@TetiSoft
That was one of the reasons I left that particular question answered the way I did....

I think we all agree that OS4 on 'real hardware' is preferable, but for many it isn't an option. In the event that OS4 could run under emulation, it _would_ very likely grow the OS4 user base, and yes, I believe people would buy OS4 to run under emulation..piracy will always be a concern, but presumably it's the same case for OS4 Classic as well.

It's sort of a moot point right now, as there exists no emulator I'm aware of that would run OS4 under it 'as is,' but I do hope the net result were this to come to be a possibility, would be additional sales of OS4.

Anyways, to all, let's keep the flames to a minimum here...the point if this thread is simply to clarify the state of OS4 for classics, not decide if it's a good idea or not, etc.

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@fryguy

Quote:

fryguy wrote: yikes 200mb harddisk space, i didn't thought it was that big? Or is that only when installating and the installation actually takes less space?

You can blame part of the extra room on the added functionality (the new drivers, built in USB stack, built in internet communications stack, built in MUI and Reaction, 24 bit icons, etc), part of it on the fact that PPC programs need to be more verbose than 68K programs (it's the price one pays for RISC - the benefit is faster code) and part of it on the ELF binary format. ELF is the file format used to store PPC executables, and it's not as compact as amiga hunks (used in 68K Amiga programs and libraries). It comes from the Unix world, where portability is seen as more important than disk space (with 20/20 hindsight, one can see that those Unix guys got it right big time). On the plus side, the bloat is mostly skipped over when the code gets loaded into memory, so it's only disk space that is wasted.

Still, 200MB for a complete OS install is pretty small by today's standards. Windows XP needs 1.5GB, and I don't know of any recent "desktop" Linux distros that will fit into 200MB (eg Ubuntu 7.10 requires 4GB - then again, that probably includes a ton of apps, so make it 1GB for the OS without Firefox, OpenOffice, etc). I have no idea what the requirements are for MacOS, but I'd be very surprised if they were much different.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 22-Oct-2007 at 10:30 PM.

@CodeSmith

Actually, it's way less than 200MB, closer to 125 than 200.
The minimum recommended probably has more to do with the fact that installs of other software (libraries, MUI, etc.) into SYS: on the same HD partition raise this amount to the point where 200MB becomes a safer recommendation for use, as opposed to a statement about the actual space the OS requires.

#6

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@CodeSmith

Yes i know PPC programs tend to be pretty big and you're right there's a lot of applications with the OS i didn't think of, like USB and TCP/IP stack and more.

And it's not that harddisks are expensive now a days anyway.

I wish i would have kept one of my PPC cards, sold almost all of my Amiga equipment 2000, when i bought a PC.

@fryguy

There are a number of things that blow up the installation size. Python for example adds some 4 MB, AmiPDF is I think 10 MB. A lot of visual stuff takes up more room because of true color vs. 4 bit graphics.

We had it stripped down to I think 16 MB for the Mystery device, including a few programs but excluding a number of things that aren't strictly needed for a PDA. But all in all, the new stuff in AmigaOS 4.0 adds a good deal to disk space requirement.

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@Rogue

16MB for an embedded (PDA) PPC OS . How does that compare to other embeded OS that run on PPC? (ie what are the sizes of other common OSs)

Last edited by Bit7 on 23-Oct-2007 at 12:03 PM.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

ELF is the file format used to store PPC executables, and it's not as compact as amiga hunks (used in 68K Amiga programs and libraries).

To correct this "ELF is a monster" myth, ELF does not take more space than Amiga hunks. There are more headers but increase is merely noticeable.

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is graphics card mandatory?
(sorry if this was already asked)

why does it take so much RAM? its hard to install 64Mb in desktop A1200 because of space..
(you can't use double sided 32Mb modules, is there any chance it might work with 48Mb?)

Last edited by orange on 23-Oct-2007 at 01:57 PM.

@orange

OS4 works correctly with AGA/ECS. A graphic card is not mandatory but it's definitely recommended.

PPC programs are usually slightly bigger than 680x0 ones so even if you make it work with not much ram it wouldn't be fun. I would use 128MB as minimum. Having a BlizzardPPC you should raise that to 256MB...

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@wegster

Quote:

12. is there anything on a CPU level (if we consider that we have MMU and FPU on 68k) that would stop some of the more advanced OS4 features from working on 68k, IF OS4 were ver to be ported (re-ported) to 68k? Any chance?

A 68k version has been off the cards for 5 years that I can remember, since the "next" version of AmigaOS as announced, and expected, would be PPC only. People were upset then, and less are upset now. But, all that time ago, I never wanted to run an AmigaOS 4.0 on my A1020/030@40/AGA!! A new machine or else!

Quote:

15. If WinUAE gets a PPC cpu emulation option will it be "legal" to buy and run a copy of AmigaOS4 Classic on emulation?- unsure this is a question for Hyperion or existing laws, not classic OS4 specific.

What?! WinUAE will get PPC emulation before MacUAE gets native WarpUP PPC emulation? That's it, this will be the last straw. It's one thing with the PPC and it's big endian CPU with 32 registers not getting a 68K JIT, but not even being able to run PowerPC Amiga code natively is another. You can forget any kind of PowerPC Amiga software running native on a Mac now.

@doraemon

Quote:

I have in mind whdload or 68k/aga demos

Would be good to see PPC native demos but since WarpUP has been given the boot I seriously doubt that. Imagine that, a native PowerPC AmigaOS running on a real Amiga, that can't run classic native PowerPC apps!

I hope I am wrong about that!

@Mods

I personally think you are being a bit harsh on Stokey here but that's my opinion, and judging by my interpretation of the terms of service, one I am allowed to express as I am not directly contradicting or aruing with you about it.

I think a little over entusiasm here is all that stokey is guilty of.

Rude!

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@TetiSoft

Quote:

Sorry, had a bad day today (again). Birthday of my daughter...

I"m sorry to hear that. That should be a happy day. A daughter...I learn things about you all the time. Now what have people discovered about me today?

Quote:

Next time please ask AIncabout an OS4 license for UAE and please stop asking Hyperion about OS4 for x86,

Related, haw many people have actually asked Genesi; or whom it may concern, about MorphOS or x86?

Quote:

My goal was to help developing OS4 for realPPC hardware and not to create something which runs inside any sort of emulation.

And of which you and the team have done a fine job. Well done.

Quote:

To write something positive and on-topic here, OS4Classic runs here withPicassoIV and AriadneII and MultiFaceCardIII on A4k with Micronik ZIIIdaughterboard. I've also tested CyberVision64/3D, PicassoII, Merlin,Prometheus plus Permedia2, AriadneI.

I am certainly happy to hear this, there are at least a couple of people in my Amiga club who were interested in OS4 Classic. Exciting news from me is afoot. It almost brings me back to the 3.5 and 3.9 releases and how exciting they were. Now there is another version of AmigaOS that can run a real Amigas again. A time for celebration, for whoever wants too.

Now people can erase MorphOS and install AmigaOS4 and...oops...what I meant to say was people can install AmigaOS4 alongside MorphOS... and now they can have a drag!!

@Hypex

Quote:

Would be good to see PPC native demos but since WarpUP has been given the boot I seriously doubt that. Imagine that, a native PowerPC AmigaOS running on a real Amiga, that can't run classic native PowerPC apps! I hope I am wrong about that!

I could understand it eventually when somebody would complain that OS4 for the
AOne cant run WarpUp applications, but I fail to see the need to start OS4
on a classic machine for running a WarpUp demo. Just start OS3 with WarpUp
for this.

The same type of argument can be used for running games which need WHDLoad.
Such a game is IMHO not a "friendly" game (not friendly to the OS and not
friendly to the user, otherwise it would be harddisk installable). OS4 may
or may not be compatible enough to run a game which runs under OS3 plus
WHDLoad, but it really doesnt matter, the user doesnt need to destroy his
existing OS3 setup to install OS4.

@Hypex

Quote:

What?! WinUAE will get PPC emulation before MacUAE gets native WarpUP PPC emulation? That's it, this will be the last straw. It's one thing with the PPC and it's big endian CPU with 32 registers not getting a 68K JIT, but not even being able to run PowerPC Amiga code natively is another. You can forget any kind of PowerPC Amiga software running native on a Mac now.

That probably should have been written as more of a generic question, or perhaps not at all. Remember, we took questions from users - not all, or even several of them are mine, although I did expand or re-phrase most of them. Again, I think the question is really a moot point, as for starters, there is currently no emulation that could emulate either an A1 nor a classic with PPC, on any platform. Secondly, while someone may place restrictions inside a EULA, they are notoroiously unenforceable, essentially - if you buy it, you can use it, although that doesn't allow for on multiple computers, etc.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @fryguy There are a number of things that blow up the installation size. Python for example adds some 4 MB, AmiPDF is I think 10 MB. A lot of visual stuff takes up more room because of true color vs. 4 bit graphics. We had it stripped down to I think 16 MB for the Mystery device, including a few programs but excluding a number of things that aren't strictly needed for a PDA. But all in all, the new stuff in AmigaOS 4.0 adds a good deal to disk space requirement.

Was that 16MB of RAM, or 16MB on disk?

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is dual OS4/3.* booting possible, easy to do etc?

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@itix

To be clear, I never said ELF is a cause of huge bloat, just that it's less compact. Things that ELF binaries have that bloat them include:

1) As you mention, the headers are larger in ELF
2) Page-aligining .text, .data, .rodata, etc. That can add up to 12KB to an executable size, assuming worst case and 4KB page size (best case it adds nothing)
3) The Global Offset Table ELF uses to implement position independent code, which is normally only needed for shared libraries, but which is a requirement for all amiga binaries due to the single address space design of amigaos (doesn't the PPC instruction set allow native position independent code? I never understood why the ABI says you need a GOT when the architecture implements the feature natively)

Those are not going to add megs to an executable's size by any means, but if you have a couple hundred programs and libraries it does add up, and the original question was "why is this thing bigger?"

Last edited by CodeSmith on 23-Oct-2007 at 05:41 PM.

Does it matter where the boot partition is under OS4?
Under OS3.9 this should be within the first 2gig of the drive.

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@TiredofLife

The OS4 partition does not need to be whit in the 2gb; but you need a old FFS partition to load the kickstart modules for OS4, and that partition most be whit in the first 2GB of disk space, once AmigaOS4 is loaded the new PowerPC native Fast File System will be available and its fully NSD64 compatible, and for the most common hardware there will be fully native PowerPC drivers that are NSD64 compatible, you should probably be careful whit the TD64 based file systems and drivers on Aminet.

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