@Lou

I believe those (Nov 1- Dec 24) estimates were for North America as a whole, not just for the US. Please note that's about 2 weeks of extra XBox 360 sales, I think the Wii most likely outsold the XBox 360 in North America using the same timespan.

The Nintendo Wii seems to be gaining on the XBox 360 extremely fast:
http://vgcharts.org/

@BrianK

Quote:

Oblivion at 200+ hours of gameplay and about 3/4 of a DVD is one example.

Sure you can even play Pacman all day long. Long games like Civilization or Dungeon Master came supplied on a few Double Density diskettes. XBox 360 and PS3 games will get larger and larger in terms of data used. We are only just beyond the 1st year the XBox 360 launched and already Blue Dragon comes supplied on no less than 3 DVDs. The more storage space the better.

@BrianK

But again, what was the issue with sitting 3' from your TV? I still have no answer on that one. It's nice to see how all these people do calculations to show you what "you need".

But how reasonable does it sound that you can go from 26" to 50" and you won't see a difference (apart from being a bigger screen)? Do note, roughly twice the screen size, means more than twice the pixel size (perhaps 4 times bigger?).
To me it sounds as if you don't need 720p on a 26" TV, but I have heard no complaints about that.

Let's just assume these calculations are correct, for the sake of the discussion, still there is more to 1080p than discussed in the links you gave me. The higher the resolution, the less risk of moire and other artifacts. I see no mention of that.

@MikeB

Quote:

Sure you can even play Pacman all day long.

Either you have no idea about the massive scale Oblivion has or you're just talking BS.

Quote:

XBox 360 and PS3 games will get larger and larger in terms of data used.

And the point has been made again and again that procedural synthesis helps keep size down extremely well. Roboblitz is, as said before, an excellent example.

Quote:

already Blue Dragon comes supplied on no less than 3 DVDs

And there's not really any reason for it to do so since the FMV and in-game graphics are pracitally indistinguishable. FMV should be banned from games this generation. Plain and simple.

Quote:

The more storage space the better.

In theory, yes. Practically: Look at what you love to use as an example: Amiga. Have a look at State of the Art or 9 Fingers and see what you can do in extremely little space. Technology has evolved since then, but poor development tools + tight schedule tend to result in unused textures and models included on final games and lack of optimization. Why optimize when you have enough room? Well, that's sort of against what we as Amigans like, isn't it?

XNA helps developers keep track of what is necessary for the game which in turn helps keep the size of games down.

@jiyong

Quote:

But again, what was the issue with sitting 3' from your TV? I still have no answer on that one

It depends on your AV setup if there is or isn't issues. Can you perhaps spell out better what you are looking for?

@MikeB

Quote:

@BrianK Quote: Oblivion at 200+ hours of gameplay and about 3/4 of a DVD is one example. Sure you can even play Pacman all day long. Long games like Civilization or Dungeon Master came supplied on a few Double Density diskettes.

If you seriously believe that 200 hours of Pac-Man brings as many complexities as 200 hours of Oblivion you've got a screw loose somewhere.

Quote:

XBox 360 and PS3 games will get larger and larger in terms of data used. We are only just beyond the 1st year the XBox 360 launched and already Blue Dragon comes supplied on no less than 3 DVDs. The more storage space the better.

Blue Dragon is the exception. And perhaps this is the example why the 360 isn't doing well in Japan. It looks like the Japanese market perfers to watch movies in the middle of their games. Drop the FMV from the game and look at actual gameplay I bet it'd be close to a single DVD.

On the Xbox 2nd gen games were often better looking and used less space because the developers learned how to better optimize things. Silent Hill 2 is smaller then 1. Mech Assault 2 is smaller then 1. Most all of the 360 launch titles were under 1/2 of the DVD. When the Xbox was released many games were under 2GB in size. In 2005 we see games around 4GB in size. Will the average game see this same rate of growth in the next 4 years? Only time will tell. But, with the advent of procedural synthesis we're seeing much more visually complex games fit into smaller spaces. A good read might be on XNA promoting smaller games .

One bad thing right now is Blu-Ray media process is more expensive then the DVD process and as such the developers, or Sony, will have to take less profit per game sold. This is bound to equalize at some point, assuming Blu-Ray is the hands down winner over HD-DVD.

@BrianK

You are the one that said there would be issues with the screen going from 10' to 3', remember? So why do I need to spell it out?

B.T.W., really nice there is no comment on moire and other artefacts.

@jiyong

Quote:

You are the one that said there would be issues with the screen going from 10' to 3', remember? So why do I need to spell it out?

I dug back in pages and found this which I said and you seem to be asking questions about. 'Don't forget there's other 'issues' when you move from 10' to 3'. One is the screen the other is the audio.'

Screen issues -- the screen you are viewing should be sized for your room and seating position. If you have the 50-60" screen that's in the ideal range of the 10' seating either 720p or 1080p is going to work. Now if you choose to move your viewing to 3' away from the screen you may see some improvement from 1080p it simpy depends on the factors involved. Now if you have a lower resolution item that you are viewing the larger the pixel spacing will be and the more likely you will be to notice graininess in the images. Thus, sizing the screen and understanding it's uses is important.

Quote:

B.T.W., really nice there is no comment on moire and other artefacts.

Until I understood what you were trying to get at I felt it inappropriate to respond. So instead of being a jerk a question asking why I ignored it may be a better approach. How these relate can be found from most any AV site.

Last edited by BrianK on 08-Jan-2007 at 04:00 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

The Nintendo Wii seems to be gaining on the XBox 360 extremely fast:

Oh, definitely. The Nintendo Wii has so far been a huge surprise. For all I know, it might win this round (i.e. console generation).

It would be great too if it did - gameplay truly winning over technical advances. Nintendo is known for their innovation and I think it benefits us all in the long run.

I love Nintendo Wii. I don't know how much longetivity it might hold for myself personally, but playing especially Wiisports Golf was a huge blast.

I'm still worried because many Wii titles with the notable exception of Zelda have been receiving poor reviews and the Wiisports/Play games offer only limited appeal in the long run. I think this needs to improve a lot to keep its success going, but I'm quite sure it will improve.

***

Still, I don't think comparing sales figures is really all that important, at least it isn't for me. Many things factor in on the success of a system - many Amigans would probably agree that popularity doesn't make something best.

I know Xbox of last generation was far from the most popular console, but I do know it was easily the best technically and consistently brought out quality gaming experiences (of the regular kind) superior to those of its lesser competitors.

There's something to be said of a console when its launch title Halo is often quoted as beating all (including all later) PS2's shooters (and my experience is the same, although I haven't played all PS2's shooters so my view is incomplete).

It isn't always that you have to wait for a generation or two to see if a machine is capable of beating the competition - and when this happens, it is notable and tells you something.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 08:55 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 08:54 AM.

@BrianK and @MikeB

Quote:

Quote: XBox 360 and PS3 games will get larger and larger in terms of data used. We are only just beyond the 1st year the XBox 360 launched and already Blue Dragon comes supplied on no less than 3 DVDs. The more storage space the better. Blue Dragon is the exception. And perhaps this is the example why the 360 isn't doing well in Japan.

I don't think anyone should claim (nor do I think anyone here really is claiming) that more capacity wouldn't be good. Obviously if it makes developers lazy or adds to loading times then that's bad, but generally more capacity is good and this is where the PS3 clearly has the upper hand. No denying that.

OTOH, so what if Blue Dragon comes on three DVDs? I doubt its disc swapping all the time when playing it. I don't think this will really make or break any game or any console, because using several discs you can still create huge games with lots of FMV if thats your thing. PS3 will obviously do it more conveniently, though.

I do think DVD is probably more than enough for many games.

I usually dislike the discussion of a "sweet spot" when it comes to consoles, because it ultimately comes down to compromise. Clearly Xbox 360 made a compromise when using DVD instead of, say, HD-DVD. PS3 didn't make this compromise. PS3 did end up paying dearly in delay as well as console price, so clearly the Xbox 360 makers had a reason. Whether or not, in the long run, these opposite decisions will benefit or hurt either console remains to be seen.

Technically, this is an area where the Xbox 360 compromised and clearly is lesser than the PS3 in the eyes of a gamer like myself who dislikes technical compromises. I still don't think, though, this would change anything for me if other things still continue to be as they currently are.

Other thing where Xbox 360 had merely an after-thought compared to PS3 is obviously backwards compatibility, as discussed early in the thread. Xbox 360's is pretty laughable compared to Sony who even maintains cable compatibility. But then, I usually get rid of all my last generation games when a new generation arrives so this is not a consideration for me. I do know it is a consideration for some and gladly award PS3 the point on this one.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 09:09 AM.

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou Quote: PS3's are plentiful on the shelves. I have my doubts about that. On Manhattan the PS3 is still hard to find (I couldn't find one, not that I looked that hard). When I was at Fulton in Brooklyn, I saw some PS3's at some independent shops, but they were also charging some "independent" prices, like $799 with 1 game for the PS3 60 GB. Amazon still list the PS3 as Sold Out and routes you to other sellers.

You send me the money up front and I'll export to you as many as you want in either model. Tax in my state is 5% and shipping will probably cost ~$50. A gratuity would be much appreciated.

I bought 2 a week before Christmas and sold one on eBay and one in a raffle at work.

...or I can walk into any Walmart or Best Buy and take pictures of them on the shelves...

Your choice.

Interesting marketing speeches from Sony and Microsoft:

Sony points out that they have beat PS1, XBox 360 and even best selling PS2 launch figures for North America.

Microsoft claims to beat the PS3 over the long run, and as predicted earlier within this thread announced the company sold 10.4 million XBox 360 units (to retailers, not consumers), though an estimated 8.34 million units were sold to users at the time of the announcement.

If we investigate and compare XBox 360 launch figures:

XBox 360 shipment in 3 markets was 1.5 miilion units:

- For North America 900,000 of which 670,000 were actually sold to consumers.
- For Japan 100,000, of which 86,750 were actually sold to consumers.
- Fore Europe 500,000, of which an estimated 300,000 were sold to consumers.

Total estimated sold in 2005 is thus around 1.050m in 3 markets.

PS3 shipment in 2 markets of an estimated 1.5 million units.

- For North America 1,000,000 of which an estimate of at least 800,000 units have been sold to users. (definite NPD figures out 11th of January)
- For Asia around 500,000 of which we know 446,750 have already been sold to consumers in 2006 for Japan (Taiwan and Hong Kong figures are unknown).

Total estimated sold in 2006 is thus around 1.250m in 2 markets.

Conclusion: Both launches were impressive, but Sony seems to have outperformed Microsoft's launch.

There are way more than 1 million Blu-Ray players (currently estimated to be around 1.5 million globally) in consumers hands already completely overshadowing the global amount of HD-DVD players in consumers hands and on the market today.

IMO if not for Microsoft the format wars would already be over, with high definition consumers greatly benefiting from this in the long run. If there was democracy amongst the major players there wouldn't have been a format war a vast majority of device manufacturers and content providers are behind Blu-Ray.

Standalone Blu-Ray players have come down in price, this will probably continue with mass production of Blu-Ray units for the PS3's global launch.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:13 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jan-2007 at 12:10 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

IMO if not for Microsoft the format wars would already be over, with high definition consumers greatly benefiting from this in the long run. If there was democracy amongst the major players there wouldn't have been a format war a vast majority of device manufacturers and content providers are behind Blu-Ray.

Only reason, IMHO, HD-DVD got a chance was the earlier release of its players at a cheaper price point and Sony botching the initial Blu-ray releases with poor transfers that disappointed early-adpoters who then went to HD-DVD. HD-DVD scored an early victory in the early-adopter market mostly because of these reasons, with the HD-DVD add-on for Xbox adding a bit to the mix.

This may very well be the only victory HD-DVD gets and its saviour, if any, will be the release of universal players and discs, which are both coming apparently. We may see both formats around for a long time to come (just look at the number of obscure formats any off-the-shelf DVD player supports these days), but I myself would probably also guess that if we have to pick a winner it is Blu-ray.

PS2 did apparently benefit DVD in the early days and PS3 does benefit Blu-ray obviously, as does Xbox with its add-on benefit HD-DVD to a lesser extent.

Myself I do consider movie playback a bonus for a console and I do understand many people appreciate it a lot, but for my setup I am only interested in getting the best games machine. If it plays HD movies too fine, great, but that won't be the deciding factor.

Edit: As for the democracy part, the markets will decide. It isn't like the people behind Blu-ray were giving their technology out there for free to benefit all man-kind, it is a business to all involved and thus business competition ensued. Apparently nobody was willing to give in enough. Obviously it would have been better to have a single format, but the parties had differing business interests. We could also say competition has benefited both formats (and the end-users) since there is pressure to improve player and disc quality.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 12:49 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 12:47 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 12:32 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I usually dislike the discussion of a "sweet spot" when it comes to consoles

I absolutely agree, of some things you can never have too much of. Be it harddrive space, media space, processing power, etc.

There has been a lot of criticism regarding the PS3's price point, but as can be judged from actual sales the price point currently seems to be just about right (Supply vs Demand). Production costs will come down eventually and for the long run also the PS3's price will come down and this with the benefit of pretty amazing minimal specifications.

As Microsoft seems to promote the XBox 360 as a HD content download player, IMO they should have released the XBox 360 with an upgradable harddrive, like Sony has. 20 GB is going to be a pretty severe limiting factor in regard to dealing with high definition video downloads, one high definition movie, for instance a full lenght, full quality 2 hour HD movie is already way beyond the available space on the harddrive by a large margin, let alone if you want to install some game content along with it.

Interesting quotes:

European launch still on track

"Jack Tretton, chief executive of Sony Computer Entertainment, has once again re-stated Sony's European launch plans for the PS3, confirming that its on schedule for March.

"We're equally strong in all three markets. We can't afford to sacrifice any one of them," Tretton said."

"Sony & Midway Announce PS Store Collaboration"

"Sony's PlayStation 3 has also picked up the CES Best of Innovations Award for 2007, PC World's 20 Most Innovative Products Award, Sound and Vision's Editor's Choice Award and a Digital Innovation Award from the Digital Entertainment Group."

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:29 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:04 PM.

@MikeB

Xbox 360 does have an upgradeable hard-drive in the sense that Microsoft can release new drives that people can swap to their machines easily, but people can't easily upgrade themselves with off-the-shelf drives (as I think PS3 allows).

I probably wouldn't need a new harddrive for the Xbox 360 because I only use it for saved games currently, but Microsoft coming out with a new accessory on sale wouldn't surprise me.

As for the price point, I would certainly pay 600+ euro for the PS3 if it were superior to the Xbox. I'm disappointed that this isn't a clear-cut case as I expected it to be.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:13 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

new accessory on sale

Currently as a HD-DVD player the XBox 360 already consists of 4 components with lots of cables involved in connecting them to each other and to power supplies (add Wi-Fi and it looks even worse), add another external component to that I think that wouldn't look very appealing to the average household.

The XBox 360 core with its wired controllers isn't appealing at all, I like it very much that with the PS3 wireless controller you can easily turn on the console like you do with your TV remote control.

@MikeB

Quote:

Currently as a HD-DVD player the XBox 360 already consists of 4 components with lots of cables involved in connecting them to each other and to power supplies (add Wi-Fi and it looks even worse), add another external component to that I think that wouldn't look very appealing to the average household.

The Xbox 360 harddrive is already detachable, Microsoft could come out with one that replaces it. It attaches to the machine without any visible cabling.

Wi-Fi for Xbox 360 also attaches neatly to the back of the console (or the back of the HD-DVD drive if you have that).

Only HD-DVD is truly external if one chooses to have that (as well as the power brick obviously, but that is usually not visible).

I agree with the point about multiple boxes not being attractive.

Quote:

The XBox 360 core with its wired controllers isn't appealing at all, I like it very much that with the PS3 wireless controller you can easily turn on the console like you do with your TV remote control.

Obviously one can do this with the Premium Xbox 360 as well. Who buys the Core (or why you would use it in comparsion to twice the price PS3) is beyond me.

Edit: Just for clarification: Core can use wireless controllers too, and the accessory harddrive (currently only 20 GB) can attach to it as well. Only thing that can't be upgraded in Core to match Premium is the DVD drive's tray plastic that is visible when the tray is closed.

OTOH, when these things are bought for the Core separately the price usually becomes insane compared to a Premium purchase, but the Core does allow sometimes to mix and match some things to get a reasonable package (say, you don't need Premium's component cable anyway but get the VGA instead, do want wired controllers because you hate batteries etc. you could save a bit by getting just the external hard drive accessory; other purpose is also to allow a cheap entry-level model for those who can't or won't buy the whole shebang at once... but other than that I see very little point in getting the Core).

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:55 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:41 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 01:33 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

The Xbox 360 harddrive is already detachable, Microsoft could come out with one that replaces it. It attaches to the machine without any visible cabling.

But that's not possible with the core version.

Any PS3 can be easily upgraded with any 2.5 inch SATA harddrive, it can be done within a couple of minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4GbkVJI9m4&mode=related&search

Quote:

Who buys the Core (or why you would use it in comparsion to twice the price PS3) is beyond me

You are right, but the PS3 Core with 20 GB harddrive, Blu-Ray drive and wireless controller is less than twice the price of a XBox 360 Core though.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jan-2007 at 02:23 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @jtsiren Quote: The Xbox 360 harddrive is already detachable, Microsoft could come out with one that replaces it. It attaches to the machine without any visible cabling. But that's not possible with the core version.

Eeerh...? Yes it is.

I have done it myself (not for myself though). The left side panel of Core comes off revealing the same HDD connector as on the Premium. Then you just click the harddrive in place and voila, Core looks and works like Premium (minus the tray plastic). Done in less than a minute, no tools required. It is a benefit for PS3 for sure to be able to use off-the-shelf drives though!

Weirdly, the Core might become more attractive if Microsoft does release a larger hard-drive since people could buy a "headless" Xbox 360 Core and the larger hard-drive separately. (Assuming Premium would still ship with 20 GB.)

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jan-2007 at 02:12 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

have done it myself (not for myself though). The left side panel of Core comes off revealing the same HDD connector as on the Premium.

Oh thanks I stand corrected, I didn't know this. I only have a XBox 360 Premium here. Very comforting. makes the Core system more interesting than I thought it to be.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jan-2007 at 02:16 PM.