@BrianK

Quote:

US numbers you give for actual sold are truly estimated sold

I prefer independent sales data, for example at first it was believed Nintendo sold more Wii's in the US than they actually did (Recently I stated at AmigaWorld that I hoped/expected more Wii sales for North America, I think you were the one getting upset by this harmless statement as will become clear if you read on).

The console was sold out in 2006 and Nintendo claimed to have shipped 4 million units worldwide, so analysts thought they sold 2 million units in North America. Nintendo rebuked and people got confused due to much lower NPD figures for 2006, but more recently Nintendo confirned they in reality shipped 3.19 million units worldwide in 2006.

Wedbush Morgan Securities' (WMS) analyst Michael Pachter:

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after the revelation of NPD figures: "There was a discrepancy between the number of Wii units claimed to have been shipped by Nintendo to North America - approximately 2 million - and the cumulative sell-through measured by NPD

Nintendo before revealing their later figures:

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The figures do not include Canadian sales or those to "mom and pop" retailers, and are among the numerous data points used by analysts to measure the health of the video game market. "Our numbers in terms of what we have shipped is definitely well above that (NPD) number. What NPD does not account for is the product that is in transit," said Nintendo spokeswoman Perrin Kaplan, who added that the company had a "robust" year.

NPD figures rather pointed towards: 1,272,500 Nintendo Wii's sold in North America for 2006, so this explains the hundreds of thousands missing Nintendo Wii's for 2006.

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Saying the Wii won't cross over to owners who own a PS3 is simply false.

But I didn't say that.

Last edited by MikeB on 13-Feb-2007 at 08:42 PM.

@Trezzer

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I don't know where you're looking, but here component cables are dirt cheap and HDMI cables not as cheap.

Here components are cheaper then HDMI. Various places - Target, Best Buy, Circuit City have under $20 component sets and $25 PS3 sets by 3rd parties. HDMI about the cheapest one can find is $35 so about 50% higher in price.

@BrianK

Then you shouldn't provoke this answer from MikeB.

All MikeB did was pointing out you were comparing the wrong figures.
If you take the shipped numbers for the 360, you should also take the shipped numbers for the PS3 (1.8 million). Plain and simple.

Perhaps next time you could really open your eyes before you post?

@Trezzer

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I don't think there's anyone who isn't aware of the difference between digital and analogue.

I think it's worth pointing out to PS3 owners who want to get the most out of their system. And no, not everybody knows these details (you are not alone at these forums) and there's nothing to be ashamed of if they don't. Please calm down.

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I think only fanboys bother to make a point of it, though.

OK if you say so, you're the expert.

Actually I don't consider myself a fanboy, just a Cell/ PS3 enthusiast. I like the product very much but mainly due to the Cell processor being in there, but if there would at some point be better options available to suit my needs I won't stick to Playstations or Sony.

It's like a tool I want or need to use. If I like a certain type of hammer, IMO it doesn't mean I am a hammer-fanboy, if another company makes a hammer even more suitable for me I will use that instead.

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I don't know where you're looking, but here component cables are dirt cheap and HDMI cables not as cheap.

HDMI cables are cheap to make, suitable cables are already available at 5 bucks. With regard to component cables it may be better to spend more on a higher quality cable, as proper isolation of the analog signal is needed.

Last edited by MikeB on 13-Feb-2007 at 09:33 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 13-Feb-2007 at 09:11 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Actually I don't consider myself a fanboy, just a Cell/ PS3 enthusiast. I like the product very much but mainly due to the Cell processor being in there, but if there would at some point be better options available to suit my needs I won't stick to Playstations or Sony.

It wasn't aimed directly at you even though you repeated the line.

It's just really simple - if you have a good vga or composite cable, the transition to HDMI will provide very little difference in visual quality. The main advantage with the picture quality is as you correctly pointed out: if you have noise sources nearby, your signal won't be influenced by them. If your cables are properly shielded and so on the difference will be really minimal.

Saying that there's a major difference between e.g. VGA and HDMI in is not necessarily correct. And you can certainly deliver 1080p/60 via VGA - after all PCs have been doing it for years.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Yeah, that's what I thought too until recently - and for the same reasons you do. Some of the scalers out there are quite simply insane, though. i guess you pretty much have to see it to believe it.

I see one flaw in this even if you have a totally "insane" scaler ready to be send to a mental institute, if the scaler would be better than genuinely native results by any means, then why wouldn't TVs first downscale 1080p content to 480p (losing lots of details) and then back up to 1080p? This simply doesn't make sense...

If 480p upscaled to 1080p is really better than native 1080p, would '240p (320x240) upscaled to 1080p (1920x1080)' be even better than '480p upscaled towards 1080p'? If so, this could potentially save us a lot storage space! You may want to try to reserve a patent for this.

Just kidding.

The only reason why upscaled 480p content could possibly look any better than 1080p native output would be if the actual 1080p content / codec / recordings suck.

If you think I am wrong then please try to explain the reason why you think so. How is a nutty scaler supposed to upgrade DVD towards genuine Blu-Ray quality?

@jiyong

Quote:

All MikeB did was pointing out you were comparing the wrong figures. If you take the shipped numbers for the 360, you should also take the shipped numbers for the PS3 (1.8 million). Plain and simple

Look 2005 the Xbox 360 sold out everywhere in the USA. Saying 25% were sold as in sitting on the shelves over a 2 month period is silly. It's much closer to reality to count, at least in the USA, shipped=sold. Again it's for that period in time, late 2005 to 2006.

Now if one was using #s in late 2006. You're talking a different factor. Now we see shipped doesn't equal sold. If comparing 2006 numbers, intead of launch window to launch window, then I certainly agree that one better try to use numbers that reflect purchased as in truly sold.

Now the comment began as an example of how Sony puts their own foot in their mouth. Here's another example.. Jack Tretton the USA head of Sony offered $1,200 for anyone that can find a PS3 on the shelf for more then 5 minutes. He seems to be oblivious that shipped != sold because we have an abundance of PS3s here.

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Perhaps next time you could really open your eyes before you post?

WTF! First the post wasn't to you so don't be rude. Second the post wasn't rude to anyone in particular your actions were out of place and uncalled for. Third, you are welcome here but be polite.

Last edited by BrianK on 13-Feb-2007 at 09:54 PM.

@BrianK

Now you are confusing me. A few posts before you sort of admit you don't know where that 25% was. As you said yourself, they could be in shipping. SHIPPED != SOLD

Edit:
Sheesh, someone is short tempered here. As we say in our country, if you throw the ball, expect it to be returned. You came up with the yawn, which was out of place, so expect the ball back. No need to start using the F word here. All I did was play around with that yawn of yours. And since this is an open forum, there is no guarantee that you are discussing with one person alone.

Last edited by jiyong on 13-Feb-2007 at 10:15 PM.

@jiyong

Quote:

A few posts before you sort of admit you don't know where that 25% was.

MikeB came up with the 25% number. I questioned it's accuracy. If he can show us where this unsold but received by vendors 25% stock was then great I'll be glad to use his numbers. The case remains that in 2005 the 360 was selling as fast as it could be produced. It wasn't until June/July when Microsoft announced they had caught up in shipping and were building stock. If they weren't building stock in Dec. it's pretty unlikely this 25% wasn't paid for.. Or perhaps even on hold for an agreed bundle. I'm sure those users who pre-paid at Gamespot that waited into early 2006 would have love to have had the rumored 25%. They didn't cuz it didn't exist.


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You came up with the yawn, which was out of place, so expect the ball back.

The yawn was about the point not about MikeB. If MikeB took it to mean him personally I apologize. I respect MikeB his opinions and his ability as a person to defend his own points. Seems that you do not give MikeB the same respec. It appears you thought he needed help with my vicious personal attack, which didn't happen. Did you really think he needed a mother hen?

Last edited by BrianK on 13-Feb-2007 at 11:46 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 13-Feb-2007 at 11:45 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 13-Feb-2007 at 11:39 PM.

@MikeB

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The only reason why upscaled 480p content could possibly look any better than 1080p native output would be if the actual 1080p content / codec / recordings suck.

It would certainly help.

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If you think I am wrong then please try to explain the reason why you think so. How is a nutty scaler supposed to upgrade DVD towards genuine Blu-Ray quality?

...or Genuine HD-DVD Quality (TM) (R).

I can't blame you for being sceptical or even dismissive. I've had the exact same attitude as you - till I saw some of the filters in action. I haven't seen the combined result, but a friend of mine has. He can spot most issues with displays, players etc. by fasting his eye on a random image on a screen, so when he's seen the hi-def media running side by side with upscaled and filtered 480 content I take his word for it.

You may recall an earlier article (I believe it was in the previous thread) that basically said the same thing: People saw these outputs side by side and generally guessed wrong when they had to say which one was SD and which one was HD.

I can dig up some links on some of the techniques in use if you're genuinely interested.

@Trezzer

As for upscaling. Seeing Mpeg2 vs VC-1 Blu-Ray there appears to be a difference. Some of those early Mpeg2 Blu-Ray had issues in various places where the upscaled DVD did not. I've seen it and one can find various early reviews of Blu-Ray wondering why the issues that the DVD didn't have. Issues are due to encoding and perhaps mixing. Now this wasn't ever scene on every Blu-Ray movie but there seemed to be a handful. Likely growing pains of the new technology. If users are moving from $10-$20 DVDs up to those $30-$40 Blu-Rays they are going to want to see a significant improvement else they will question why spend twice the money. Luckily newer Blu-Rays with VC-1 encoding show themselves, as a whole, to be better then early Blu-Rays and DVDs.

The question will invariably go back to HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray and in VC-1 encoding they are nearly comparable. Many reviewers can't pick which one is better. Leaving the advantage to Blu-Ray in size per layer. which is important for us computer users as we love the big storage. It's not there today but the cost/MB in 6-12 months will be reduced for Blu-Ray and make the average joe computer users desire it more.

@MikeB

Advance orders for Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3 console have broken all records, with high street stalwart Woolworths revealing it has been taking one order every 20 seconds during the past week in the UK. Demand is looking to outstrip supply.
**
Sony looks to be selling all they make, which is to be expected. Too bad they can't make more. Also it now appears Sony will no longer make the Cell but outsource. Additional rumors are a 45nm Cell in late 2009 and another PS3 price drop then.

@BrianK

Quote:

As for upscaling. Seeing Mpeg2 vs VC-1 Blu-Ray there appears to be a difference. Some of those early Mpeg2 Blu-Ray had issues in various places where the upscaled DVD did not.

Yes. I'm fully aware of those issues. The comparison wasn't done with flawed HD content though.

@BrianK

Quote:

Sony looks to be selling all they make, which is to be expected. Too bad they can't make more. Also it now appears Sony will no longer make the Cell but outsource. Additional rumors are a 45nm Cell in late 2009 and another PS3 price drop then.

About meeting demand...Anybody aware what numbers we are talking here ? Can you imagine how much 500K for one day is - on a global scale (and that's just for UK alone, AFAIK) ? Just as a comparison, if we'd sell 25k gambling machines - a year (!) - that's a lot (let alone, if one would sell more the 100K Amigas a year). I'd guess the PS3 is still one of the most complexest machines out there (exceeding a high end PC, I'd guess). The Wii is relatively simple in comparison, and even Nintendo can't keep up the supply (I would still guess their production capacity is not way beyond the PS3, though).

The 45nm Cell sounds interesting. I still hope for a PS3 workstation sooner or later, but with ongoing Cell development, there is hope for other Cell based machines. Hope that PS3 Linux will fully support the OpenGL/RSX incl. shaders some times (maybe I'm dreaming), that would nice.

_________________
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XE/G4 (broken 7450/800)

PS3 pricing confirmed in Finland: 680 EUR. Ouch! (Compared to Xbox 360 Premium 380 EUR or 280 EUR for Core). No word yet if the lesser model will be available at all.

P.S. Still not a bad price for a Blu-ray player compared to stand-alone pricing, but just as a console quite the difference.

Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 12:09 PM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Saying that there's a major difference between e.g. VGA and HDMI in is not necessarily correct. And you can certainly deliver 1080p/60 via VGA - after all PCs have been doing it for years.

Like I said 1080p / 60FPS over component isn't supported by the PS3, therefore I believe it's important to point this out to potentially dissapointed consumers.

Of course everything depends on the involved equipment, but VGA is usually slightly better than component, both are analog though. The PS3 is futureproof by being the first product to ship with a HDMI 1.3 port, which provides more than twice the digial bandwidth as compared to earlier HDMI / DVI implementations. HDMI 1.3 supports deep color with up to 48-bit color depth.

Also the digital information can travel over longer distances than analog cables without losing signal quality.

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 12:51 PM.

This black HDMI Xbox 360 would probably get that money I saved for the PS3, if the rumour turns out to be correct. The lesser noise being a major motivator, the black might also look better. HDMI is a bonus, the larger harddrive would be pretty much useless for me at the moment, I haven't used the current one pretty much at all (not counting save games).

http://www.mcvuk.com/Shock-new-deluxe-360-arriving-soon

@jtsiren

Where these rumours started and Microsoft's response:

"The Xbox forum read, "Just got back from another product knowledge day and official word from Microsoft is that there is a black 360, (black controller too) with HDMI and a 120GB hard drive coming out here soon, for USD 749. Probably around April, but possibly late March to take on the PS3 launch."

Microsoft said, "We haven’t announced such a product". The company spokesperson continued, "What we have delivered is the most powerful and affordable video game system on the planet today. And with games like Halo 3, Guitar Hero 2, Mass Effect, Grand Theft Auto 4 and Forza Motorsport 2, the story of the year on Xbox 360 is the games, not the hardware"

here

$749 sounds a bit much, more likely this alledged device would cost around the rumoured price of US$580, which puts it pretty close to the cost of a PS3 premium, but without a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player built-in (and what about built-in Wi-Fi and Flashcard readers?). If the rumours are true the device will ship with a 120 GB harddrive, so more capacity than the PS3 premium's 60 GB, but PS3s are easily upgraded beyond this storage capacity by both users or Sony themselves if required..

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 01:15 PM.

@MikeB

It is just a rumor, for sure. Microsoft has been "no comment" for a year now on this. I have seen the video of the machine online (white though), I'm sure you have too, so the prototype is out there unless someone really went far with faking it. Whether or not it will ever emerge is one thing. It is quite possible it will never come.

Just saying that if it does, it would probably find its way on my "buy" list, considering I now believe Xbox 360 will be my main platform for a few years more and this new model could add a few things I would like to have. It would still be great to have it this year even if I were to buy a PS3 somewhere down the line, say, next year if some games I want requires it - and all the more better if I never do buy a PS3.

That $749 is AUD, just so that no-one mistakes it for USD. If sold at that price here where I live, it would equal 460 EUR, still way short of the 680 EUR of the PS3. Obviously adding the HD-DVD add-on would make it almost as pricey as the PS3 and with Wi-fi the same price or more (although in that case Xbox 360 with double the HD space and a remote included, minus the flash card slots of course) - depending on whether or not one wants these... I wouldn't need them.

I doubt the new Xbox 360 HDMI would retail in the U.S. at $580, though. The jump from the Premium price there would be quite high. Of course it is possible still.

Edit: "The price of the 60GB PS3 in Australia (which will be the only model available) is $780 USD and the premium 360 is $468 USD." That kind of puts into perspective the $580 USD price conversion... I really doubt this would be $580 in the U.S. Unfortunately it will probably be more than a guesstimate sub-$500 USD for us in Europe... I'm betting 450-500 EUR. Maybe $299 Core, $399 Premium, $499 HDMI in the U.S. and 280 EUR, 380 EUR, 480 EUR levels in Europe?

Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 02:06 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 02:01 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 01:42 PM.
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Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 01:39 PM.

Just a personal note on the price: I do think the PS3 is expensive just for gaming, but the price isn't prohibitive for hardcore gamers either. I would buy it if I wanted it. The open question is if and when such a time, when I do want it, comes. It is all about the games, I guess - which games get the most out of the machines and how they play.

Currently looking forward to Forza 2 to complement my Xbox 360 FF wheel.