@takemehomegrandma

Again you got me a bit wrong, Anyway, we are quite close together, reread my post #83.

In a nutshell: The more options the more sales - qestion is whether the efforts to realise these more options remunerate in the total calculation.
That's always the key question doing business.

For the OS4 on Efika case *I* seriuosly doubt that, but I can misguess that totally (maybe there is some more in the pipeline I do not know).

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@redrumloa

Quote:

Oh yeah?

Please feel free to point out where on an internal roadmap document it shows (a contract for) "Amiga DE" ported to PPC for Thendic.

@Benji

Please show me some AVAILABLE, NEW and REASONABLY PRICED hardware suitable for running OS4 other than the Efika.

This finger-pointing witch-hunt is not amusing. We need to be moving forward and not squabbling aout the past. The solution is right infront of us and yet there are people here still determined to keep OS4 locked in development hell.

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@Darrin

Precisely...

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@Darrin

Quote:

Darrin wrote: @takemehomegrandma ... I can certainly imagine someone reading the orginal post and getting rather too excited, adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 6 and placing an order with Amikit for a Efika and expecting an OS4 CD to follow before Xmas. I mean, I have a $50 coupon from Amiga Inc and a club membership and T-shirt to prove it!

What???
You got the coupon???
How did you manage that?
When did you get it?

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@pixie

I think it's fair to say that judging by the comments and limited negative feedback on this thread that the vast majority of OS4 users and potential users would welcome a licensing option that incorporates the Efika board. That has to be a good sign.

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@Dandy

Quote:

What??? You got the coupon??? How did you manage that? When did you get it?

Slight exageration on my part - it's still a "virtual coupon".

I do have the T-shirt (from Gary), but I haven't worn it.

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@L8-X

Quote:

L8-X wrote: ...and dandy...

Who's calling?

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@acefnq

I think you take things too seriously. This is only a forum. We are all
here by our free will, nobody want divide anything, quite the opposite
really. I'm no lover of either AInc or BBRV but I wouldn't care less
who delivers the hardware if it's not too expensive and it works.

Those that discussed this a million times before can just
not read this thread, it's that easy.

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

IMHO, the strengths of the Amiga is its leanness; that it can run *fine* on Efika-style hardware (or even lower specced HW). IMHO, this is where Amiga can find its future.

I'm sure OS4 and MORPHOS will run fine on this hardware in fact I might buy one when MORPHOS is available. This is not my ideal hardware though. I'm sure it would be great in an embedded system but for desktop use it's a little lacking. It's going to rely on USB ports for CDROM, Mouse and keyboard yet it only has 2. What this means is that this tiny little box is going to have an octopus of cables hanging from it.

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@Darrin
Quote:

I think it's fair to say that judging by the comments and limited negative feedback on this thread that the vast majority of OS4 users and potential users would welcome a licensing option that incorporates the Efika board. That has to be a good sign.

I fully supported the idea of getting Amiga OS 4.0+ running on the Efika or any other Genesi technology. But if that is accomplished through sneaky underhanded means (i.e. leveraging an obsolete AmigaDE contract) I don't want anything to do with Genesi's products. If they had done this in private I would never have known nor cared but Genesi brought it into the public eye and I do know and I do care. Vote with your money they say. Well, my vote is now "No" Genesi.

I would have liked to see how well Amiga OS 4 could run on the Efika but with judges and lawyers involved I think that will never happen now. The Efika might have made an interesting new Amiga computer model. Pity.

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@takemehomegrandma

Well, I as an armchair lawyer don't have to guess about some things. The judge already said no to bbrv having control of OS4. This isn't armchair opinion, that's what I read from the court documents. Bbrv seemed very confindent about their OS4 plan last time around, but that didn't do them any good then either.

Yes, they do have a good case for the AmigaDE stuff. The judge decided that already. If AI failed to comply, then bbrv can take them back to court to try and get compliance on that to actually happen. That should have happened. If it didn't, then AI is in the wrong. I doubt you'll belittle my armchair opinion on that point though because it happens to agree with your opinion.

Has the lack of DE hurt sales of Pegasos? Yet another armchair opinion, but I can't imagine how it would. It's a legal stick bbrv can use to beat AI over the head with if they so choose, even if they don't plan to actualy make use of DE in anything, ever. Maybe bbrv has some useful and profitable idea for DE, but somehow I doubt that.

What I was really armchairing about is my speculation about the possibility that bbrv could completely destroy OS4. Invalidate all the agreements like a row of dominoes. Some would be willing to work with Genesi, some would not. I don't definitively know that such a fate is guaranteed should the AI/Hyperion agreement be voided. Heck, I've never seen the Hyperion/Forefront agreement to know what it says, I'm just a petty laborer for Forefront, and that only when my schedule allows. Perhaps I'm speculating too wildly, that is a possibility. But this issue isn't one I've seen mentioned, and perhaps no one has considered the falling apart possibility. Perhaps once someone with a real lawyer badge sees this theory they can comment on if it is a valid concern or a rediculous conspiracy theory... Another crazy theory is that such a result might be bbrv's true goal to rid themselves of the only "direct" commercial competitor product to MOS by getting OS4 to fall apart. But that's far more speculative than the OS4 agreement dominoes theory.

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@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @takemehomegrandma Kindly explain to me then why you believe that bbrv pokes his head in once every couple of weeks with a status report on OS4 on the Efika. I mean, why bother? it's only a few hundred motherboards, right?

This site currently has 2791 members, according to the front page counter. Say that as many as a quarter of those engage themselves to *actually buy* an Efika (a too high number IMHO). That would mean about 700 boards. What could the profit margin per unit be, at the price of $199? $120? Possibly less, but at $120, 700 boards would mean $84000, which is *not* a lot of money, especially not when you start substracting taxes, developing costs (and time), other costs, etc. They are how many people in Genesi? Gerard, Axel, Bill, Raquel, Sven? More? I don't know what they get in monthly salary (if they get anything at all), but when you start calculating the monthly costs for employees, including social wellfare costs, taxes, benefits, etc, then that kind of money is a *fart in space*. Really, it is!

Have a look at this document at page 4. Please note that this was written in April 2006, and obviously a lot of things hasn't yet developed as they hoped back then (take a look at this blog; maybe you may spot some annoyance? (BTW, yes, "Humpty Dumpty" at the bottom is IBM)), but at the bottom of that page you will see the yearly figures they would expect from an effort of developing new hardware. That would be worthwhile, and that would surely help keeping an effort like Genesi afloat. 700 sales to AW.net visitors is of course *much welcome*, but certainly *not* what they are aiming at.

And it is in this context I claim that they are not after to grab your money (so please quit this "advertising, ADVERTISING, moderators, interfere at once" bullsh!t (and that was NOT directed at you personally (nor was it directed to BobW personally either BTW)). They are here to support a community. They have been involved with Amiga since way back, at least since the days of Commodores bankruptcy. They see strengths in this community, and they want to support it, since they know that no future can come for a new platform without a community, and the Amiga community is pretty unique (as is the Amiga).

Of course, all this is *my own* interpretations. I speak for no-one here (not in this post, or in any other of my posts).

Quote:

I have a suspicion that bbrv has a definite marketing plan for his boards, which may or may not involve OS4

Oh, I'm pretty sure about that.

Quote:

and you have absolutely no clue what it is.

Very true.

However, I'm pretty certain it involves *people*; *communities*.

Quote:

Bbrv has shown himself to be a very good marketer, and he seems interested in this market, while you're just dismissing it out of hand.

Well I guess you may put it that way. Obviously their interest is genuine, otherwise they wouldn't put down all this effort and go through all this public tormention they receive as soon as they show up. They must certainly believe it will be worth it, otherwise they woudln't bother.

What I am trying to say is that they probably are considering it to be a *community* rather than a market. I mean, even if every single user on AW.net would buy an Efika, it wouldn't help Genesi's long term development in one bit. Too little money is involved. It is not why they are here. That is what I'm trying to say, but again, it's only me, and I am in no way a spoke-person for Genesi. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, so I may be completely wrong. However, feel free to discuss my arguments if you disagree.

Quote:

Excuse me if I have more trust in the guy that has sold several thousand motherboards and complete systems, than on the guy who just shoots his mouth off in fora.

Actually, I don't think we disagree after all. I think you are just misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that they are not interested, because I think it's obvious that they *are* interested in Amiga.

What I am trying to say (bottom line) is:

Customers like this is what they want, and what they are aiming for. Lots of them.

Customers like this is of course also very much welcome. But even lots of them (even several hundreds) won't make a big difference at all in their accounting books. They could not make a living from that. But "customers" like this is an *incredible asset* for the development of a future platform. A community like the Amiga community is a gathering of people interested in the well beings of their platform (not only developers), and if the conditions are right, they will contribute in any way the can. That's why BBRV does things like ...

... this, and make openings like this, ie making sure that those people are not "customers" at all, but simply helping them to get aboard! IMHO, this is community support, if anything is.

I am *not* saying that the Amiga community is worthless in any way. Rather the opposite! But it is not a *market* one can make a living from. Not now, at least. A creative community teamed up with a supportive company that provides equipment and any other kind of support, could perhaps change that?

@BobW

Indeed the Efika is not the ideal desktop hardware. But it will work as such for *some* at least!

The limitations (and the low cost/price that follows) is one of its main points. It works for some, it doesn't work for others.

@billt

Well, the only thing we can do is to wait and see. Maybe it's vapor, maybe it is not.

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote: Has the lack of DE hurt sales of Pegasos? Yet another armchair opinion, but I can't imagine how it would. It's a legal stick bbrv can use to beat AI over the head with if they so choose, even if they don't plan to actualy make use of DE in anything, ever. Maybe bbrv has some useful and profitable idea for DE, but somehow I doubt that.

Absolutely it hurt Pegasos sales! Way back when Thendic signed the contract with Amiga Inc, AmigaDE was being touted as the second coming of the Amiga platform. It was being called the Amiga OE (Operating Environment), it was said it was going to be a full stand alone native operating system. And YES the first version of DE was being talked about with the name OS4. I remember all this oh so very well. Don’t you remember the dAmiga x-86 boxes? They were not being sold under the premise to develop games for WinCE based cell phones. They were being sold as the first step for early adopters of the new AmigaOE, named OS4 in many references.

The simple fact is DE never became what they promised and the story of DE became ever changing to the point it seems most people even forgot what it was supposed to be. Why would Thendic obtain a license if they were told DE would be nothing more than 3rd rate games for WinCE cell phones?

So yes, I think Buck actually has a leg to stand on here. If Amiga Inc had delivered the AmigaOE(named OS4) they promised, Thendic/Genesi would have been selling Amiga branded computers for many years. The lack of this OE/OS4 has cost sales. How many is impossible to speculate on, but they are lost.

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@ssolie

Quote:

But if that is accomplished through sneaky underhanded means (i.e. leveraging an obsolete AmigaDE contract) I don't want anything to do with Genesi's products.

Underhanded means like saying you're going to release a product and don't?

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@Benji

Quote:

Please feel free to point out where on an internal roadmap document it shows (a contract for) "Amiga DE" ported to PPC for Thendic.

This was not an internal document. It was handed out to everyone dozens(hundreds?) of people at an Amiga show with no NDA signed. I know of at least 3 people local to me this press kit was given to.

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@redrumloa

Quote:

The simple fact is DE never became what they promised and the story of DE became ever changing to the point it seems most people even forgot what it was supposed to be.

Did Buck ever pay them any money specifically to port DE? In a normal contract if a company failed to provide software you paid to have developed they could be liable for damages and their money back sure. But if a company changed their mind can they be forced to write code for some hardware?

If said I would write some code for you and changed my mind either because I got in a fight with you or realized I'm just not smart enough or have the resources enough, can you just be given my harddrive with all my source code on it? If they did how much money do I get? I.E. If Bill Buck did get AmigaAnywhere and or Amiga DE he surely doesn't get it for free does he? How much does he have to pay?

What were the terms if Amiga Inc. just decided to drop DE? There couldn't be any realistic expectation that DE would continue on forever could there?

OSes and software like DE come and go like a turd in the wind. That is to say sometimes they don't go anywhere at all and get dumped for something else.


On a side note: I seem to remember that Amiga Inc, never recieved any hardware to port to in the first place, making it impossible anyway. Has Genesi provided them with an Efika yet and the needed documentation? Can Buck go to court again and claim that DE was never ported to Efika if they never even provided one?

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 14-Dec-2006 at 03:56 AM.

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@AmigaHeretic

Some good questions there, I really have no answers as IANAL. What I do know is Genesi got a judgment in their favor and Amiga Inc was ordered to port DE to the Pegasos. IIRC this also meant Genesi is legally allowed to use the Amiga name in promoting their product.

Genesi never pursued this after the judgment, probably due to their own internal problems. I would be curious to see how this would all play out if Genesi did decide to pursue it again. I wonder what type of damages they could get. I want to watch my words here, but Amiga Inc's corporate actions the last few years seem quite fishy. This is certainly popcorn material.

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