@Jorge

Uhm, how do you figure that coding your project from scratch is click and point programming?

You can do it however you want to. For beginners there will be kits with some source code to get them started, but experienced programmers needn't use them at all.

@Trezzer

Quote:

And actually Xbox Live Arcade titles are far beyond the quality of Vigdal's titles (not trying to belittle them because they're great shareware games - they just don't compare at all).

Have you even played Edgar's Warblade and PocMon to make such a judgement? I would be really surprised if you actually have.

@MikeB

I've played Warblade quite a bit and tried PocMon thank you very much. I still prefer playing Deluxe Galaga on my Amiga, but that's a different story.

What Vigdal does and does well is balance gameplay and add a touch of extra here and there. The games don't look spectacular and they don't have to. They're *great* shareware games. Comparing them to titles like Assault Heroes or Small Arms on the other hand is hardly fair, but it's none the less what they are up against using your comparison.

I'm glad to see Vigdal still out there. Even though I'd prefer to see his titles on OS4.

Last edited by Trezzer on 16-Jan-2007 at 04:13 PM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Uhm, how do you figure that coding your project from scratch is click and point programming?

Maybe its not. Its just this subtle message which is transported thru the MS marketing guys (and that's why I said for me XNA is just another "engine" (in extended terms)). The usual MS bs. They sell you a dev system "which does not cost you much" - unless you really need something in depth. But thats how you get a big audience into the game in the first place. If they buy the entry level project its more likely they buy the upgrade, too.

I don't want to bash on XNA here (I guess I do), I just want to point to a generic problem we have in the industry. I hired a guy recently (well, 2 years ago) because he wasn't bad in the interview. He had one year of experience. We were looking for an entry level programmer. He had a CS BA and doing his Masters which he got last summer. Based on that information you would expect something. But he couldn't program. He left a couple of weeks ago - I probably should have done more code reviews and fired the guy before (OTHO this was a more convenient way to handle things). Sorry to say so. But it is hard to find people who understand the fundamentals now a days. And by spoiling the kids even more with even better dev tools nobody cares to look below the surface any more. What a pitty.

While it is nice, that over all development costs can be lowered by even better tools, its the knowledge base below that fades away. This becomes pretty visual if something (new technology) happens outside the mainstream boundaries (such as the PS3, IMO).

Another reason is, that the constant cost pressure does not allow you to break away from the mainstream that much. It requires someone like Sony - someone with the really huge bucks - to be able to at least give it a try. And even they are on the edge of a failure (what does this tell us regarding the Amiga situation, heh ?).

Maybe thats another reason why I'm supporting the PS3 (not saying I might not support all the others, too).

_________________
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@Jorge

Quote:

I don't want to bash on XNA here (I guess I do)

You had me LOLing there

I understand where you're coming from, but there's a different side to it too. While I don't have time to pursue it right now, at least the XNA interview videos were really inspiring and I was far too close to just downloading it and getting started. The only reason I didn't do it was because I knew I had other commitments that needed (and still need) sorting first.

Seeing that you have the full power of the machine at your fingertips and good community support is alluring - especially when you're handed a full IDE for free (you don't have to pay a dime till you actually want to run the code on the 360, so if you have a Windows box you can prototype on there till you get somewhere).

XNA is not point & click programming any more than Visual Studio 6 was.
It's just a framework. You still have to hit the keyboard.

LabView - that's point & click programming and it's ugly as sin unless you like looking at code that looks like a circuit design.

@MikeB

As you know Team Ninja are currently working on a remake of Ninja Gaiden Black for PS3. This is what they have to add to the debate:

Speaking to 1UP, Team Ninja expressed their support for 720p in their current Ninja Gaiden re-make for the Playstation 3. They stated: "Well, this game is going to support 720p, and that is because we have determined that this is optimal resolution to get the best quality images out of the PS3." Team Ninja also warned other developers about going 1080p, declaring that the best balance in performance and image quality remains with 720p.

and

"There are companies out there that are developing games at 1080p, and the problem is that they're really pushing the limits of the hardware at that resolution, and I think that if you examine it objectively you will see that in order to get the best balance of performance and image quality then 720p is your only choice. I think that the companies that are making a big deal out of making games at 1080p are either underestimating their ability to get their games to run well at that resolution, or they're basically just using that as an advertising gimmick."

Link to full article.

@Trezzer

I have read this before. But please understand that they are multi-platform game designers. If they want to port their game over to the XBox 360 at some point, they would run into problems if they tapped too much into the PS3's true potential and changed their engine too much to suit the PS3, or for instance to make the game too big and fill up a Blu-Ray disk (vs mulitple DVDs), etc, etc.

They want to ensure the consumer on that they are making the right design decisions and will create the most impressive games out there. On the other hand developers creating 1080p games will claim the opposite.

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2007 at 08:20 PM.

@MikeB

Understand that Team Ninja are known for pushing the platforms they develop on to the max and have a good grasp of what you can and cannot do with given hardware. I don't expect them to change direction now. Team Ninja was created as a group of the most talented people at Tecmo - code ninjas. Do a bit of research and you'll see what I mean. Even the craptastic Dead or Alive Xtreme 4 looks amazing even if it's a completely ridiculous game.

Besides I'm guessing we'll see a far more impressive game when the next Ninja Gaiden comes to 360.

Last edited by Trezzer on 16-Jan-2007 at 07:41 PM.

@Trezzer

I think both PS3 and XBox 360 versions would be good. Neither version will likely max out the system. IMO only those developers who develop exclusively with the PS3 in mind, without having to worry about porting to other platforms will get the most out of the PS3. That means especially first and second party developers. I a 3rd party developer like EA will never max out the PS3 or even come close, if they also want to port this game over to the XBox 360. At most they will make a couple of enhancements:

Full Auto 2:

IGN: “Improves on its predecessor in almost every way imaginable. The destructible environments work well and actually change the flow of every race and the battle arenas add variety. What’s more, the game runs smoother and looks better than its older [Xbox 360] sibling.”

This game is based on the XBox 360 version with added improvements. But depite not being build from scratch for the PS3 it should be noted the game runs in 1080p.

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2007 at 08:05 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2007 at 07:59 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2007 at 07:57 PM.

@MikeB

Yeah, Full Auto was disappointing on the 360 from a technical point of view as I've said earlier. It was a real launch title with all the negative connotations that go with that - and unfortunately it still has some issues on PS3 as I'm sure you are aware of from reading reviews. It's still a fun game, but it should have run much better. It's sad that they chose to go with 1080p instead of getting a better frame rate in 720p (since there are still frame rate issues on PS3). I've read promising previews of the PSP version though, although I can't really imagine controlling it with that rather horrid analogue stick (Full Auto is pretty intense).

Oh, and can we stop with the kindergarten bold usage, please? It only disturbs the reading and quite frankly it's patronising.

And it's quite obvious that a game that's optimized exclusively for 360 will look better than one that has to be ported to PS3 and vice versa due to their slightly different power balancing.

@MikeB

Quote:

Full Auto 2: IGN: “Improves on its predecessor in almost every way imaginable. The destructible environments work well and actually change the flow of every race and the battle arenas add variety. What’s more, the game runs smoother and looks better than its older [Xbox 360] sibling.”

Definitely a good thing. The Demo was much smoother then the game. Looks like cutting teeth on a multithreaded system likely helped them improve the game the 2nd time around. As for the 1080p question, from what I recollect 1080p native was not enabled on the 360 at time of development, so I wouldn't have expected them to use it.

Three PS3 screenshots of probably the XBox 360's best overall game:
http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=39938&mode=thread&order=0

I guess they are identical or not?

I believe the game fills up the DVD, if this would have been a PS3 exclusive they may have made the game bigger on Blue-Ray and push the hardware a bit further, now they only spend their time and efforts on making the game identical and work around technical differences between the two platforms.

@BrianK

Quote:

As for the 1080p question, from what I recollect 1080p native was not enabled on the 360 at time of development, so I wouldn't have expected them to use it.

I don't expect the more impressive and demanding XBox 360 games to use 1080p, at least not coming from Microsoft or the companies they bought, as they claimed this wouldn't be possible.

@Trezzer

IMO Kameo has some of the most pleasing visuals I have seen thus far on the XBox 360.

One thing I like a lot about Resistance is that bodies don't dissappear, thus after a while bodies pile up like this:

http://static.flickr.com/110/305471694_6a51c9b6f7_b.jpg
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8336/untitled32qr2.jpg


More cool Resistance pictures:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/305472267_1193b64306_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/107/300835470_0ae1e18407_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/118/305463679_3ebac6d3d3_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/104/305826941_94da53f5c7_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/114/305824425_4638a4da2b_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/108/305472924_85f2d474dc_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/121/300759869_3ffff8ded3_b.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/5886/dsc01797fb7.jpg
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3034/untitled29dk6.jpg

I have played the XBox 360 demo of Final Night Round 3, but IMO the first person perspective on the PS3 seems a lot more interesting:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5352/untitled33iy3.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1921/untitled34wg4.jpg

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Jan-2007 at 09:03 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2007 at 09:59 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I don't expect the more impressive and demanding XBox 360 games to use 1080p, at least not coming from Microsoft or the companies they bought, as they claimed this wouldn't be possible.

One idiot said 1080p wasn't possible - the rest of the company has said the same thing the whole time: The sweet spot is 720p. Just like on PS3.

@MikeB

Quote:

MO Kameo has some of the most pleasing visuals I have seen thus far on the XBox 360.

Kameo was a decent first generation title. Technically it's nowhere near the visual quality of Gears or Viva Piñata, but for a first gen title it's not bad.

As for Fight Night R3: Sure it's a cool addition. But what I like about the game is that it's a lot like watching a boxing match on tv - except you're controlling it. It's a question of what you prefer of course and boxing games have tried both approaches. I just think the "tv view" works best and has historically delivered the best boxing games.

P.S. : We've seen Resistance. And all the other games.

@MikeB

Quote:

Three PS3 screenshots of probably the XBox 360's best overall game

A question of taste. I tried it on PC and didn't bother to get it for 360 - at least not till it hits the bargain bins and has had an update. They tend to produce pretty bug-ware.

Quote:

I guess they are identical or not?

Yup. They look about the same. It's not really surprising.

Quote:

I believe the game fills up the DVD

I'm guessing it might be, since they used procedural tech for the trees. If they had used it for more I guess they might have been able to cram it on a cd

@Trezzer

Quote:

Yeah, Full Auto was disappointing on the 360 from a technical point of view as I've said earlier. It was a real launch title with all the negative connotations that go with that - and unfortunately it still has some issues on PS3 as I'm sure you are aware of from reading reviews. It's still a fun game, but it should have run much better. It's sad that they chose to go with 1080p instead of getting a better frame rate in 720p (since there are still frame rate issues on PS3). I've read promising previews of the PSP version though, although I can't really imagine controlling it with that rather horrid analogue stick (Full Auto is pretty intense).

OK, Full Auto on the 360 was a launch title (IMO one of the worst). But why isn't Full Auto 2 for the PS3 ? Well, yes sure, it uses the code base from the former version and the guys might have had a better understanding how parallel programming worked when they did the PS3 version. But you have to totally start over if you want to balance load on the SPEs compared to the xeon (I would guess, at least for such an early title).

But what makes people so sure there won't be any progress between Full Auto 2 and whatever comes for Christmas 2007 like what everybody can see between the original Full Auto and todays Gears of War ?

If the PS3 just evolves the 30% to 50% of what the 360 did over the last year, I'd say we can expect a little bit more then what we see right now. PS3 "Launch" titles are compared to 360s current generation games ATM. And that's alright. MS won the first match by being able to deliver earlier.

That kind of competition is a good one. It will keep pushing the 360 to its limits and help maxing out the PS3 (no matter if first party or not. Usually Studios have different teams for 360 and PS3 versions. I am pretty sure they feel the urge for some internal competition).

Last edited by Jorge on 16-Jan-2007 at 11:09 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne XE G3/933/VIA/FM801/R200 (fixed),
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µA1-MK2/G3/933/R200/CMI8738
XE/G4 (broken 7450/800)

@Jorge

Quote:

OK, Full Auto on the 360 was a launch title (IMO one of the worst). But why isn't Full Auto 2 for the PS3 ?

I'm not saying it wasn't. Was merely making a point that it wasn't indicative of 360 performance in general - and as such it probably should be taken to be indicative of PS3 either.

Quote:

But what makes people so sure there won't be any progress between Full Auto 2 and whatever comes for Christmas 2007

No-one's claiming that. I think everyone here is perfectly aware that PS3 games will continue to improve just like 360 and Wii games.

I'm guessing Full Auto 2 is a good enough game - like I said earlier I've enjoyed the first one in spite of its shortcomings. If the second one is better, then that's just fine. I just don't understand why they didn't opt for a solid frame rate rather than to bump the resolution.