. They're the ones who will claim to be the "good guys" for villifying x86.

And so the circle goes. Just as users try to squeeze more power out of an A1200 because the AmigaOS was tied to custom hardware, so we tie ourselves to more custom hardware. And not even better custom hardware, but worse.

Chris

@T_Bone

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As for classic apps, they are already emulated in OS4, there's no change

Are emulated but can use native libs if avaliable the same is not possible in a x86 pot due to endianess problems that is why AROS not have 68k emu built-in and you have to use UAE

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

There's been a whole bunch of OSes for X86, some more mature than AmigaOS, and there's comercial applications for Linux-X86. Guess what, none of these has made it, everybody just pirate it. Different hardware has a sould of it's own. If this doesn't make sense to you think of marketing and how a different higher price can targe a different audience and raise sells sometimes (at least in value). There also that stuff about some peple not liking the wintel domination and prefering diferent hardware. Ok there's AMD I guess, but this would be for the more radical ones:)
Heck, there is a market for Classic Amiga, just look at eBay, the prices are getting stupid, why can't there be one for PPC based AmigaOS compatible hardware. And I can't see all those peole that spend tons of cash on eBay on Classic Amiga hardware spend the same in an X86 Amiga. Is there a big amount of AmigaForever buyers ? Most just pirate roms.

I'm just mentioning facts not trying to follow some logic, because market don't follow logic. Or maybe there is some logic to it. Many people still have fond memories of the Amiga and take it as "their team" or something...

One more thing: PS4, Revolution, XB360, wich processor do they use ? Right PPC is dead

Pah....

Why am I losing time with this anyway....

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_________________

José

@Seehund

How many times are people gonna have to repeat it to you before you get it? The AmigaOS4 licensing scheme has absolutely nothing to do with what hardware the AmigaOS4 is compatible with today as well as tomorrow. The licensing scheme isn't somehow taking away compatibility that would have been there without the licensing scheme. What matters to the decission of which hardware the AmigaOS4 should be made compatible with is:

1. Whom are our targetted consumer segment? We can easily conclude the sad fact that there are absolutely no sales argument for AmigaOS4 in comparison to mainstream operating systems. The only ones interested are we Amiga enthusiasts where the targeted consumer segment are those of us who are actually prepared to pay for new products.

2. Can the hardware in question be distributed and/or bundled with AmigaOS4 via the "usual" distribution channels to Amiga hardware dealers world wide or does the consumer have to purchase the OS and hardware seperately, effectivly killing the business for all Amiga hardware dealers in the world and all opportunities to ever compete with the OS that does come bundled and preinstalled with the hardware in question and the other OS' that is available for it for free? The amount of people willing to give an alternative to the OS they already got with their hardware purchase a try is not many, even less is willing to pay another $100 for it.

3. To what extent may it be expected to get support from the hardware manufacturer? How much research has to be carried out by Hyperion's own resources before they will be able to start development? How much is support from the hardware manufacturer worth in comparison to the amount of possible sales opportunities that the hardware platform represents?

This is just but a few examples of the things that they need to take into consideration before making AmigaOS the next BeOS. It's quite a business decission to make and it is noone's resposibility to make the "right" decission but Hyperion and Amiga Inc.'s. Respect that and quit whining about the licensing scheme for a change. You've been doing it for like, what is it, four or five years now? Change the record, please.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

Respect that and quit whining about the licensing scheme for a change. You've been doing it for like, what is it, four or five years now? Change the record, please.

Yes, and he still has a point.

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How many times are people gonna have to repeat it to you before you get it? The AmigaOS4 licensing scheme has absolutely nothing to do with what hardware the AmigaOS4 is compatible with today as well as tomorrow. The licensing scheme isn't somehow taking away compatibility that would have been there without the licensing scheme.

Keep repeating that and people might start believing it at some point...
Tell that to AHT, their product won't use OS4 because Amiga Inc. refused to licence OS4 to them.
Tell that to Acill, to whom Amiga Inc. even refused to reply directly, when he wanted to fund a Pegasos 2 port of OS4 privately.
I also hope that you don't believe the "the licence ensures quality control for Amiga licenced products" anymore..

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@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @T_Bone Quote: As for classic apps, they are already emulated in OS4, there's no change Are emulated but can use native libs if avaliable the same is not possible in a x86 pot due to endianess problems that is why AROS not have 68k emu built-in and you have to use UAE

Take a look at this Moobunny thread where Bernd Meyer outlines possible solutions:

http://flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/125942.shtml

Vidar

@Fransexy

Do you know all this for sure, or is it opinion and speculation?