@Rob

are you a 100% sure? mr.I.am.always.right

maybe RichardR and his crew will show up and show their board. It seems it could runt os4 out of the box so..

@mr.calibra

100% sure about what?

@bbrv

Quote:

Is there anything else?! When we are sure there is nothing else we will start posting answers there - except for the really juicy stuff and we will save that for Total Amiga...

OK, here is one:

MorphOS and OS4 are very similar OS's, with a common history, very similar current situation, and facing the same future challanges. Both MorphOS and OS4 are closed source OS's with commercial ambitions. For Amiga-kind of OS's, what commercial future do you see? What possible commercial opportunities could there be for them to dig into, and what would the obstacles be (financial will be one of course) ...?

... and here is another:

How many interested people do you need in order to make a production run of the 7447A upgrade Pegasos card?

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

How many interested people do you need in order to make a production run of the 7447A upgrade Pegasos card?

Every MorphOS user out there?

Seriously though.. I remember reading this in a blog of his or on MorphZone. Maybe it was
Neko who said it.. Anyway, it was 200 or something to keep the price from being rediculously
high he said.
Can be remembering wrongly of course. If so I appologise

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@Samwel

Wasn't that on a speculative thread about a 7448 upgrade? Ah well, 200 could be right. But I don't think they are looking for any profits on this, judging by the wordings of the message, they mostly wants to cover the cost and do this as a favour to all Pegasos owners, so the volume might be lower.

BTW, I am pretty certain that they have made a lot smaller production runs than 200 in the past ...

@ikir

Quote:

ikir wrote: @dolen No thanks. The hardware is coming without Genesi.

I think not. Actually, I'm pretty darned convinced. I haven't seen *one single sign* suggesting there are hardware coming for OS4, not the slightest piece of evidense, not even a simple photo of an early prototype.

Before you reply on the above - Do you want to bet on this? Some 50 Euros or so, just for fun? You could perhaps look at it as a chance of a possible coupon-refund!



Are you aware of how many promising HW projects there has been during the last 10 years, projects with much better backing and much better pre-requisites?

It's not just designing the hardware. That's probably the easy part. Then it's about building it (sourcing RoHS components in masses, with all up-front payment by (*a lot of*) money you won't have returned for *several months* later, if *ever*). Then it's about marketing it, providing customer care and support, honoring warranty. Building an industry. Because if it won't reach some kind of industrial level (even micro-scale), or at least a plausible *possibility* of industrial sustainability, than there is no point. No sustainability, no rev2, rev3, etc, no future path, and no safe supply of spare parts and warranties. Building a real, sustainable business based on the hardware, with paths ahead (business/platform wise) to ensure potential customers that may invest in your thing that it won't be another dead-end like the Eyetech fiasco.

The logistical- financial- marketing- and management-challanges with taking the step beyond the design table is what stopped most promising projects, even more or less completed designs, and many of those were from experienced people with a real businesses already up and running, and not from some "Troika clowns" or some hobby dude in a cellar somewhere. I have absolutely *zero* faith in the abilities of Troika and ACK to actually push through with the above mentioned examples of obstacles in practice.

And at the end of the day, even if they manage with all that, there still remains the biggest obstacles of them all - the Amiga Inc and the OS4 licensing crap. Dang!

But again - suggest a date for a deadline, and a sum you want to put up, and maybe we will have us a nice bet here! Prove me wrong and take my money at the same time!

@Rob

about the efika beeing the mystery device..

@takemehomegrandma

hello grandma..

you are writing long and intresting posts here.. are you also a blue troll?

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: Before you reply on the above - Do you want to bet on this? Some 50 Euros or so, just for fun? You could perhaps look at it as a chance of a possible coupon-refund!

You may regret this

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@sgm

is that a threat?

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

The logistical- financial- marketing- and management-challanges with taking the step beyond the design table is what stopped most promising projects, even more or less completed designs

Heck, even Genesi has examples of that, like the 750GX CPU card (and the 7448 card for that matter). Probably a lot more than that as well. Working designs in a lab that never got released to market because *it didn't make enough sense* to push it through the putting-to-market process. Working things that never got through the release-process.

Designing the Efika seems to have been a challange, but the design obviously works now. But still, here we are, the Efika is delayed several months, and we are still waiting for all pieces of the puzzle to fall into place. Another example of post-design challanges.

The development of the "Pegasos III"/OSW is ongoing, the 945 controller and the Broadcom HT-1000 and HT-2000 are at b-plan, and sampling is imminent. But when the design challanges are overcome, then this motherboard will probably be the most challanging product ever that Genesi has brought to market, with huge up-front costs, and a great risc. It will probably need one or several huge customers in place before one single production-class board is manufactured.

This is maybe possible with Genesi's track record in the industry, but how easy would it be for Adam of ACK? "Well, eh, Hi Mr. President of this big company, I am a HW dude that works on a HW project in my basement on a hobby basis, could you please help me out by buying a thousand units of my special home-brew design? The point with them? Well to run OS4, the best OS in the world me thinks, and who knows, maybe you will actually be able to do so (if Amiga Inc agrees on it (which they never have done before) and you pay them a lot of money). Photoshop you say? No, unfortunately not. Microsoft Office? Nope. Internet browser, 3D and modern multimedia support? Not quite. Server usage? No, sorry. What it *can* do? Well, it has draggable screens! Oh please sir, you would help us out a lot here, there are at least a few hundred people over at AmigaWorld.net that wants something to run OS4 on, and it will only cost you a million or so up front. It makes perfect sense, doesn't it?"

Designing things are one thing, making an industry out of it is another.

And heck, I haven't even seen a single piece of evidence that there is any actual designing going on either ...

@mr.calibra

Quote:

mr.calibra wrote: @takemehomegrandma hello grandma.. you are writing long and intresting posts here.. are you also a blue troll?

Rather someone trying to pour a spoon of realism into this big kettle of delirium ...

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

And heck, I haven't even seen a single piece of evidence that there is any actual designing going on either ...

Yep. It is very telling that the only "evidence" we have seen were images of some weird 3rd party hardware that will "soon be licensed for OS4" like the Beijing UD Tech board.
We haven't even seen some evidence from projects like Powervixxen LT which already have been in development for nearly two years now.

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@mr.calibra

No, quite the contrary. I know someone would raise the bet to 10,000 euros. Right, afxgroup?

_________________
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@takemehomegrandma
So to summarise you lengthy posts: Rather than wait in vain, I might as well shoot myself now?

P.S. I agree that OS4 on a Peg or Efika is a better bet than a board designed in a garage, but The Powers That Be have said that It Will Not Be So, and other very definite things that use too many capital letters.

Last edited by ChrisH on 29-Aug-2006 at 09:11 PM.

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Rather someone trying to pour a spoon of realism into this big kettle of delirium ...

Personally, I think your the Anti-Fleecy. Just as prophetic, but blue instead of red.

Last edited by Legion on 29-Aug-2006 at 09:29 PM.

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@ChrisH

Excuse me, but these 'Powers That Be' knows sh!t!

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Designing things are one thing, making an industry out of it is another.

That's why the only sane way to make an Amiga computer is to NOT make an Amiga computer. Only then can you be successful in making a new Amiga.

What OS do the "real" PPC markets run? Make your hardware for that. What form factors do those industries use? Make it in that form factor, or very easily adaptable to that form factor. (There's probably a few standards out there) If possible, make it relatively easy to adapt to a form factor acceptable to AmigaOS users, get OS4 ported for that tiny market, and then there's a chance of success. Do not market the thing as an AmigaOS platform to anyone that isn't asking for OS4 hardware.

It probably adds complexity and cost for the OS4 userbase. As long as it's not a significant increase in cost, the mere availability of something should make a small percentage increase in cost compared to a less complex system but with the same features built in the same quantities acceptable. Simply because the less complex system may not be suitable in the "real" PPC markets, and thus render it not worth building at all.

Surely bplan and genesi are not goofy enough to market Efika as a platform for everyone to run MorphOS on. It's a small, low-power Linux thing. Same for 4u2. Small and low power and Linux can be marketed to "real" customers. If it can also run MorphOS, then the MorphOS fans benefit. If OS4 ran on them, then OS4 fans could also benefit, even though neither board was primarily intended to be either a MorphOS or an OS4 platform. Same situation for any other designer's product, which as a side benefit known only to us few that it can also run OS4 in addition to whatever it's sold with to "real" markets.

If anyone is designing their gizmo for the purpose of running OS4, and they do not plan to sell it with any other "real-market" OS, then I think they're nuts. That's an awful lot of expense for our tiny market. Don't try to make an industry for the product. Make a product for the industry.

My advise is to stop thinking about designing a new "Amiga", and start thinking about designing "something which is capable of running AmigaOS". For all we know, that's exactly what these guys are doing.

Last edited by billt on 29-Aug-2006 at 09:44 PM.

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@billt

But isn't that what the point of the AmigaOne/ODW was? They were meant for linux and the low-power market. AmigaOS/MorphOS were just piggybacked onto them..

Last edited by Legion on 29-Aug-2006 at 10:11 PM.

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...wait... what?