@MikeB

The only way it made sense in was the fact that it gave the OS4 team a reasonable reason to target a single hardware platform until the OS is finished. However, we all know that the sides of that story involved them working on that platform's firmware, then having to work around various "nice" features of both chips used, et cetera. The reason for it was also to ensure quality and that full documentation to the hardware is given to the devs. We saw how both of these points evolved, with VIA's "exhaustive" documentation. That contract only made sense in the following context: Eyetech having a solid base of hardware and Amiga Inc. being with one foot and all toes of the other in the grave.

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@Tigger

Terrasoft intended to sell 600 MHz Teron CX based boards (for a while they listed them at their shop), they cancelled this. The earliest of A1 boards, the AmigaOne SE was also based on this design, these early boards costed 580.00 with the ability to run AmigaOS4 later on.

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Tigger Terrasoft intended to sell 600 MHz Teron CX based boards (for a while they listed them at their shop), they cancelled this. The earliest of A1 boards, the AmigaOne SE was also based on this design, these early boards costed 580.00 with the ability to run AmigaOS4 later on.

Mike stop skipping over the point. Terrasoft was going to sell the Teron CX's for lots cheaper then Eyetech sold them. Why, because they werent going to make tons of profit as Eyetech did on the crappy Teron boards. When the Teron boards performed terribly as anyone who'd tried to use the MAI chips knew they would, all the other companies that were going to sell them, found other solutions except for Eyetech, because you had to buy from them to run OS4. The entire Eyetech contract should have been thrown out when they picked the Teron board, it may no sense once Eyetech wasnt making there own board. Giving them a temporary exclusive so they would design a custom board that plugged into a 1200 made sense, allowing them to exclusively sell a COTS board, especially a bad one made no sense at all.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@MikeB

Quote:

Do you want me to look into my crystal ball, look into the future and tell you if he is right or wrong it was a mistake the AmigaOS4 project ever was started, that AmigaOS4 will die a sudden death, AmigWorld.net dies, the platform is already dead as he claims or something? And if I could, how would I know this wasn't due to self-fullfilling prohecies and doomsday thinking, rather than a real lack of potential?

This is a complete strawman argument. Nobody is saying those things you list, you are just trying to dismiss the valid argument by muddying the water with silly rhetoric (unintentionally or intentionally, who knows). I'm sure you are not saying OS4 hardware is not out today because of Seehund's "propaganda".

Many people were quite capable of seeing the flaws of the Amiga Inc. licensing policy, it did not require a crystal ball. The logic was a flawed then, as it is now. I thought so then - I signed the petition - and I think so now.

You keep saying it was the only way Amiga Inc. allowed OS4 to be developed? Maybe so, maybe so... or who knows if they would have changed their minds if Hyperion would have pushed them enough back then instead of publicly supporting the policy? But even if we just place the responsibility of that to Amiga Inc.'s corner, it still doesn't make the policy any less flawed.

No matter who came up with it, IMHO the mandatory licensing policy was clearly a failure, at least as far as the Amiga community interests are concerned. Maybe it helped Eyetech to rule the small market for a while? Failure because it has hindered OS4 porting and marketing already (devs confirm this) and failure because the original goals such as quality control for hardware clearly were not met. I do not understand how anyone could see any good in this history.

I can't wait for O4 to be freed of that burden. I hope they succeed. Every passing day is a day OS4 looses something waiting for that hardware with license to appear. Hyperion is the one really good thing to come out of the present-day Amiga partnership, I just wish they wouldn't have aligned themselves behind these policies (and the MAI fiasco) back then... that was a mistake, but they certainly make up for it by delivering the product they have.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @AMiGR Quote: Again, I see that you did not reply to any *points* of his post, just went personal instead I have, on multiple occasions including to some points in this thread. What "point" do you want me to address yet again?

The points, questions and issues raised in post #167, the post you chose to reply to, of course! You have not addressed any of those.

You were asked to explain and/or substantiate the claims you made.

Some examples:

You said you think the current HW licensing scam "made sense". You were asked to explain this, how it was more beneficial than the alternative, i.e. NOT having a compulsory HW licensing/bundling/dongling scheme.

You were asked to disclose your personal interest, if any, in your current promotion of the PS3.

You were asked to explain what you meant by "current re-negotiations".

You were asked to quit making up crap about what I think and about what I have said.

Et c.

Instead, you posted an incoherent diatribe about how great the Teron Mini is, how bad MooBunny is, how much Francis Charig agrees with you on how bad MooBunny is, how bad AmigaWorld.net has become, how bad Genesi is, how bad I am, how much "Shoe" or whoever in the AmiGBG mgmt agree with you that I'm "ranting against AmigaOS4" and thus your claim contradicting actual fact must be true, and so on and on.

Speaking of points, I give you a full 10 points on your creative quoting. Movie poster copywriters everywhere take a bow for your post.

"the whole AmigaOS4 project is a complete waste of time, money and enthusiasm"
See, he's ranting against AmigaOS4!!!!

:D

(Before someone goes and think MikeB has made a proper quote; no, I don't start a sentence with a small letter. There's something important missing.)

"democracy is the worst form of government"
- Sir Winston Churchill

Quote:

Do you want me to look into my crystal ball, look into the future and tell you if he is right or wrong it was a mistake the AmigaOS4 project ever was started, that AmigaOS4 will die a sudden death, AmigWorld.net dies, the platform is already dead as he claims or something?

I asked you to quit lying about what I have said. Please.
Of the things you wrote here, I have only claimed that the AmigaOS is dead -- unless the needed changes are done.

Quote:

And if I could, how would I know this wasn't due to self-fullfilling prohecies and doomsday thinking, rather than a real lack of potential?

I haven't said anything about either Superstition or Potential. To simplify to the extreme for your benefit, I have said it should be made possible to sell AmigaOS, instead of making it impossible. Real Potential means less and less when one chooses to make it more and more difficult to sell one's product.

Funny you should bring up crystal ball gazing and confusing cause and effect. You were asked to explain and back up exactly those things from your last post.

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My answer would still be, a definite "No!", it doesn't need to be all for nothing, even nomatter what happens in the future. People are already enjoying AmigaOS4 and it has been and still is fun for many people to follow the OS's progress. Without AmigaOS4 there may not have been AmiGBG shows these last couple of years, which Seehund himself also attended. A good example how the Amiga community as a whole benefits from AmigaOS4 efforts.

I have not claimed that many of the people who bought "AmigaOnes" aren't still enjoying the little that they have. That's not a problem. The problem is that they are likely to make up the only possible target demographic for AmigaOS4+ under the current circumstances. I have not argued against the existence or development of AmigaOS4. Please quit building strawmen.

Now imagine what e.g. AmiGBG could have been like if AmigaOS had been for sale, for hardware that more people could be interested in buying. When I was there (2004) it was more like a Church of Scientology bake sale (CoS chapter of Alaska...) than a computer fair, and that was even while "AmigaOnes" were still for sale. User group meetings around the time of Commodore's demise used to be more vibrant and have more new products to see and buy. So you got another opportunity to talk #### about people behind their backs at AmiGBG, well, good for you. This might hurt your ego, Mike, but discussing you with anyone else didn't even occur to me.

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Oh, bother.

In other news...


The 65nm Cell is now in production - I wasn't expecting it to appear for another 6 months.

That's good news as it'll cut PS3 production costs sharply, big chunks of silicon like RSX or Cell cost a lot of money. There'll also be a sharp reduction in power, partly due to 65nm requires less, partly due to a different internal power supply system in the Cell. That'll further reduce costs in cooling and the PSU.

Don't know if it'll be ready for the European launch but it certainly bodes well for a price cut later in the year.

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Whyzzat?

@minator

65nm Cell is a good thing. Are you sure it'll make it into the PS3? Reports I saw on the 65nm Cell was that it was announced and at 6Ghz speeds but not yet in full production.

Assuming Sony is ready with the PS1/2 software emulation layer perhaps that hardware will come out, saving further hardware costs. While doubting a price cut this year they did one in Japan already so you never know.

@MikeB

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

@AMiGR IMO the AmigaOne served its use as a development board, AmigaOS4 has matured nicely and I am looking forward to its continued development. IMO to have mass availability of the beta pre-release could easily have resulted in logistical problems, support being completely overwhelmed by bug reports, complaints, etc and still the OS needs more polishment.

Quit rewriting history.

Only some of the first "AmigaOne SEs" were ever sold as "developer boards". It served very poorly as a developer board; software developers have enough to worry about just developing software without having to be bothered by dysfunctional hardware. We can only speculate on how much AOS4 has been delayed by poor hardware and the need to find and adapt another type of firmware alone. The following unavailability of this poor hardware and inexistence of other licensed options didn't exactly help speed up AmigaOS development and sales either.

You simply do not need to put restrictions on the hardware market for AmigaOS4 "and all future versions" (sic!) in order to have a small number of OS4 beta testers. But having a small number of beta testers was not the intention of the "AmigaOne" adventure, so you can drop that act anyway.

Quote:

Personally I hope Seehund will be proven wrong, which is IMO entirely possible, hopefully this by having AmigaOS4 available for the Sony PS3, like Amiga Inc and Hyperion both stated publically they would like to see themselves.

What AInc and Hyperion claim they "would like to see" doesn't mean "it will happen", rather the opposite if one is supposed to learn anything from experience. A PS3 port would be great, in any event it would mean that OS4 at least ran on good hardware. Though for it to make any difference (instead of just seeing AmigaOS still being dead and unsold, but on better hardware) I think that the licensing requirement must be dropped. The PS3 isn't any different than Macs or whatever other good hardware in that respect.

Last edited by Seehund on 30-Jan-2007 at 09:54 PM.
Last edited by Seehund on 30-Jan-2007 at 09:54 PM.

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Oh, bother.

I just went to see Apocalypto, interesting but if I knew it was this violent I would have taken my gf to another movie.

@ Moobunniers/ANN warriors

1) No, I don't think AmigaOS4/AmigaOne was a bad idea. You can speculate as much you want, if the AmigaOS4.0 would even exist today. Considering all the things I know, I would say probably not.

2) My interests in the Sony Playstation 3 have been addressed earlier within this thread, I've had my eyes on the Cell and thus the PS3 for several years. I see lots of potential in the product, also especially for AmigaOS4.

3) IMO AmigaOS4 on the AmigaOne has advanced into a nice solution, as was even confirmed by Ars Technica's review. The Micro-A1 at lower prices would today have had some limited potential together with AmigaOS4. And yes the endless attacks did have an effect on Alan Redhouse, Eyetech and even Mai Logic. And no, Alan Redhouse wasn't the criminal you want to portray him to be, IMO much of the propaganda may be leftovers from Pegasos vs A1 crusades, at least in general A1 owners are generally less critical with regard to Alan/Eyetech's efforts than alternative hardware advocates.

Last edited by MikeB on 30-Jan-2007 at 10:22 PM.

@Seehund

Quote:

Only some of the first "AmigaOne SEs" were ever sold as "developer boards".

I said, IMO meaning nothing else than "in my opinion". All boards shipped with a developer pre-release I personally never viewed as being just ordinary end-user products. That's my personal perspective, like it or not. For instance OSNews.com is mostly targeted at technical readers, who could possibly help advancing the AmigaOS platform forward.

Quote:

I think that the licensing requirement must be dropped. The PS3 isn't any different than Macs or whatever other good hardware in that respect.

Very unlikely as long as a 3rd party is using another commercial company's IP. Of course if Amiga Inc becomes the full owner of everything OS4 related and does all further development themselves, no license agreements would be required. But if 3rd parties are involved in using another company's IP, then naturally licenses and contracts are very common. This goes with regard nearly all commercial efforts, be it QNX, Symbian, ZetaOS, Windows, MacOS, etc and even open source projects like Linux have licenses which limits freedom for companies to do with the OS just anything they want (companies usually prefer to built-in advantages they don't want to share with rival companies, that has to do with spending lots on R&D, while another company just takes it for free).

@MikeB

Quote:

@ Moobunniers/ANN warriors

If you are not prepared to have your views challenged, you are not in the right place. This is a FORUM.

Quote:

1) No, I don't think AmigaOS4/AmigaOne was a bad idea. You can speculate as much you want, if the AmigaOS4.0 would even exist today. Considering all the things I know, I would say probably not.

Oh, quoting "the things you know" again... Sigh...

Quote:

3) IMO AmigaOS4 on the AmigaOne has advanced into a nice solution, as was even confirmed by Ars Technica's review. The Micro-A1 at lower prices would today have had some limited potential together with AmigaOS4. And yes the endless attacks did have an effect on Alan Redhouse, Eyetech and even Mai Logic. And no, Alan Redhouse wasn't the criminal you want to portray him to be, IMO much of the propaganda may be leftovers from Pegasos vs A1 crusades, at least in general A1 owners are generally less critical with regard to Alan/Eyetecg's efforts than alternative hardware advocates.

So, hang on a second. You mean for ONE second that you think that MAI Logic were innocent? Excuse me Mike, it wasn't ANYONE'S attack on MAI Logic that killed them, it was the fact that their product was not used by anyone in the industry, as everyone who tried gave up. Yes, Alan tried, and for this we are thankful but stop portraiting him as some philanthropist of some sort, he was in this for the money. And you don't even have an AmigaOne yourself, first of all.

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@MikeB

Quote:

Very unlikely as long as a 3rd party is using another commercial company's IP. Of course if Amiga Inc becomes the full owner of everything OS4 related and does all further development themselves, no license agreements would be required. But if 3rd parties are involved in using another company's IP, then naturally licenses and contracts are very common. This goes with regard nearly all commercial efforts, be it QNX, Symbian, ZetaOS, Windows, MacOS, etc and even open source projects like Linux have licenses which limits freedom for companies to do with the OS just anything they want (companies usually prefer to built-in advantages they don't want to share with rival companies, that has to do with spending lots on R&D, while another company just takes it for free).

It does? Who told you that you need a license from Microsoft to use Windows on your motherboard? If it is using supported standards and chipsets, Windows runs on it. Same with QNX and Zeta. OS X is NOT licensed to ANY third parties, it's a product ONLY available for systems sold by Apple Computer Incorporated. And I have spotted a TINY problem with your equation, incidentally the same other people who try to justify this scheme make. All of the above products (apart from Zeta) have markets and niches, they have developers and momentum. Windows is the single most used OS in the market. YOU CANNOT expect a hardware manufacturer to *PAY* you to use your product if there's NO profit to be made out of it, and UNTIL (and if) OS4 gets big there is no chance that there ever is going to be.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

Yes, Alan tried, and for this we are thankful but stop portraiting him as some philanthropist of some sort, he was in this for the money.

I have "news" for you any commercial company intends to make a profit. People can scream high and low about this, but that the way the industry works.

Alan saw potential in AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne within the embedded market. It was high risk and daring. Sadly it didn't work well for Alan, despite business trips to China and such.

Quote:

And you don't even have an AmigaOne yourself, first of all.

I am not a developer nor a beta-tester, I was mainly interested in owning the finished product as a hobbyist and product reviewer. Already addressed earlier though.

@MikeB

Quote:

I have "news" for you any commercial company intends to make a profit. People can scream high and low about this, but that the way the industry works. Alan saw potential in AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne within the embedded market. It was high risk and daring. Sadly it didn't work well for Alan, despite business trips to China and such.

Wow! Why exactly did you just repeat my point? Also, what exactly would the potential of an expensive MiniITX board with a chipset no-one else in the industry was using (note that MANY tried) in the embedded market? It would have never worked out.

Quote:

I am not a developer nor a beta-tester, I was mainly interested in owning the finished product as a hobbyist and product reviewer. Already addressed earlier though.

Newsflash: Neither is 90% of the A1/OS4 market base. So, you'd better make up your mind: Was the A1 good enough for end users or not? I mean, you can't say that it was and then say that you don't have one because it's not.

Last edited by AMiGR on 30-Jan-2007 at 10:48 PM.

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Pretty much all of us want AmigaOS 4 on PS3. That want doesn't belong to anyone - nobody "wanted it first" or "wants it most" and there's no correct way to go about wanting it.

Be quiet, be noisy, be upbeat or slag Amiga Inc off to high heaven. Until Amiga deliver something we can buy, there is no default response that they deserve from any of us. Personally, I'm giving them nothing till then. No faith. No charity.

Give us the product we want to buy and the arguments stop - without winners or losers. Amiga Inc are 100% in control of this situation.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 30-Jan-2007 at 10:48 PM.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Who told you that you need a license from Microsoft to use Windows on your motherboard?

There are restrictions and yes Windows does have commercial/end user licenses involved. You may know there have been issues with regard to dual boot BeOS systems in the past. I think it's very unlikely Apple or Sony can just bundle Macs or PS3s with Windows.

QNX can be used for non commercial purposes on a PC. You cannot just sell PCs with QNX installed, etc.

The world is so much more complicated than you think.

@MikeB

Possible limitations you list apply to OEM versions of Windows (and stuff like the BeOS incident, which was Microsoft at its worst, are pretty old - recent legal actions have put a lot of that behind), anyone can buy the retail version and install it anywhere.

If only it were so for OS4 (at least for supported hardware), now there is no more retail than OEM available. One or the other would be good. Both would be great.

As for labeling people based on sites they have used in the past, why not reference yourself as a Moobunnier as well... you used to be quite active there.

Last edited by jtsiren on 30-Jan-2007 at 11:09 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

There are restrictions and yes Windows does have commercial/end user licenses involved. You may know there have been issues with regard to dual boot BeOS systems in the past. I think it's very unlikely Apple or Sony can just bundle Macs or PS3s with Windows.

You're comparing apples with oranges here, **YET** again. I have been around long enough to know VERY well that there are licenses involved. Making a motherboard capable of running Windows doesn't take any Microsoft licenses. *Bundling* a system with *Windows* does. The BeOS OEM issue was *NOT* one of making hardware compatible with BeOS, that was a Microsoft *OEM* trying to sell systems with BeOS, to which Microsoft objected.

Barring the recent hardware certification scheme (which does NOT stop you from using hardware), a manufacturer is NOT forced to go through Microsoft to make a system Windows compatible, he can use the standards and write drivers for everything else. Hell, *I* could write Windows drivers if I wanted to. You pay Microsoft to certify those drivers, if you want to. It's up to the OEM to purchase the boards and a Windows licence and sell them together or, indeed, the user.

Let's compare this to the Amiga situation: To make AmigaOS4 run on your board, you have to go to Hyperion for them to write a HAL and drivers for it, with your help or not, after you get a licence to use AmigaOS4, and will then have to sell complete systems with it. AmigaOS4 is not and will not be available for boards you buy off the shelf, in a boxed version.

Quote:

QNX can be used for non commercial purposes on a PC. You cannot just sell PCs with QNX installed, etc.

Apples and oranges Mike, apples and oranges. QNX can be used on any PC you like, the hardware doesn't have to have a magical licence that suddenly makes it run QNX. If you use QNX for commercial purposes you buy a licence, or a site-license if you are a company, or whatever other licensing scheme QNX Software can provide you with. After that, it's up to you to use ANY of the compatible hardware.

Quote:

The world is so much more complicated than you think.

Indeed, you seem not to know that that well, as seen from the above.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

Newsflash: Neither is 90% of the A1/OS4 market base. So, you'd better make up your mind: Was the A1 good enough for end users or not? I mean, you can't say that it was and then say that you don't have one because it's not.

Yes and no. The AmigaOS4 beta pre-release was a good option for those who want to use AmigaOS as their primary system. But IMO beta-tester and developers deserve priorty in times of shortages. If there were many thousands of boards available back then, I may have bought one at the time. Or maybe not, as I wanted to review the most polished version and I was hoping for a nice Amiganified out of the box solution. IMO much better reviewable than a do-it-yourself, just ordinary PC type system.

Just my stay in and trip to Switzerland for 'OS4 on Tour' coverage costed more than an AmigaOne, hotels were really expensive as there was an Art fair going on at the time. In California I bought a 200 dollar lens for video-camera to better cover the AmiWest event. I have spend quite a bit of money on AmigaWorld.net promotion and banner supression at AmigaRing (still something like 50 dollar left in the account, I am unable to refund), and yes I bought the AmigaDE SDK and joined the Amiga Club, Ilmenau, Bath, Gothenburg, France sadly didn't work out as expected ending up a couple of days in Paris instead of l'Hermitage, etc, etc, etc , etc.

So please think more deeply and read more carefully when I write: "IMO beta-tester and developers deserve priorty in times of shortages"!

@MikeB

Quote:

Just my stay in and trip to Switzerland for 'OS4 on Tour' coverage costed more than an AmigaOne, hotels were really expensive as there was an Art fair going on at the time. In California I bought a 200 dollar lens for video-camera to better cover the AmiWest event. I have spend quite a bit of money on AmigaWorld.net promotion and banner supression at AmigaRing (still something like 50 dollar left in the account, I am unable to refund), and yes I bought the AmigaDE SDK and joined the Amiga Club, Ilmenau, Bath, Gothenburg, France sadly didn't work out as expected ending up a couple of days in Paris instead of l'Hermitage, etc, etc, etc , etc.

Have I ever said that you didn't do anything, or that you haven't put any money into the promotion of the Amiga? Quotes, please, and ones that start at the start of the sentence quoted and end at its end, unlike that Seehund quote.

Quote:

So please think more deeply and read more carefully when I write: "IMO beta-tester and developers deserve priorty in times of shortages"!

No, I do get what you're trying to say with this... But it doesn't paint a better picture either, it just means that you do not use the Amiga anyway, yet tell people how they should think about certain issues.

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