@minator

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If you really want to annoy a 360 fan show them this - ouch!

Those differences are not that big. The PS2 and MegaDrive went up against much stronger competition than that. I was more disappointed when I heard that the PS3 doesn't make a noise like Concorde.

The price is everything. If people don't think it's worth the extra dosh, they won't pay for it.

Chris

@Trezzer

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You don't think the list above is pretty varied?

No, I really don't. Some are stealthy, some are tactical, some are in your face action shooters.

I don't see it as a medium for wildly different experiences. For instance, you mentioned a "sci-fi shooter" and "WW2 shooter" (edited for grammar)

It doesn't matter whether I'm playing Halo or Call of Duty or Perfect Dark Zero: here comes a bad guy, I'm going to hide behind this wall and then shoot him. In one game I have a tank, in another maybe some hover mobile. In one game I have a rifle, in the other a blue pulse lazer. Differences in weaponry is really about rapidity/rhythm of fire, reload time, etc - the graphics are just a superficial layer.

Sorry, as I said, I'm just not as into them as you are, although I do play them.

I said it might cloud my judgement. Being into them might cloud your judgement too. In the end, only the future will tell.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 12-Dec-2006 at 08:21 PM.

@Trezzer

Sorry, I didn't answer your second point. Yes, there are definitely examples of innovation out there. I'm not saying the industry is going to have an 80s style crash.

Oblivion is great example of using the technology to create a more believable game-world - I loved it - and GTA 4 too. GTA3 seemed to be designed for PS2 and you can see those constraints even on the PC version.

Viva Pinata (sorry for the lack of accents) does look interesting and Rare could be a good asset for Microsoft.

Nintendo have a potentially great chance. Lots of publicity, good-will and a unique product. I want to see them seize it and the industry respond by putting genuine time and effort into their Wii games.

Chris

@clebin

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I don't see it as a medium for wildly different experiences. For instance, you mentioned a "sci-fi shooter" and "WW2 shooter"

Indeed I did. But how about the others then? Like Mass Effect. The gameplay is nothing like Call of Duty or Halo. Or Condemned for that matter.

Quote:

Sorry, as I said, I'm just not as into them as you are, although I do play them.

Oh, I don't play many FPS myself. The number of FPS games I've bought over the years must be less than 10 - and that includes Alien Breed 3D and DOOM I just happen to keep up with games in general since I'm a game reviewer.

Quote:

In one game I have a tank, in another maybe some hover mobile. In one game I have a rifle, in the other a blue pulse lazer. Differences in weaponry is really about rapidity/rhythm of fire, reload time, etc - the graphics are just a superficial layer.

Still, it's like saying all 2D side-scrolling games are the same. Would you say Shinobi and Giana Sisters are basically the same?

And is GUN similar to GTA because it's free-roaming and third person? I doubt you'd find much similar beyond the initial specifications.

When it comes to games (as well as films etc.), tempo, context, setting, gameplay mechanics etc. make a huge difference. To take another example from the previous list, it's hard to see any similarity between Condemned and Halo despite that they are first person shooters. They don't convey the same emotions, narrative, weapon usage (melee vs ranged), environments or anything else besides share the first person perspective.

That's why I'd classify Condemned as primarily a horror game with more similarities to Manhunt and Resident Evil than to Halo.

Likewise Mass Effect will have more in common with Jade Empire, Fable and Knights of the Old Republic than Call of Duty (with which it will have practically nothing in common).

Mass Effect has a huge storyline where dialogue has massive effects on the outcome of the game. How is that related in any way to Halo (for example)?

Fable also has fighting elements and is seen from a third person perspective, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would compared it directly to Gears of War - other than both being triple A titles. Heck, Oblivion is first person and you fight in it - that should place it right in there with the rest of them. Dark Messiah is another good example of how first person games are not The Same(TM).

In other words you can do whatever you want with the game even though it's in first person or third person. The perspective is not a genre - the content defines the genre. It's much the same as a western would still be a western if you filmed it in an unusual manner. A musical does not become a western by filming it with the typical technique used in westerns, though.

Last edited by Trezzer on 12-Dec-2006 at 08:46 PM.

@minator

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There's no indication that it's anything other than PPE only at this stage - and likely not optimised.

Yes...that was actually my point

Interesting dev article, like coding for cluster computing with MPI all over again, in the brief description of how they use the SPEs.

I still wish Sony would pony up and add force feedback back into the system.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@clebin
Quote:

It doesn't matter whether I'm playing Halo or Call of Duty or Perfect Dark Zero: here comes a bad guy, I'm going to hide behind this wall and then shoot him. In one game I have a tank, in another maybe some hover mobile. In one game I have a rifle, in the other a blue pulse lazer. Differences in weaponry is really about rapidity/rhythm of fire, reload time, etc - the graphics are just a superficial layer.

IF this is a fair criticism then it applies even more so racing games, and the upcoming Gran Turismo. You can turn left, right, brake or accelerate. When you crash into a wall you may get forced onto the track or get completely stopped. In one game you have a better rendered car or building and can configure your car w/ your favorite color but the graphics are just superficial you're still playing Pole Position.

@Trezzer

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How so? So people who aren't experts can't tell the difference. Big deal. Looking at screenshots it's pretty easy to tell the difference. When things are moving it can be more difficult, although you should still be able to notice things like texture quality etc. - but of course you have to know what to look for.

The game 360 fans usually point to to show off the system is Gears, yet when compared it didn't look different. I thought it quite funny.

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If they wanted to they could have chosen a display that doesn't support 1080p and see how well the PS3 would display the movies. At least they're on as favorable ground as the PS3 can get.

The problem is with old HD sets and will most likely be fixed in software, 1080i doesn't appear to be a problem for movie playback (all "HD ready" sets are required to handle this resolution input).
720 to 1080i upscaling appears to be a problem for some games but again this will likely be fixed in software.

They should have tried playing an SACD - support for them is due to be included this month.

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Whyzzat?

@wegster

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Interesting dev article, like coding for cluster computing with MPI all over again, in the brief description of how they use the SPEs.

There's another pretty balanced piece here.

@BrianK
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IF this is a fair criticism then it applies even more so racing games, and the upcoming Gran Turismo. You can turn left, right, brake or accelerate. When you crash into a wall you may get forced onto the track or get completely stopped. In one game you have a better rendered car or building and can configure your car w/ your favorite color but the graphics are just superficial you're still playing Pole Position.

Many people may actually prefer playing a prettyfied Pole position...
I think high quality game physics will be able to change this, at least in some games.

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Whyzzat?

@minator

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The game 360 fans usually point to to show off the system is Gears, yet when compared it didn't look different. I thought it quite funny.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to see the difference yourself if you find a final screenshot of both games and compare things like lighting and texture quality. Gears looks better than anything currently out there and Resistance looks like a PC game from 2 years ago. That's not bad, of course, but nor is it stunning.

I don't know how much it matters. They're selling to casual gamers too and they may not know the difference.

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The problem is with old HD sets and will most likely be fixed in software

Let's hope they can. It's not just old HD sets though - it's also sets that aren't all that big.

@minator

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Many people may actually prefer playing a prettyfied Pole position...

Sadly!

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I think high quality game physics will be able to change this, at least in some games.

Some games already have this to some extent. The F1 series on PS2 features some wrecking and Rallisport had the graphical deformation of the car. Forza also had some simulation of it (visual as well as actual effect).

The problem isn't just simulating it, though. It's getting the permission from the car companies to wreck the likeness of their cars. If you want official licenses it's hard to permission to do full physics in other words.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Condemned

Sadly I don't really like this game as much as you do. For me it's a bit too dark, repetitive and lacking in the story telling and visual department if compared to for instance the good old Max Payne, Return to castle Wolfenstein, Half-Life 2 or Doom 3.

The coolest thing I like about this game is the hard swings those nutcases aim at you, other than this the game fails to suck me into the story.

@MikeB

Those that vote PS3 either don't have a clue or have not been reading the news: SONY is having produciton problems and Microsoft does not. MS is currently out selling PS3, with weeks to go, I can't see SONY being able to solve its production problems.

The clear winner will is and will continue to be XBOX until SONY can figure out its production problems!

IS the PS3 hot, in terms of what it can fetch on ebay -- ya sure you betcha

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@A500

Or maybe you misread Christmas 2007 for Christmas 2006.

@Trezzer

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Nor is Gears of War aimed at the Japanese Market. Blue Dragon, on the other hand, is.

They sold 70,000 copies of Blue Dragon in the first week. Also interesting to note that 27,000 of those were bundled with new XBox 360s for $256!

So I think it seems even more likely we will soon see a global drop in price and/or maybe some bundled games.

@MikeB

Ok, I did read wrong and apologise. This is a much more interesting question then.

SONY will have a lot of room to make up. I think thye are behind by about 7MM units right now. Missing Christmas while Xbox is available does not help them, nor does having Wii even cheaper.

SONY has a good box, the release of killer games to showcase the technology will be key.

My bets are on Xbox for now.

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@Thread


More brutal reality to try to cure the sickness and madness:

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3155393

My apologies to the fanatics

@vision

Did you really expect to see major differences in early PS3 conversions?

ST vs Amiga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Amiga_Populous.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ST_Populous.png

Surely based on these screenshots we can clearly judge that the Amiga with its custom chips was by far superior?

It's not that Bullfrog was incompetent or anything, extra development investments just wouldn't have added sufficient additional sales to justify the additional effort (and possible delays).

@MikeB

One thing is being at the same level, wich is obvious it would happen in some cases, because of the reduction costs (that anyway no one could say it will not be the case for the entire life cycle, except in the case of very exclusive developments like Metal Gear (if it is not done for 360n in the end :D), Gran turismo or Ico (3), wich would compete against Halo 3, Gears of War or Project Gotham 3)

But the problem here is that in some cases the graphics are WORSE. and not because the unknowing of the cell. But because some limits related to the RSX. This is the problem.

This, and believing things like Kutaragi said over the years. "pearls" like the ones you can see on the 1up page and that the sony fanboys believe as stupids, withouth realising they are just marketing.

Last edited by vision on 13-Dec-2006 at 06:37 PM.

@MikeB
Quote:

Did you really expect to see major differences in early PS3 conversions?

Sony's claims don't differentiate between early games or later ones. Sony claimed that this console would blow all others away, but so far it isn't happening. It seems like at least ONE game would stand out on the PS3, so far none have. In addition to the usual gouged sale prices on Ebay for PS3s, I've also been seeing posts of people wanting to trade off PS3s for other systems.


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It's not that Bullfrog was incompetent or anything, extra development investments just wouldn't have added sufficient additional sales to justify the additional effort (and possible delays).

If you had read the article in question you would see that this is the thrust of the writer's opinion. Sony isn't pushing game writers to produce higher quality work the way that they did with the PS2. We won't be seeing any conversions that look any better than they do on other platforms, because there is strong incentive not to waste time and money developing a better looking conversion for PS3. That isn't to say that someday somebody won't come up with a terrific looking game PS3-only game that will put other platforms to shame, but so far the vibe is the PS3 is a disappointment which doesn't live up to the hype.

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Here for the whimpering end

@minator

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Many people may actually prefer playing a prettyfied Pole position... I think high quality game physics will be able to change this, at least in some games.

That was my point indirectly. Games are played by those who like that sort of game. The criticisms you show for FPS occur in other genre's too. Higher quality physics along with graphics happen in other genre's too.