@jtsiren

Quote:

You can get into true next-gen gaming with Xbox 360 Core at $299

I agree. The $299 is a nice price point - for a low cost next gen entry system. They should try to lower the premium Xbox360-2 (with the HDMI + HD) to this price (they could afford this now, if they wanted). The PS3 is still my favorite (now, that HD-DVD is pretty much dead - see the CES coverage), playing HD movies on the Xbox360 it is pretty irrelevant, but is covered pretty nicely by the PS3 (for me this is one reason for the PS3).

I am still considering a Xbox360 as a second (or third or whatever) system. I'm not to much into Gears of War, but Lost Planet and Halo3 are two arguments. But I won't pay $400+ just for these two games. I still will go with the PS3. Motorstorm, GT5, Fatal Inertia and VT3 (well, the later also for 360) and some other titles (even Resistance) are more convincing (but that's my personal taste).

BTW. There's one thing I don't get about the Wii. A $299 XBox 360 premium would hit the Wii, IMO. No matter if MS talks about competition or not. The Wii is more competition to the 360 then they want to make us believe. Selling about 3M machines within 1 month is competition. They should better start to take them serious. But again, back to my doubts. Nintendo should have released it for $199. and a full HD enabled Wii-2 for $299. This will be tough now (but with their success, who knows. Nintendo might have cash in their pockets now). OTHO, as long as the PS3 will cost $600, there's no reason for MS to lower the price, and the $300 segment is still available (who buys a X360 core anyway ?)

I still prefer the PS3 as a complete (but expensive?) over all package. I think all three (and if you'd like; the PS2 on the entry level) justify their existence. I think the market offers a wider spectrum now for either level of entertainment. And that's a good thing. MS should simply admit, and acknowledge where they are. They are simply not at the top end (no matter if gfx performance is or not).

And, like in any business, the quantity is reciprocally proportional to the price (that said, PS2 out selling all other consoles, e.g. and is not surprising, that Wii sells so good).

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@Jorge

Quote:

You mean, like Nintendo are the good guys and would never clone ?

They've brought most advances to console gaming of all I'd say. Just go back and have a look at what they introduced for every machine. Sony (and the rest) have been playing catch-up technologically ever since.

And they were sued because of an exisiting implementation in the PC space - not console space. Unlike Sony they just decided to pony up the cash and continue using it.

Quote:

Sure, IPTV is original, but location free video (how long is that available, 1 or 2 years now ?) is not ?

Location free video is new in the console space, but 1. it's not really tied to consoles - they're just one of many clients (the same can be said for IPTV of course) and 2. I belive Slingbox were first and better.

Quote:

Must be the reason why Apple is selling iTV for $299,00 now.

Location free TV and IPTV have extremely little to do with TV (not iTV).

Quote:

Who cares. I get game on it. I care less about anything else. Nobody claims Gameboys mem cardridges are used for any thing else.

It wasn't really a mocking of UMD movies but of the usual Sony lies.

@Jorge

Quote:

And what now, that the iPhone is out ?

I'm sure MS are thinking "Well, that wasn't nice while it lasted."

Seriously, though, Zune is a part of another strategy on MS' part and may become relevant again later. For now it's deader than dead ...

@Jorge

Quote:

The $299 is a nice price point - for a low cost next gen entry system. They should try to lower the premium Xbox360-2 (with the HDMI + HD) to this price ... am still considering a Xbox360 as a second (or third or whatever) system. I'm not to much into Gears of War, but Lost Planet and Halo3 are two arguments. But I won't pay $400+ just for these two games

This Christmas there were many sales on the 360 in the US. One that I've mentioned before is Microcenter who sold the 360 Premium for $399 - $100 rebate or $299. So your request to have a premium bundle at that price point has already been here. If you really want a 360 watch out for those sorts of sales, they are likely to ocurr again. Yes an HDMI version would be nice but when one comes out current 360 owners will likely upgrade and you'll be able to get a non-HDMI version for even cheaper.

Quote:

Nintendo should have released it for $199. and a full HD enabled Wii-2 for $299

A bit hard to do both at the same time. But for $259 the Wii should have included a DVD player. Though it's not hurting sales that it didn't.

New Japenese figures:

Quote:

"Sony sold 534,336 of the consoles between their debut in Japan on Nov. 11 and Jan. 7, Enterbrain said."

Quote:

By contrast, Enterbrain reported that Nintendo sold 1.14 million units of its less expensive new game console, the Wii

Quote:

Microsoft's Xbox 360, which has had limited success breaking into the Japanese market, has sold 311,053 units since arriving in December 2005, Enterbrain said.

If correct, that would mean for the first week of January in Japan:

Nintendo Wii: 140k
PS3: 77,586
X360: 11,803

Not bad for the PS3 and Nintendo Wii.

@MikeB

Quote:

If correct, that would mean for the first week of January in Japan: Nintendo Wii: 140k PS3: 77,586 X360: 11,803 Not bad for the PS3 and Nintendo Wii.

Actually comparing the Xbox sales to the 360 in Japan it's clear Microsoft has improved their position in Japan. Not impressive as an overall market penetration in Japan but Microsoft has indeed made more headways into the market then they did with the Xbox.

@BrianK

Quote:

Actually comparing the Xbox sales to the 360 in Japan it's clear Microsoft has improved their position in Japan. Not impressive as an overall market penetration in Japan but Microsoft has indeed made more headways into the market then they did with the Xbox.

If they continue with titles like Blue Dragon and Lost Planet they certainly will. But they are yet to reach 495,750 XBoxes, like they did last time (it completely lacked killer games for the Japanese). At the current increased sale rates, it will take them about 4 months.

Last edited by MikeB on 10-Jan-2007 at 04:29 PM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Location free TV and IPTV have extremely little to do with TV (not iTV).

Sure, they have their own shades of grey, but the basic idea is usually the same. Some kind of HD recording and playback later. The signal source is kind a different. Use a media server, a DVD/BluRay or online. But the result is you have some kind of DB front end to manage your video/audio content. Sooner or later, all these solutions will provide similar functionality.

Location free + a possible integration into the PS3 is IPTV. And the services are pretty similar what MS offers. Media server = location free server. IPTV and PS3 HD recording (which is not available yet) is the front end.

What they don't tell you though, that the HDs are way to small to do any serious HD video on either of theses things. Also, the bandwith of current internet is way to low - this will become even worse, when the IPTV (or whatever) becomes more widespread. That might work as long as a couple of people try to download a 500MB movie, but will reach it's limit when millions start to download GBs of HD content. I doubt it will be possible to realtime-stream 1080(p/i) over the internet at anytime soon.

About the cloning...I think that's just what's happening. Everybody does it. Saying MS is the original inventer, err, is a bit odd, though. XBox live might have been something they have really pushed, but I can't recall what they did actually start (I mean inhouse, not just buying an idea/company and claiming it their own).

_________________
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µA1-MK2/G3/933/R200/CMI8738
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@Jorge

Quote:

Motorstorm, GT5, Fatal Inertia and VT3 (well, the later also for 360)

Fatal Inertia is coming to 360 too along with the other PS3 Koei title.

Quote:

The Wii is more competition to the 360 then they want to make us believe

Bill Gates stated in an interview that they view Wii as their greatest competitor.

Last edited by Trezzer on 10-Jan-2007 at 07:14 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 10-Jan-2007 at 04:37 PM.

@Jorge

Quote:

Sure, they have their own shades of grey, but the basic idea is usually the same. Some kind of HD recording and playback later.

No. The TV is not about PVR. It's about getting content from iTunes Movie/Music Store to your TV and nothing else.

Quote:

this will become even worse, when the IPTV (or whatever) becomes more widespread.

Guess what: Fiber is being rolled out. Soon 10 and 100Mb connections won't be all that uncommon. People were critical of the lack of modem in the original Xbox because modems were so common at the time. They could have scaled down but would have had to compromise a lot on Xbox Live.

Quote:

What they don't tell you though, that the HDs are way to small to do any serious HD video on either of theses things.

I guess what you haven't figured out is that neither TV nor 360 are supposed to be servers.

Quote:

doubt it will be possible to realtime-stream 1080(p/i) over the internet at anytime soon.

That's why 480p and 720p is being used for now.

Quote:

I can't recall what they did actually start

It all depends on how you look at it. Xbox Live is an example though - it's linked with their Passport which bombed in the 90s but which is finally starting to make a bit of sense.

Just look at their experimental development, though, and you'll see lots of interesting stuff - a lot of it never makes it into final products though - and I'm not going to say they don't rip off things. I mean just look at Vista for crying out loud.

The main force behind technological advancements in the console real is Nintendo - they blaze the path and others try to follow - sometimes with more luck. Much like Apple is Microsoft's R&D lab.

@Trezzer

Quote:

That's why 480p and 720p is being used for now.

I just downloaded new Gears of War multiplayer maps, it took longer than I expected. Little over 200 MBs in well over one hour... If they are serious about delivering HD video over the internet they need to do a serious server upgrades. My gf is playing MS Pacman-trial right now, finally a XBox 360 game she may learn to love...

Last edited by MikeB on 10-Jan-2007 at 09:46 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 10-Jan-2007 at 09:34 PM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

It's about getting content from iTunes Movie/Music Store to your TV and nothing else.

A definite play by Apple to push their products. But since AppleTV is cheaper then a phone it may fly. Well the iPhone.

Quote:

Much like Apple is Microsoft's R&D lab.

Though I'll have to give the Microsoft R&D lab some credit they failed to copy the Playskool look of the MacOS. The whole translucent jelly look made me want to puke. I'm glad Apple has moved out of that stage of development. Isn't the # of Apple Development shops < # of people trying to write Windows Viruses?

@MikeB
Quote:

I just downloaded new Gears of War multiplayer maps, it took longer than I expected. Little over 200 MBs is more than one hour... If they are serious about offering HD video over the internet they need to do a serious server upgrade

You're right to blame Microsoft it is their store and thus their fault. But some of this you simply have to blame on the whole newness of online content. This Christmas time the largest online store - iTunes - had issues because LOTS of people were trying to download music at the same time. Microsoft has had issues matching up server power vs estimated usage. I'm sure in a few years these 2 leading online content providers will get much better at that match up. Once Sony gets their media online it'll be interesting to see what issues they have with downloads.

@MikeB

Quote:

Little over 200 MBs in well over one hour...

I think I grabbed them in 10-15 minutes - which is also kind of slow.

I think they'll roll out a server bandwidth upgrade soon. Before November I had massive speeds when downloading. Of course that was before the movie store was introduced. I don't think they were ready for the success they've had with it so far.

@Trezzer

Quote:

No. The TV is not about PVR. It's about getting content from iTunes Movie/Music Store to your TV and nothing else.

I see things a little bit more abstract. From a black box approach, there is no difference between a media server or say cable TV. I don't care about the protocol (the one is IP the other one a proprietary multichannel streaming protocol (digital TV, e.g.). One is realtime, the other one, too (if the line is fast enough).

That said, iTunes (and the like) is a digital receiver, while the other one is a digital set top box or even just a plain analog TV set. A set top box, if it buffers video is a PVR. The "signal" is different (and can be analog or digital encoded). All have some kind of decoder build in (the easiest is a NTSC decoder, more complex could be MPG2 or what else).

Fact is, the output is a moving picture. All IP solutions need to download, buffer and stream these data before you can watch it. TV does that on the fly (on multiple channels but cannot provide on demand).

That said, yes, I compare all these solution to each other. Sooner or later they will share more then you'd think.

A region free decoder is a TV signal to IP stream converter. Installed properly, that would be a video on demand server (which, e.g. could only be used on small area network = home ?, same applies to Media Center PCs).

One important thing ATM between TV and streaming solutions is interactivity. But again, this will merge into TV sooner or later, too.

The need for iTV or IPTV comes from the failure of the TV channels to provide on-demand video. IPTV cannot provide this yet, but opens a new intermediate market until this goal is achieved.

Quote:

I guess what you haven't figured out is that neither TV nor 360 are supposed to be servers.

The term server is a bit blurry here, too (IMO). Usually a client does not store data. All these solutions do, however. If made available thru a network, the client becomes a media server. Usually you'd prefer to download the video content into you home once and watch from different locations. If the XBox360 IPTV stores the movies on the local HD but provides a MediaCenter interface to watch it on the notebook, the 360 becomes the server.

If a PS3 can be attached to a location free server, and stores and encodes streams to its local HD it becomes a PVR (if it stores downloaded contents, it is a IPTV). If you watch that very same video on your PSP the PS3 becomes the media server.

See how close together everything is, actually ?

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@Trezzer

Quote:

I think I grabbed them in 10-15 minutes - which is also kind of slow.

Hmmm, my internet bandwidth is about 60 MB per minute, so that wasn't the bottleneck. I will perform more in depth testing tonight trying to download a couple of GBs (Max 5 downloads pending) from their server and when I wake up see how far the download has progressed. This time I didn't clock the time, as I wasn't expecting this to take so long.

I guess local server traffic will be a bit lower during the night. Later I will do some testing during the day.

@Jorge

Quote:

See how close together everything is, actually ?

While I agree that there are technical similarities, the implementations and intentions vary wildly.

Quote:

The term server is a bit blurry here, too (IMO). Usually a client does not store data. All these solutions do, however.

Yes, they do store data (at least temporarily). In the case of TV it's purely as a means of caching content. I'm guessing this is mostly to have smooth playback even when a wireless connection isn't optimal. Perhaps later on it will have additional features besides that.

In the case of the 360, currently movies are also stored temporarily on the drive for a time limited period, while tv series can be stored permanently (but also deleted and fetched again from the Microsoft server). Eventually the plan (Microsoft's plan - not necessarily mine) is that all homes should have a central server for media and data that can be shared between PCs, Xbox 360, Media Center and Zune (and whatever else they may think of). If this is handled transparently it could be quite tidy and I may even consider getting one if it's implemented via UPnP or similar and works cross-platform.

As for video on demand - that's pretty much what the iTunes and Xbox stores deliver. It's not all content that's available, but as someone who hasn't really watched TV in years I don't really care either way.

@Trezzer

Quote:

While I agree that there are technical similarities, the implementations and intentions vary wildly.

Well, sure. Implementations will always vary. I think this is a good thing. People are still individuals and have different taste and behaviors (and preferences).

As for the intentions. I am not sure if they are so different. The whole field is still open and I doubt everything is clear yet. It will need some prototype implementations and eventually there will evolve a product (or multiple products). Nothing what was announced today is a solid product, yet. Customer feedback and a little bit of evolution will be necessary.

Quote:

Eventually the plan (Microsoft's plan - not necessarily mine) is that all homes should have a central server for media and data that can be shared between PCs, Xbox 360, Media Center and Zune (and whatever else they may think of). If this is handled transparently it could be quite tidy and I may even consider getting one if it's implemented via UPnP or similar and works cross-platform.

I think the idea is great. I just would prefer an open standard based on protocols and not proprietary products, which would allow you to combine whatever server (not necessarily a Windows PC or a Mac - but kind of a black box) to whatever client. I think after Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD this will be the next big fight. Game consoles will play a role, because they are the most powerful set top boxes.

Quote:

As for video on demand - that's pretty much what the iTunes and Xbox stores deliver. It's not all content that's available, but as someone who hasn't really watched TV in years I don't really care either way.

I wouldn't call that "video on demand" just yet. It will evolve into it, when the bandwidth will allow instant download and streaming - at the time when TV and IPTV will merge again.

One though might be interessting: Will games sooner or later transform into some kind of interactive TV ? Consoles will die but will be integrated into the multimedia end points and will be compatible to each other much like e.g. DVD/BluRay share a common description language ? Within the next 10, 25, 100 years ?

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@Jorge

I agree the implementations are different but points are the same. Get AV content to the end user.

One good example Lionsgates only puts out Blu-Rays. So the 360 is screwed that way. However, Lionsgates is making their SD and HD content available via the 360 store. The end result is the same for the user they get to watch The Descent in the comfort of their living room.

Open standards will be great. Unfortunately with studioes in the mix they want protections and open standards can't provide that to them.

Several things according to the AppleTV specs (see below) it can be used to stream video. No doubt from a Mac running their front row media center clone attempt. I Actually think you could hook this to an Amiga over wireless.. This is really not much more than the xbox 360's functionality and there are already products that stream over wifi for video via UPnP standards, like Linksys's media center extender and the D-Link's MediaLounge product which cost is around $200 (of course no hard drive for storage).

I don't also see how the 360 is screwed. Yes Microsoft already produced an HD-DVD drive that us a USB add-on... There are many 3rd party blu ray dvd external drives being announced for the PC, adding blu-ray support wouldn't be difficult. Especially if it becomes the standard, however I am not counting HD DVD out at this point.. This is closely following what happened with beta and vhs (and I am not arguing that beta wasn't the better format).. BluRay isn't the holy grail or some magical device, it's just a very high density dvd drive. Yeah the PS3 has it, but 3rd party drives are popping up. I am betting on the multi-layer dvd's supporting all formats on one media very soon..

We have three big battles coming up for video/audio content this year:
Apple's iTunes Store vs everybody else. Who will win the downloadable content store game..

Also who will be the big Set Top Box Hardware winner, will it be Microsoft, Apple, Tivo, Comcast, AT&T, Sony, and the list goes on.. I am including PVRs in this because TiVO now is offering downloadable content as well.

Third is who will win the big gaming war. It's obviously they will all offer downloadable content.. The question is who will you buy the most from.. Will people choose movie and game downloads over actually buying the media?


FYI:

AppleTV specifications

Processor and storage

Intel processor
40GB hard drive2 for storing content locally
Up to 50 hours of movies and TV shows3
Up to 9,000 songs4
Up to 25,000 pictures5
System requirements
Mac or PC
iTunes 7
Mac: Mac OS X v10.3.9 or later
PC: Windows XP Home/Professional (SP2)
AirPort Extreme, Wi-Fi 802.11b, 802.11g, or 802.11n wireless network6 (wireless video streaming requires 802.11g or 802.11n), or 10/100BASE-T Ethernet network
Ports and interfaces
HDMI (video and audio)
Component video
Optical audio
Analog RCA stereo audio
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
USB 2.0 (for service and diagnostics)
802.11n wireless networking6
Built-in IR receiver (works with included Apple Remote)
Environmental requirements
Operating temperature: 32° to 104° F (0° to 40° C)
Storage temperature: -40° to 185° F
(-40° to 85° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3,000 m)
Video
Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile
Audio
Audio formats supported: AAC (16 to 320 Kbps); protected AAC (from iTunes Store); MP3 (16 to 320 Kbps); MP3 VBR; Apple Lossless; AIFF; WAV
Photos
Photo formats supported: JPEG, BMP, GIF, TIFF, PNG
TV compatibility
Enhanced-definition or high-definition widescreen TVs capable of 1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz

Last edited by DonnieA2 on 11-Jan-2007 at 12:55 AM.
Last edited by DonnieA2 on 11-Jan-2007 at 12:41 AM.

@DonnieA2

Quote:

I don't also see how the 360 is screwed. Yes Microsoft already produced an HD-DVD drive that us a USB add-on... There are many 3rd party blu ray dvd external drives being announced for the PC, adding blu-ray support wouldn't be difficult

The 360 was only screwed from the standpoint it can't play the Blu-Ray directly, which is the only format that Lionsgate has announced it's providing besides DVD. Yes you are correct the 360 can be used as a Media Extender playing pictures and videos from another system. It may be possible to play the Blu-Ray across the network to the MCE box.

Also, didn't Microsoft at one time allude to the possibly that if Blu-Ray wins then they'll make a Blu-Ray USB drive similar to the HD-DVD? HD-DVD works as an add-on certainly Blu-Ray would too.