@Jorge


Quote:

...While it is nice, that over all development costs can be lowered by even better tools, its the knowledge base below that fades away.

From a business perspective the use of abstract, easier tools makes a lot of sense since they reduce development tools and costs. I've developed in C, C++, Java and Perl. Perl is the slowest* language but it is massively more productive.

*While Perl may be slow the main processing routines are all written in C so actually it's not that slow for some things.

It does however mean you'll also never get full performance out of the machine, you'll find the top level developers will be going into C or even assembly in order to get the best performance.

One possibility I like is a mixture of both approaches - Someone is working on a version of Python exactly like this for Cell - it includes SPE intrinsics in order to get he best speed while the rest is quick easy scripting development.
When I wrote audio apps the most time consuming work was the GUI stuff, I'd quite happily do that in a scripting language. It's the audio routines need real speed though and this would let me do that.

Quote:

I don't want to bash on XNA here (I guess I do)

Good comment

Don't laugh too much though, Sony is working on something similar - I don't know what as they're not talking about it much but there will be something. Homebrew content is said to be a big part of their strategy.

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Whyzzat?

Quote:

Yup. They look about the same. It's not really surprising.

I'm not sure they're PS3 shots, as the middle one is pixel-for-pixel identical to this old 360 screenshot:

http://uk.media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_3457444.html

Regarding the PS3 version:

"The PS3 is benefiting from us continuing to develop our core technology that drives all our Elder Scrolls games. Some of that is noticeable on the screen -- like all the new graphic shaders -- and some isn't. The best examples are those new shaders we have for how "near detail" and "far detail" blend together on the landscape. You no longer have a harsh line cutting across the two levels, they blend together seamlessly and the distant detail and land looks much nicer."

The harsh line is quite noticeable at times, so it's a big step forward. Taken from this interview:

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/738/738319p1.html

As I'm here , I'll say I've noticed the quality of XBox Live Arcade has improved a lot recently. There was a quiet spell followed by a run of uninspired early 80s arcade conversions, but things seem to be back on track.

My mate's bugging me to buy Assault Heroes for the 2 player mode, which is no bad thing. I'm a big fan of Ikari Warriors, Jackal, Commando et al, and again the presentation looks more Metal Slug era coin-op than shareware title.

Uno is a funny one to get excited about but the presentation is the best I've ever seen for an card game. The whole package is incredibly stylish and well thought out.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 17-Jan-2007 at 12:26 AM.
Last edited by clebin on 17-Jan-2007 at 12:19 AM.

@clebin

Quote:

My mate's bugging me to buy Assault Heroes for the 2 player mode, which is no bad thing. I'm a big fan of Ikari Warriors, Jackal, Commando et al, and again the presentation looks more Metal Slug era coin-op than shareware title.

It easily surpasses Neo Contra on PS2 in both graphics and gameplay. Neo Contra is good but Assault Heroes is just... brilliant. I just put down the controller after adding another two achievements actually

And yeah... UNO is quite amazing for a card game. I bought the Live Vision cam for that sole purpose and I've had lots of fun hours playing online and seeing the people I was playing with.

As for Metal Slug: stay tuned because Heavy Weapon is landing tomorrow. That looks like classic Metal Slug style gameplay - 2D and everything. There's a mini review here.

I'll be sitting at my 360 the second I get up tomorrow

@Trezzer

Thanks! I downloaded Assault Heros. It's a fun game and easily worth the money. The worst thing is the crappy repeative techno soundtrack. Playing my own music definitely help take away that annoyance and gave the game more staying power for me.

As for UNO -- nice presentation and game. I'm not one for UNO myself as I find it boring. But for those who like it, it was done well. I did try the demo a while ago because everyone was raving about it.

BTW, we talked about some IPTV for the PS3. Not exactly that, but MythTV is already running on the PS3 (thru Linux ,though).

Check:

http://ps3.qj.net/MythTV-on-your-PS3/pg/49/aid/79651

Did someone say PVR ?

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@Jorge

Quote:

While XNA is nice, I consider this just another game engine (or editor as it allows engine plugins - but so does e.g. Blender), but it is another step to degenerate the programming environment (it's hard enough to find people who can really program nowadays, XNA enforces even more click and point "programming" - don't even know, why that's still called programming).

Microsoft Game Express Studio 1.0 (using Visual C# 2005) is not quite pure "click and point" programming. The programming model is high level objects.

Example of GSE code snippet...
Quote:

... protected override void Draw(GameTime gameTime) { graphics.GraphicsDevice.Clear(Color.CornflowerBlue); //Copy any parent transforms Matrix[] transforms = new Matrix[myModel.Bones.Count]; myModel.CopyAbsoluteBoneTransformsTo(transforms); //Draw the model, a model can have multiple meshes, so loop foreach (ModelMesh mesh in myModel.Meshes) { //This is where the mesh orientation is set, as well as our camera and projection foreach (BasicEffect effect in mesh.Effects) { effect.EnableDefaultLighting(); effect.World = transforms[mesh.ParentBone.Index] * Matrix.CreateRotationY(modelRotation) * Matrix.CreateTranslation(modelPosition); effect.View = Matrix.CreateLookAt(cameraPosition, Vector3.Zero, Vector3.Up); effect.Projection = Matrix.CreatePerspectiveFieldOfView(MathHelper.ToRadians(45.0f), aspectRatio, 1.0f, 10000.0f); } //Draw the mesh, will use the effects set above. mesh.Draw(); } } ...

It encapsulates low level "plumping" work.

Wintel application** programmers (Delphi, C#, VB.NET, MSVC/MFC/ATL) can easily get into GSE. **Capable in programming an accounting system or manage information system from scratch.

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@Hammer

Well, then maybe I should call it the "VBA for game programming".

Take it easy guys. I'll cheer you up

_________________
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I found a relatively interesting article on the hi-def battle at CES. I don't necessarily agree with his observations, but it's an interesting point of view and well worth the read if you're interested in hi-def playback.

@Jorge

Ok ok. We can then call PS3 Linux the console version of a computer with Linux and S3 Virge with CPU caches disabled.

OK, time for something slightly less silly: IGN had a roundtable discussion on next-gen graphics where they talk both PC, 360 and PS3.

Two opposite views on the PS3 from two guys over at 1Up:

Sam Kennedy surprised he learned to love his PS3:
http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7788554&publicUserId=4561231

"This may come as a bit of a surprise to some of you (it sure came as a surprise to me), but I am absolutely loving my PS3 right now."

" I'm quite impressed. I've been playing a bunch of games, downloading stuff like Gripshift and GTHD, and watching lots of Blu-ray movies thanks to netflix. It's been awesome."

"hen there are the little touches that just add to the PS3's overall sleekness - it's super quiet, it has no bulky power brick like the Wii and 360, and the touch sensitive buttons are neat little addition."

"built in Wi-Fi. And from there, it was so easy to get online, and thanks to my super fast internet connection, I was downloading large demos in no time."

"Now, one of the things I still wonder about with the PS3 is the lack of rumble in the controller. I haven't missed it so far - in fact, I haven't even really noticed or thought
about it "

" I'm starting to agree with his stance: by being so light, you do kind of forget that you're holding a controller. It actually feels more natural."

"PS3 is actually off to a great start. In the first two months of release, it sold better than the Xbox 360 did in its first two months last year."

James Mielke seems to already hate the console before he bought it, just recently:
http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7785774&publicUserId=4549175

" when every asshole and their mom was standing in line to get one for the sake of charging exorbitant rates for on eBay"

"So, now I feel dirty. $600 is not an inconsiderable amount of money, so in having purchased a PS3, when there's precious few games that I want to play -- actually, there's none -- and I don't have an HDTV at home"

"Ha ha. Ha ha. At least I didn't pay $3,000 for this thing, you eBaying price-jacking assholes."


IMO Sam's perspectives and writings seem far more objective and informative, I think James' views may turn around at some point, for instance after finishing Resistance and the plays online with 40 buddies, or maybe when he tries out the early Motorstorm demo or when another good game hits the market. I think James' views sound a bit extreme, but also familiar, similar to what we have seen from various media, already bashing the console without even testing the device extensively.

@MikeB

There's an interesting article on Ars Technica about Bluray as a games medium. It can be read in its entirety here.

A select quote about Oblivion which we've discussed earlier:
"There is another way around this, if you're a developer: use the extra space of the Blu-ray disc and make your data redundant. Put important game data on multiple places on the game disc, and that way you decrease the amount of space the laser needs to travel to load the data you use often.

According to this month's Electronic Gaming Monthly, this is how Oblivion is going to get around the slow-loading issue with its PS3 release. Said Bethesda's Todd Howard, "Drive speed matters more to me [than total capacity], and Blu-ray is slower."

There quotes are surprisingly laid back for 1up. Their credibility is at an all-time low (have a look at the retracted reviews and other scandals recently), but at least those comments seem fair enough.

Last edited by Trezzer on 18-Jan-2007 at 02:51 PM.

Wow, linux hacking already in progress and it hasn't even been released?!?!?!?

*EDIT*

Well after looking at this story it's looking like the system will be a flop unless Sony gets it's #### in gear and produces a killer app of some kind.

Also "The console will sell for about $815 in Ireland for the 60GB model. The pricing is blamed on the country’s VAT rate."

w00t!

You could get a killer PC for that and some peripherals besides!

Last edited by ED209 on 18-Jan-2007 at 03:16 PM.

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SiG Na TuRe?

@Trezzer

But sadly Ars included some severe misinformation:

Quote:

he Xbox 360 uses a 12x DVD, which should give it about 16MB/second.

16 MB/s for a 12x DVD is the absolute max for a single layer disk, but on average the speed is quite a bit less.

Regarding a dual layer DVD the speed for a 12x drive is 8x max, while the average speed is well below the Blu-Ray's minimal speed of 9 MB/s.

Also every PS3 comes with a harddrive, which allows developers to reduce loading times significantly. Based on comments from someone owning both RR7&RR6, RR7 already loads slightly quicker than RR6 without even being installed and this despite the additional graphics, while with being harddrive installed the game loads far quicker.

Smaller games like Gears of War may load quicker on the XBox 360, especially if the data which is required to load fast is stored at the outer edges of the DVD.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jan-2007 at 03:08 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jan-2007 at 03:07 PM.

@MikeB

Yes, 16MB is max - we've already discussed this. It doesn't change the fact that they need to resolve to a workaround like the one they mentioned while it apparently wasn't necessary on the 360 with dvd. The article makes a good point with: why should people have to bother?

It's ok in cases where the content is streamed to the HD on the fly as a cache during quiet points (I'm sure PS3 games do this and some 360 games do when a HDD is detected), but having to do a proper install of a game on a console... seriously?

Btw don't count on RR7 taking up more space graphically. Just because the resolution is higher it doesn't mean that it has to load more - the textures are still the same quality as the prequel and if they've changed some models to have more polygons that won't be a change in loading times that's worth mentioning either. They might have optimized the data stream on the disc to improve loading times in time for the PS3 release - or they might use the same technique as Bethesda.

Last edited by Trezzer on 18-Jan-2007 at 03:27 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 18-Jan-2007 at 03:24 PM.

* BUMP! *

Also I read on teletext a while back that one of Sony's big wigs had refused to sign a similar deal with Rockstar to the one they had with them on the PS2 to get exclusive rights to GTA's next outing. Now if that isn't kicking yourself in the nuts, I don't know what is...

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@ED209

It's not as much refusing as not giving it priority. Ken Kutaragi was busy with other things prior to the PS3 launch and Playstation lost a lot of temporary exclusives on that account.

@Trezzer

Microsoft's 360 as a product was looked at in the market as an 'upgrade' to those who already owned an Xbox. However, Microsoft is now claiming that close to 1/2 the 360s sold were sold to people who didn't own an Xbox. Which is good it means new people are coming to those console. If the PS3 doesn't get to the 70% marketshare Sony has with the PS2 it'll likely be seen that Microsoft and Nintendo were able to make in roads into canibalizing Sony's base. Undoubtably, like me, some people will end up with both a PS3 and 360 under their TV.

Speaking of hi-def media...

Since I just found a killer app for HD-DVD for me personally, I've been looking for a drive for the 360. It looks like it's out of stock everywhere

Anyone who knows of somewhere that has it in stock where it's not second hand?

@Trezzer

Quote:

I've been looking for a drive for the 360. It looks like it's out of stock everywhere

I was at Target on Sunday and they had 2. So poke around some Targets perhaps.

@BrianK

They won't ship internationally :-/ They did have it in stock online though.

New Japan figures for Week Ending 14th January 2007.

Some surprises:

DS 114,250 Total: 14,571,250
Wii 99,500 Total: 1,258,750
PSP 46,750 Total: 4,926,250
PS3 34,750 Total: 578,000
PS2 25,000 Total: 21,926,000
X360 9,500 Total: 316,250

- Great Nintendo DS / Wii figures
- So so Sony PS2, PS3 and PSP figures
- XBox 360 Game over...

Total PS3s for Asia is currently estimated to be above: 640K
Total PS3s for North America is currently estimated to be above 940K.
Total XBox 360s still estimated to be below 9 million.

Last 3 months of 2006 for Australia:

NDS = 151,992
PS2 = 122,639
PSP = 55,850
Wii = 51,744
X360 = 45,036

Good NDS and PS2 figures.