@Trezzer

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I'm not trying to belittle the Wii, but you can have proper next-gen gaming (with harddrive!) at the same price as the Wii costs.

Not really - it's the same argument that you made for the PS3 extras. Those component cables are optional.

As for proper next-gen gaming, the golf mechanics I described in the other thread feel like a significant leap to me. 3rd party support is crucial, but the freshness of the games will justify the purchase I feel.

What's wrong with all these arguments is that different people will make an informed decision about whether they want to play stand up and play tennis or play a next-gen FPS, or whether they want HD movies or not. And they all come to a different and equally correct decision.

Everyone who's played on my Wii wants one. Girls are saying to their boyfriends "I think you should buy one". I've shown my friends games on the 360 many times, and they just weren't that interested. That's up to them, really.

Chris

@clebin

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The HD-DVD is an optional purchase. Either you want high-def movies or you don't.

There are more important benefits for having a Blu-Ray drive inside the PS3, the disc has to spin much slower for achieving faster loadtimes, this benefits noise production. Another benefit is the additional disc space, for instance the XBox 360 game Blue Dragon already comes supplied on multiple DVDs, with the next PS3 Final Fantasy release this will not be the case. Also Blu-Ray disc are more resistant against scratching.

So would it make sense if the Blu-Ray drive wouldn't be able to use Blu-Ray movie content? IMO of course not, movie content can be used inside games as well and the choice to use the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player should be applauded.

@MikeB

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I don't think the XBox 360 is really a cheap solution. Like with the PS3 you will need to own a suitable display to fully enjoy high definition gaming.

That's not necessarily an added cost. People may well have one already - and I think that this has indeed been the reason that the 360 adoption rate isn't a whole lot higher: While a lot have hi-def tvs, it's far from the majority. It's just like when the original Xbox had ethernet and people were saying it was premature because modems were the standard. Well, during its lifetime modem gaming sure went marginal very fast. This probably won't be the case with television sets, but it's something regular consumers are buying now.

Any way you twist and turn it, the 360 offers a lot more bang for the buck for gamers than the PS3 does. The basic premium machine is extremely good value - I dare say it's far better than any other console on the market (yes, PS2 included - simply because you get so much more bang for your buck with the 360).

If you're interested in gaming AND BluRay then PS3 is a great deal.

@clebin

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Not really - it's the same argument that you made for the PS3 extras. Those component cables are optional.

Strictly speaking, yes. Realistically... I doubt many will want to use that. That's the same reason I argue that the 360 Core is a really crummy deal. Composite was already too poor for last generation machines. For this generation it's just a really really bad joke.

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As for proper next-gen gaming, the golf mechanics I described in the other thread feel like a significant leap to me.

I was far from satisfied with Wii Sports golf comared to the other golf sims out there. It's not fair comparing it either since this is just a fun little game and not a big serious golf sim. While it's true to an extent that it's more like the real thing, I also found it very limiting - and frustrating because of it. Actually I think the mechanisms using analogue triggers for swing / the DS stylus work better so far. But let's give it some time :)

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they all come to a different and equally correct decision.

Indeed. It's about finding the solution that makes the best sense to you - gameplay wise and economically. It's about choice.

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Everyone who's played on my Wii wants one. Girls are saying to their boyfriends "I think you should buy one".

I know at least a handful of people who either don't buy many consoles / any at all that now have or want Wii. Like I said earlier the Wii is a good thing for gaming in general whether you're interested in the Wii as a gaming device or not yourself. I think it holds massive potential just like the DS demonstrated that it had. But yes, third party support is crucial. Luckily it doesn't seem to be a problem at all.

@Trezzer

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That's not necessarily an added cost. People may well have one already

Yes and for such people it's nice their HDTV is well supported by the two game consoles. Likewise I think many 1080p HDTV owners will appreciate the PS3's 1080p support in future blockbuster games like WarDevil, Gran Turismo 5 and Lair.

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(yes, PS2 included - simply because you get so much more bang for your buck with the 360)

I don't believe this is the case for everyone. The PS2 has a games library of many thousand titles.

@Trezzer

Coincidentally I posted in the other thread, that the thumb action was a cruder version of the Wii...

Really, to do things properly they'll have to build the Wiimote mechanics into the grip of a golf club and let real golfers go out and play golf, recording all the data and trying to turn that into some kind of model. That's way beyond what we can expect right now.

I hope you're right about 3rd party support and they don't have too many preconceived notions about what Wii gamers want or don't want.

By the way, component cables are sadly not a joke for me. My 28" widescreen is still a nice set, but SCART is the reality I'm afraid!

Chris

@MikeB

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don't believe this is the case for everyone. The PS2 has a games library of many thousand titles.

Yeah, but as much as it's all about the games, this is also an investment. And that's where I consider the 360 - which already has excellent value and games - to be more interesting than the alternatives from a financial point of view. You get the full potential of XNA (including user generated content), XBLA, movie store and all the rest. There's a huge selection of old Xbox titles to play as well and those can be had really cheap.

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Yes and for such people it's nice their HDTV is well supported by the two game consoles.

If you mean PS2 and PS3... I'd say 480p isn't exactly "well supported". Even though there are a few games which are capable of more. I have component cables for my PS2 and the quality is really quite... horrible when you're used to 720p+ >.<

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Likewise I think many 1080p HDTV owners will appreciate the PS3's 1080p support in future blockbuster games like WarDevil, Gran Turismo 5 and Lair.

Oh really? I think they'll hate it. Come on. This is just silly. Of course there will be games that people enjoy an *all* the platforms. I doubt they're going to enjoy a game more because it's in 1080p - and we've already had the discussion about GPUs vs effects to death so let's just leave it at that shall we?

The first benefits from Blu-Ray mass production, dedicated player prices drop below 600 USD!

@clebin

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By the way, component cables are sadly not a joke for me. My 28" widescreen is still a nice set, but SCART is the reality I'm afraid!

I wasn't talking about component being a joke - it's composite that's a joke. SCART delivers a pretty nice picture on a regular tv as long as it's a proper RGB signal unlike the composite + SCART adapters we've seen far too often. In fact SCART is about as good as it gets before going component.

Composite, on the other hand, is just horrible.

Below are a couple of comparison shots (s-video isn't quite as good as SCART but close)

RGB left, composite right
composite left - s-video right
composite left - s-video right

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Coincidentally I posted in the other thread, that the thumb action was a cruder version of the Wii...

For it to be more crude it would have to offer less control IMHO. The Wii Sports golf game gives you very little precise control over the ball compared to Links 2004 or Tiger Woods games.

Last edited by Trezzer on 03-Jan-2007 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 03-Jan-2007 at 10:05 PM.

@Trezzer

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If you mean PS2 and PS3.

I was referring to the Xbox 360 and PS3. They both support 720p gaming, the PS2 doesn't.

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This is just silly. Of course there will be games that people enjoy an *all* the platforms. I doubt they're going to enjoy a game more because it's in 1080p

Yes and no. Sure you will enjoy a movie nomatter if it's on VHS or on Blu-Ray, still you will most likely prefer Blu-Ray if you own a 1080p full HD television set. The same goes with regard to games, provided PS3 developers are right they are not making crucial compromises.

@MikeB

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There are more important benefits for having a Blu-Ray drive inside the PS3, the disc has to spin much slower for achieving faster loadtimes

Except as we saw earlier it's not really that fast.

Seems load times from hard drive aren't even that great...

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Also Blu-Ray disc are more resistant against scratching.

Is that so? How come? Is there an extra layer on there? Typically higher density means scratching is a bigger problem.

@MikeB

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Yes and no. Sure you will enjoy a movie nomatter if it's on VHS or on Blu-Ray, still you will most likely prefer Blu-Ray if you own a 1080p full HD television set.

Then again I'd most likely rather enjoy a movie that was recorded on film and has been through full post-processing than one that was just shot with a hi-def camera and had a bit of colour correction. (to match your example)

There's a huge difference between 480p and 720p. The jump from there to 1080i/p isn't as great though - although I'm sure a huge enough TV will let you tell the difference fairly easily with pictures side by side.

Again you're making a huge deal out of 1080p when it's not really something to be overly excited about - especially because the difference is relatively small. A game rendered in 720p and scaled to 1080i/p looks great and if the slightly lower resolution is the price to pay for the full range of effects then by all means ... go ahead. In fact it's not even particularly easy to make out the difference between 720p and 1080p on my monitor even when the monitor handles the scaling from 720p. Of course this is just 24" but it is very high res on the other hand.

Like I've already said 1080p games can work for some games just fine - especially the ones that don't need many effects. For others it will look to weak in 1080p compared to the games you're used to. It's the good ol' "sweet spot" again.

@Trezzer

Component was a typo, sorry - I was talking about the dreaded composite + SCART adapter you mentioned.

The official RGB SCART lead is expensive but there's another one coming out for £17 on Amazon. I might get one even if it's just for small text in the internet channel.

Chris

@MikeB

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The novelty about the Nintendo Wii isn't a component cable, it's the wireless controller. The core 360 comes with a wired controller. If you want to reason like that a XBox 360 premium + Wi-Fi + HD-DVD drive + Yearly XBox live costs and with less harddrive space is by far more expensive than a PS3 premium.

Look they are comparable machines. If someone did a bit of searching they could pay under list price for the 360 premium. As I indicated before the best price I knew of was $299 instead of $399. The Wii is $259 and the component cables another $30. Sorry but composite doesn't cut it for me even on Standard Def. That's a difference of $10 this hardly makes the 360 the horrid value you want to protray.

Xbox Live Silver is free. Gold is $50 a year. But, again if you look you can find deals Kids-R-Us closed out some old Xbox Live Memberships for $16.99. Games often come with a few months of Gold for free so if you're selective you could even not pay for Gold.

You are assuming people really HighDef. If you really want to compare a full system including it's HighDef DVD drive look at the poor deal your Wii is. It's almost $1,000 for a Wii + Sony Blu-Ray player + proper cablings for everything. This is far more expensive then the PS3 or 360+HD-DVD options and the Wii is the worst deal!

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the things which has got me interested the most in the PS3

The Cell is impressive. Less impressive if you consider where the Cell really shines are not in the areas most used by videogames which is where the Cell is being used in the PS3.

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. Likewise I think many 1080p HDTV owners will appreciate the PS3's 1080p support in future blockbuster games like WarDevil, Gran Turismo 5 and Lair.

You do realize the Xbox360 upscales 720p to 1080p just like the PS3 right? You do realise the Xbox360 can do 1080p natively right? You do realize the majority of HDTVs output 720p or 1080i right and since they don't output 1080p that point is unimportant for the majority of HDTV models right? You do realize that picture differences between 720p and 1080p are unnoticeable until you get over 60" and again the majority of HDTV models are under 60" right?

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Sure you will enjoy a movie nomatter if it's on VHS or on Blu-Ray, still you will most likely prefer Blu-Ray if you own a 1080p full HD television set.

The Blu-Ray jump from DVD isn't as large as the DVD jump from VHS. 1080p isn't the huge jump over 720p that 720p was over the older 480i. And no you won't always prefer Blu-Ray . If a movie has lots of action and special effects perhaps the 3x higher Blu-Ray price is warranted. But, if it's some movie about relationships and lots of close ups Blu-Ray may be worse. Army of Darkness is on HD-DVD and DVD. The HD-DVD looks worse. Why? It's not the imaging or detail that's much better on HD-DVD. It's that the movie was made with lower def in mind. It's even easier to notice the models and effects are fakes. Seeing the pock marks on Bruce's face doesn't add anything to the movie it detracts from his attractiveness. That added together is the move in HD-DVD really worth 2x price the DVD to someone? Perhaps not to everyone.

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You do realize that picture differences between 720p and 1080p are unnoticeable until you get over 60" and again the majority of HDTV models are under 60" right?

You really don't believe that do you? I own 3 26" HDTVs all do 1080i, two are LCDs one from Insignia the other from Oliviea, and a TUBE based HDTV from Samsung. The Samsung is the oldest but when I hook up either my media center PC over DVI or I hook up my xbox 360 I can tell the difference in resolution modes..

I play a game called Kameo which supports full 1080i and it's beautiful, you can really tell the difference between 720p and 1080i in the texturing and just number of countable dots on the screen if you look really close. It's like the diference between 1280x720 resolution and 1920x1080 resolution..

Maybe I am just lucky but my two laptops are also widescreen. In the USA it's obviously a differente situation than elsewhere, but we CAN really see the difference.. It annoys me to go into best buy and see all the HDTVs in 480p mode running off a video distribution amp. People try to pick out the best picture, and they really can't tell because the video they are pumping in, isn't HI-DEF source in the first place..

Anyway just my two cents, but I can SEE the difference in rendering and even shader fx.. By the way I have worked for two cable tv companies and I know a bit about video engineering, I can tell the difference.. If you have seen the diff you will know..

Last edited by DonnieA2 on 04-Jan-2007 at 05:11 AM.

@Trezzer

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Except as we saw earlier it's not really that fast.

The PS3 reads at minimum 9MB/s from Blu-Ray disks, on average XBox 360 drives read DVD content slightly slower just below this figure. The harddrives load data significantly faster.

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Is that so? How come? Is there an extra layer on there?

Protective Durabis coating by TDK. "It is claimed to be tough enough to resist screwdriver damage and make scratched optical discs (CDs and DVDs) a thing of the past." Sony and Panasonic have their own independent hard coating technologies that are primarily in use on Blu-ray pre-recorded discs.

Also tests indicate that the PS3 is more scratch tolerant than the XBox 360 drives regarding reading scratched DVDs.

It seems the PS3 has done better than the XBox 360 did during its launch for North America.

Some research shows that for 2005 MS sold 900k to retailers and retailers sold 670k to users. The PS3 is now estimated to have sold more than 750.000 units to users by retailers for 2006. Of course for Japan, the PS3 has performed much better than the XBox 360, already way ahead of total XBox 360 sales figures.

Maybe MS XBox fans should lower guns?

@MikeB

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Maybe MS XBox fans should lower guns?

Did anyone ever say that it wouldn't sell as much as they could deliver? (and was it because they were Xbox fans?)

But yes, they did perform slightly better than expected - yet not as good as they should have. Just like the 360 the launch was rushed and launch day itself was catastrophic. Let's hope they're better prepared for the European launch (at least they've had a chance to get things sorted out).

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Some research shows that for 2005 MS sold 900k to retailers and retailers sold 670k to users.

Quoting Wikipedia again : "By year's end, Microsoft had sold 1.5 million units; including 900,000 in North America, 500,000 in Europe, and 100,000 in Japan."

Last edited by Trezzer on 04-Jan-2007 at 01:05 PM.

@MikeB

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The PS3 reads at minimum 9MB/s from Blu-Ray disks, on average XBox 360 drives read DVD content slightly slower just below this figure.

"The Xbox 360 is equipped with a 12x DVD drive, capable of a read rate of 8.2-15.9 MB/s, depending on the location on the disc, compared to Playstation 3's 8.6 MB/s." (Wikipedia)

It would be have been odd if the PS3s drive was faster since the load times are reported to be significantly longer than on Xbox 360.

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Protective Durabis coating by TDK. "It is claimed to be tough enough to resist screwdriver damage and make scratched optical discs (CDs and DVDs) a thing of the past." Sony and Panasonic have their own independent hard coating technologies that are primarily in use on Blu-ray pre-recorded discs.

Ah. Did anyone actually test this or is this like the "can withstand a hit from a hammer" from back when the cd was launched? Having a protective layer is a good thing though.

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Also tests indicate that the PS3 is more scratch tolerant than the XBox 360 drives regarding reading scratched DVDs.

Yes reports say so. I must admit, though, that I haven't really tried anything the 360 wouldn't play yet whether it was media files on a writable medium or factory produced media. I haven't even had the dreaded "disc is dirty" thing that I had one time on the original Xbox (where the disc in reality wasn't produced right).

Even if the drive in the PS3 isn't faster than the 360 it's a good thing that it's more quiet during games and more resilient to scratches. I'm not really sure what I prefer at the end of the day... almost quiet or fast loading times. It's a tough one.

Last edited by Trezzer on 04-Jan-2007 at 01:01 PM.

@Trezzer

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Quoting Wikipedia again : "By year's end, Microsoft had sold 1.5 million units; including 900,000 in North America, 500,000 in Europe, and 100,000 in Japan."

Wikipedia quotes Microsoft regarding sales to retailers. However NPD provides sales data regarding units sold to customers. They did not sell 230,000 of these shipped units to users in 2005, maybe it was a last minute delivery to retailers considering there was demand and shortages or retailers held some stock off the market for whatever other reason, maybe even faking demand.

After reading up at sales stats websites I finally understand why there is so much conflicting data. I already thought this was the case.