@jtsiren

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Xbox had, what, two colors at best?

There were actually quite a few, but most were limited editions. In high street stores I saw transparent and dark green ones besides the black one.

I'd want a Halo Kitty themed Xbox

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Certainly PS2's biggest shortcoming was the lack of/poor anti-aliasing, but there were other things as well - it simply didn't compute as fast, no matter how Sony tried to spun the emotion engine/vector units story.

The newer technology in the Xbox GPU was a definite advantage. While there were some good looking FPSes on PS2 (like Project Snowblind for instance) none were ever able to stand up to Halo. Killzone tried but neither the gameplay nor the frame rate were quite there.

Another advantage the Xbox had was texture memory. While GameCube was theoretically able to match and surpass it due to extremely fast dedicated texture memory and bandwidth, in reality the Xbox games had better textures than both GameCube and PS2 - except for the cases where games were developed for all three and textures were for the lowest common denominator. In those cases the Xbox typically just had better lighting and better frame rates. GameCube and PS2 took turns at having the best versions - unfortunately the GameCube often didn't get the development time it deserved because it was the console with the smallest market share.

No new XBox 1 hardware has been made for quite a while and there is still unsold stock. Sony is still actively bringing out new PS2 games like God of War II, EyeToy: Play 3 and Rogue Galaxy, while MIcrosoft isn't.

@MikeB

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Apparently recently Microsoft tried to compare the XBox 360 and PS3 to the Ars Technica team, they stated the XBox 360 will not use a HD-DVD drive in the future for gaming.

What do you mean "tried"? :) I think the Ars Technica story is very illustriative of the problem I'm facing. The Arc Technica writer was very satisfied that Microsoft was trying to paint both consoles in a realistic best-of-what-they-can-do manner... and Ars Technica was was unable to find singificant differences in either of their favour.

And that's just it... PS3 was supposed to be so much better. Microsoft should have had a hard time trying to show they can match the PS3. Now they even had a chance to try to show they can out do it! (Even if the reviewer thought both were pretty much equal.) That's the disappointment for me. I really don't think I'm listening to FUD, I really think people are seeing this for themselves.

Obviously this does not mean that future PS3 releases may not improve significantly. Of course they will improve a lot. But it is now an open question whether PS3 will ever be better than Xbox 360, or forever an equal, maybe even less (at least in some ways such as the rumble issue). That's quite a change in my perception from, say, a year ago.

On the bright side, that disappointment has certainly translated into new-found appreciation for the investment I already made in Xbox 360 which is nice. I have no reason to want to get rid of it other than the constant look for the new best thing. If the Xbox 360 continues to be the best or equal to the best then I have very little reason to exchange it.

I will certainly make a point of looking out the games you listed and will continue to follow PS3's progress. But that's not exactly what I wanted from PS3. I wanted to be exited and standing in a line in the wee hours of the morning come beginning of March.

@MikeB

Of course. Microsoft are concentrating on Xbox 360 and have been for a while, but that doesn't mean third party support is gone.

Maybe PS3 would have been more impressive if Sony had focused more on it rather than keeping the PS2 alive - as long as the PS2 offers a lot of value there's little reason to upgrade to PS3 unless you're in the hardcore gamer group who has to have one of each or want a bluray player.

@Thread

I've been following this thread for some time and only interjected once to clarify about the MS-Rare-Nintendo deal.

I've noticed that you guys are really acting like fanboys.

I said facts and point to news articles and somehow the guy thinks his opinion on one version of a story from a site with so-so credibility justifies his opinion despite legitimate sources contradicting it...

Such is the way of most Amiga threads involving technology. Opinions over facts...

The 360's GPU is not a DX10 gpu. It is 9 with extensions. Fully DX10 compliance involves dedicated physics processing hardware which neither the PS3 or 360 have.

But who cares?
Are the games fun?
Why are you trying so hard to justify your purchases (or potential purchases).
I bought a Wii and the graphics suck compared to the other 2. The online is currently mostly non-existant.

It's fun. Even my dad and extended family played bowling over the holidays and I may get him one for his birthday since he loved the bowling so much.

I have 7 games including Red Steel. The graphics on that game are far in advance of any FPS I've seen on the Gamecube but it didn't receive good reviews because the people who reviewed it at places like IGN are expecting every developer have the Wii-mote play like a mouse. Ridiculous. The Nintendo-reviewers are becoming fanboys of a genre now. Normally I don't play FPS games, but the game played like I expected it to and it's the most fun I've had playing an FPS since Quake 2.

The inteface does make old STALE genres new again.

You can't please them all. Just like you people will never be pleased with someone else's opinion that console X > console Y. ... Or OS4 should run on platform X not platform Y.

Developers make products. You buy it or you don't. Who will win in Christmas '07 - decide with your wallet.

@jtsiren

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Obviously this does not mean that future PS3 releases may not improve significantly. Of course they will improve a lot.

IMO then is the time to make an educated judgement. I don't think Atari went through all this trouble when the first Atari orignals were ported to the Amiga. But an indepth comparison next christmas will IMO be a lot more interesting from a technical standpoint.

IMO for now rather look at the PS3 as a cool PS2 successor with Wi-Fi, Blu-Ray, wireless Bluetooth controllers, high definition graphics, etc while still being able to play God of War 2 when the game appears for the PS2. (Like the A1200 being able to play new A500/A600 games). There is more than enough time for developers to prove the PS3 is the most powerful console.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jan-2007 at 06:08 PM.

@Lou

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The 360's GPU is not a DX10 gpu. It is 9 with extensions. Fully DX10 compliance involves dedicated physics processing hardware which neither the PS3 or 360 have.

My bad. I was reading too much into:

"Things get even better when you factor in the Xenos’ MEMEXPORT ability which allows it to enable “streamout” which opens the door for Xenos to achieve DX10 class functionality."

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Such is the way of most Amiga threads involving technology. Opinions over facts...

Surely opinions should be formed from facts? It's human to add conjecture.

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but it didn't receive good reviews because the people who reviewed it at places like IGN are expecting every developer have the Wii-mote play like a mouse.

Actually it's mostly been lambasted because it was rather buggy and controls just weren't that good (they don't have to be mouse style to be good obviously). I usually hang out on a Wii IRC channel and people were generally disappointed in that title. I had high expectations for it myself, but will withhold judgment till I've tried it.

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Normally I don't play FPS games, but the game played like I expected it to and it's the most fun I've had playing an FPS since Quake 2.

That's the thing about personal tastes... I never really found the Quake series fun at all.

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Even my dad and extended family played bowling over the holidays and I may get him one for his birthday since he loved the bowling so much.

That's great to hear. Thankfully we also hear lots of it all over the place. My mom started loving the DS after she got to try Nintendogs and wanted to show the game to her friends. That was definitely a first. Spending a couple of days with the Wii was lots of fun but at the end of the day I was missing what I'd come to expect from achievements, Live and all that. Yeah the controls are different and fun, but I'm not sure they're better by default. To put this into perspective I had pre-ordered a Wii - which was a first for me. I was that much excited about it and followed it from the first rumours about it went around. After reading about more about the actual retail units I decided to cancel my pre-order and try it out first. I still hope it'll be the next big thing and that it'll come with something that makes me crave one.

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The inteface does make old STALE genres new again.

In some cases, yes. In others it does little to improve them and even makes them worse. I don't think anyone here has anything but praise for Wii and what Nintendo are trying to do with it. After trying one I wasn't convinced that it was for me, but a lot of solid titles down the line could certainly change that. I think Trauma Center will be great on Wii for instance.

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Developers make products. You buy it or you don't. Who will win in Christmas '07 - decide with your wallet.

Indeed. Nothing wrong with debating it, though. I'm sure everyone who participated and/or read the thread learned at least one new thing.

Last edited by Trezzer on 07-Jan-2007 at 06:27 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 07-Jan-2007 at 06:25 PM.

@MikeB

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There is more than enough time for developers to prove the PS3 is the most powerful console.

Does that mean that there'll be no more excuses next year if/when the PS3 hasn't caught up?

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The 360's GPU is not a DX10 gpu. It is 9 with extensions. Fully DX10 compliance involves dedicated physics processing hardware which neither the PS3 or 360 have.

I have been programming in direct x since beta 1.0 and all I would say is that I don't necessarily see DirectX 10 as a big advance over directX 9 really. So when you say that it's a "DirectX 10 Card" shouldn't you be talking about Windows Graphics Foundation compliant?

I know people are saying well this is "directx 10" but that's really a misnomer as they renamed based on the fact of the directional changes going on. The bigest diffence I see is that they support more than one vertex in and out.. However I don't think it's that big a departure. I do like the idea of shared surfaces between D3D devices..

Considering hardware functionality that is out there, they could still stand to exploit the hardware out there much more than what they are doing.

@Trezzer

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Trezzer wrote: @Lou Indeed. Nothing wrong with debating it, though. I'm sure everyone who participated and/or read the thread learned at least one new thing.

True. However 41 pages of conjecture over subjective things like this game is better than that game is quite enough. :)

There are pros and cons to both. Mostly it's in devleoper's hands and not the hardware. They are both exceedingly capable for the average gamer.

Go where the games are (or atleast the ones YOU like to play). Unfortunately that is not currently the PS3. Only time can change that, not debate.

@Lou

Like previously mentioned I feel that this has gone on for long enough myself (many many posts ago actually).

I merely soldier on for the reasons mentioned in that very same post. If there's nothing to counter or add I wouldn't bother to respond.

@Trezzer

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Does that mean that there'll be no more excuses next year if/when the PS3 hasn't caught up?

What do you mean with catch up? Currently they about on par... EA believes they have only used about 20% of the PS3's potential. Some of their ported games may be of a bit less quality overall (well at least Madden it seems), some are virtually equal (Need for Speed Carbon) or improved (Final Night Round 3).

I am willing to strike a deal, after next christmas we hold a poll here on which console is actually more powerful. I lose I never criticize Microsoft's gaming products and related marketing hype on public forums ever again, you lose you do the same with regard to Sony.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jan-2007 at 07:45 PM.

@MikeB

You keep the same rhetoric and repeating the same nonsense over and over even when things have been proven different. If I considered your word to be worth anything I'd do it.

And yes, they're largely on par with multiplatform games, but Gears of War (in particular) is graphically far ahead of anything on PS3 so far. Need for Speed Carbon, Fight Night Round 3, Call of Duty, Tony Hawks P8 etc. are generally considered to be superior on 360. I don't doubt we'll see gorgeous titles on PS3 eventually, but so far 360 is ahead and the question is whether it will continue to stay there.

Last edited by Trezzer on 07-Jan-2007 at 07:56 PM.

There are two things inherent to this thread and many others that I don't get.

People's insistence to:

a) set completely artificial deadlines for things (say next Christmas)
b) lack of patience when it comes to debating issues

I think this thread has been plenty informative. We are all learning from it. Sometimes we get things wrong, we get corrected and the discussion evolves and hopefully at least some of the participants and their knowledge evolve too. Of course it doesn't change what PS3 or Xbox 360 is (unless someone who can change them hears the feedback which here is unlikely), but it does change our understanding and knowledge of them which can lead to more informed decisions down the road.

So what if its 41 pages long? The more the merrier. As long as people are bringing something to the table, even if having to rehash issues, why not.

I also don't think we need to set any deadlines for PS3 to beat Xbox 360. If it beats it by Christmas fine, if two years down the road, still just as fine. If never, still fine. All I want, personally, is informed discussion about what the merits of the consoles are, nothing more. IMHO.

@jtsiren

If there was a mod system I would rate your's as insightful. Personally I have more than enough patience, I started this thread mainly because so many people in PS3 threads or US media seem to claim XBox 360's "victory" prematurely.

I think Christmas 2007 will be more than enough time, sure the Amiga took a bit longer to prove itself as the more powerful gaming platform and course the PS3 will be pushed even further beyond christmas.

Other interesting news:

Sony meets shipping target:

"DALLAS: In an important early look at the pivotal late December holiday sales season, Sony Corp. said it met its goal of shipping 1 million PlayStation 3 consoles to North America in 2006 despite ongoing production problems with the still hard-to-find video game system."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/07/business/NA-FIN-Sony-PS3-Sales.php

So if we look at units shipped as well as sold the Sony has outperformed Microsoft during its launch-year for North America! This bodes well for the European launch.

@MikeB

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Sony Corp. said it met its goal of shipping 1 million PlayStation 3 consoles to North America in 2006 despite ongoing production problems with the still hard-to-find video game system."

When Sony are saying it themselves it's still likely to be shipped from factory and not into retail. So I suppose it lives up to their internal targets, but as long as it's not shipped to retail or sold it's not that impressive. What it does mean, however, is that it should shortly be possible to find plentiful supply no matter where you are.

And yes, hopefully the European launch will be better even if rumours say that PS3 might be pushed back to December in Europe. I find it highly doubtful and so far it's nothing but a rumour

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If there was a mod system I would rate your's as insightful. Personally I have more than enough patience, I started this thread mainly because so many people in PS3 threads or US media seem to claim XBox 360's "victory" prematurely.

I don't see it as much as a 360 victory as the PS3 not living up to expectations - expectations set by Sony themselves. I don't doubt that PS3 will do well by the brand name alone. The really interesting question is how big a share it can grab this time around.

Last edited by Trezzer on 07-Jan-2007 at 09:17 PM.

NPD numbers for Nov 1 to Dec 24 is that in the US:

MS sold 2.0M 360's
Nintendo sold 1.8 Wii'
Sony SOLD 750k PS3's

360's are plentiful on the shelves.
People still camp out for shipments of the Wii.
PS3's are plentiful on the shelves.

So we know MS as no production problems.
Nintendo is selling all they can ship.
Sony's current supply (1M units) has more than met demand (750k units). There should be plenty of units for Europe and hopefully more titles (and better) than the uninteresting (as a batch) set of launch titles the US got.

I don't know the shipped vs. sold for Japan's PS3, but the Wii is outselling everything there as well (except the DS).

http://wii.ign.com/articles/752/752824p1.html

@MikeB

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Having never owned a PS2 nor original XBox I cannot judge this, however I know there are nice PS2 games available

Definitely there are nice games for the PS2 there are for most every console. The point was that while Sony claims to have the theoretical highest performing hardware this doesn't seem to translate directly into the reality of the game itself.

As for a dead console. Yes there are little to no Xbox games being made and the console isn't being made. From the business's point of view would you argue that your company should continue to make a console that loses money on each sale and sells poorly VERSUS a console that makes your business a bit of cash and sells at a faster clip? I'd think not. As for Sony it's good that the PS2 is making them cash it'll offset the losses associated with the PS3. If I was Sony I'd argue push it as long as it's profitable. The only question on Sony's behalf is how much does the PS2 canibalize the PS3 market? Alternatively these are radically different price points. The market may sustain both Sony consoles for quite a while. PS2 vs Wii and PS3 vs 360 might be one way they view the market.

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The plans for a new PS3 based multimedia device does not imply adding a TV Tuner and CableCard adapter to the PS3 accessory list would be impossible.

No one said it wasn't technically feasible. However, Sony announced that's not the way they were going. They could change their mind afterall it wouldn't be the first time Sony announced vaporware for their gaming console.

@MikeB

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Play.tm: "Reports have emerged of late that some developers are bemoaning the storage limitations of the dual-layer DVD format employed by the Xbox 360, a situation which will be highlighted further when Sony launch the Blu-ray equipped PS3 later this year. For their part, Microsoft insist that developers are more than happy with the existing DVD standard."

This again?

DVD can make for a long game. Oblivion at 200+ hours of gameplay and about 3/4 of a DVD is one example.

GoW is 1/2 a DVD. You think it to be a short game. But doubling gameplay likely wouldn't fill the DVD. You reuse textures, sounds, etc. Space is saved even if gameplay length is doubled.

What factors make for smaller games? Better programming makes more efficent use of the console with smaller source code. Download ability allows some gameplay to come off of the net and be put on the HD without having to take up DVD content. Advances in compression mechanisms allow code to take up less disc. One such thing is procedural systhesis. Roboblitz is a great example. They were able to replace 90+% of their textures. Reducing 480MB of textures into 3MB and being able to push their game off of DVD and under the 50MB requirement for Xbox Live. Check out Roboblitz and compare it to other Unreal 3 Engine games. I think you'll find it to be impressive when you know those textures would take up 2 Amiga High Density Floppy discs.

@Lou

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PS3's are plentiful on the shelves.

I have my doubts about that. On Manhattan the PS3 is still hard to find (I couldn't find one, not that I looked that hard). When I was at Fulton in Brooklyn, I saw some PS3's at some independent shops, but they were also charging some "independent" prices, like $799 with 1 game for the PS3 60 GB.

Amazon still list the PS3 as Sold Out and routes you to other sellers.