response to trolling removed - wegster

Last edited by wegster on 12-Jan-2008 at 01:05 AM.

useless response about trolling removed- wegster

Last edited by wegster on 12-Jan-2008 at 01:06 AM.

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: Desktop MHz isn't the key, it isn't the answer, far from it. I wonder why we don't see 3GHz Quad Core Intel machines with 8800GT graphics in television sets, set top boxes and handheld gear of cell phone sizes, when this is "so forward"? Gee...

Low MHz isn't the key, it isn't the answer, far from it. I wonder why we don't see 400MHz PPC machines with crippled IDE bus being used for video editing, image processing and high-end gaming, when this is "so forward"? Gee...

Last edited by hatschi on 12-Jan-2008 at 12:25 AM.

@hatschi

Not every HW device needs to be used for "video editing" and "high-end gaming".

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @hatschi Not every HW device needs to be used for "video editing" and "high-end gaming".

Did I say that somewhere?

@tonyw

Quote:

tonyw wrote: @takemehomegrandma Crikey! I think that (#46) is the most intelligent post I've ever read on this or any other Amiga forum.

Thanks! I have written things like this in the past as well, but it's always a bit like , so your words was very much appreciated!

Here is some more thoughts in the same line: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,

@Chip

OS4 has been locked down for legal reasons for more than 5 years, if not longer. This prevents it from running on the SAM440, the Pegasos, the Efika, the AHT PPC STB (that was cancelled?), etc, etc, and the LimePC devices as well. This is the real reason to why OS4 has no hardware, it is *not* because of suitable PPC hardware hasn't existed, because it has. MorphOS is in a far better position in comparison, and v2.0 will be released when the team is happy with it, no nonsense like this will hold it back.

Hyperion did a "priority bump" for the classic release because they decided to take a chance that their license may still be valid (despite Amiga Inc terminated it), and if this really is the case, the classic is *the only* platform Hyperion has the right to release OS4 for. If it the license is invalid, then they didn't even have the right to develop/sell it for the classic!

BTW, MorphOS was released for the Classic as well. A *long* time ago!

@takemehomegrandma

I like where you talk about the different philosophy of the Amiga OS, but I just can't agree with the end result of what you say.

I've never got this idea that Windows is this irresistable force of evil temptation that can only be avoided by complete abstinence of anything x86. Either the OS is good enough or it isn't. If we're just denying ourselves something that we know to be better in every way, then maybe we should grow up and call off this charade.

On the other hand, if the AmigaOS, or clone, is usable and useful, people will boot into it. The fast boot time alone would make me boot into Amiga over anything else. I just don't believe that the way to grow the Amiga market is to present a very high barrier to entry and then kind of press-gang them into staying afterwards.

And how come when people talk about x86, they talk about these uber-powerful multi-core 3 gigahertz tower systems with hardcore graphics? And then they talk about low-power PowerPC devices. Talk about stereotyping. There's a ton of cheap, energy-efficient x86 Linux boxes available to hook up to your TV. There's a new generation of cheap sub-notebooks like the OLPC XO and the Eee PC with slower processors, less RAM, smaller screens, flash storage and lower energy requirements.

And of course there's the Mac Mini. Not the discontinued not-as-good model that might run a pirated copy of Moana for 10 minutes, but the newer, better one that you can actually go into a shop and buy.

I don't know why people care so much about something you can't see, can't smell, can't hear, can't touch. It has zero effect on computing, except to make Amigas slower, more expensive and impossible to obtain. The whole Amiga philosophy seems to hang on this invisible silicon ####.

Chris

@hatschi

Quote:

hatschi wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @hatschi Not every HW device needs to be used for "video editing" and "high-end gaming". Did I say that somewhere?

Yes, that was what your (very poor) analogy suggested.

No-one will seriously do video editing and high-end gaming on Amiga. Never, ever. No matter the CPU platform and GHz. That race was lost 15 years ago already, and x86/PPC has nothing to do with it. Power CPU's are used in the highest end games consoles BTW, but no, even if AmigaOS would be ported to whatever console, it wouldn't mean that we would see high end Amiga games.

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: @wegster Quote: Sorry, I fail to see how ANOTHER OS without hardware or an updated release would help...anyone? (yes yes, it's coming, it's coming, we know. So is OS4 hardware, and of course, OS5 :-/ ) OS4 hardware is blocked because of other reasons, and so is OS4. AmigaOS5 is... well, it's McBill's latest crack trip, what can one say? No such things are holding MorphOS back. I have full confidence in the MorphOS team. Nothing in the past makes me doubt neither their capabilities nor their ambitions.

No such things, except (lack of) performance of both Genesi and the MOS team in delivering things.

Can we stop trying to turn another thread into a MOS ad, when it's not much better off as things stand now?

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I don't think any company will market old Mac hardware for AmigaOS4,

And therein is already one problem, the AInc/Partners marketing scheme - overpriced hardware PLUS OS costs? Sorry, sell the OS, stop trying to overprice underperforming hardware when it can't come close to what other companies can produce. Target the LimePC if it sees retail, Mac Mini, PS3, whatever...real hardware that doesn't rip off users on pricing.

in other words, I don't _want_ someone to 'market old Mac hardware,' just sell the OS, I'll find the hardware myself, thanks.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Yes, that was what your (very poor) analogy suggested.

Then you either a) misunderstood it or b) your own post would have suggested the same, i.e. that every HW-device needs to be used in "television sets, set top boxes and handheld gear of cell phone sizes" and thus has to be "low power PPC"?

@Darth_X and Chip and whoever else

That's enough. You wanna fight? PM each other.

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@clebin

Quote:

clebin wrote: @takemehomegrandma And how come when people talk about x86, they talk about these uber-powerful multi-core 3 gigahertz tower systems with hardcore graphics? And then they talk about low-power PowerPC devices. Talk about stereotyping. There's a ton of cheap, energy-efficient x86 Linux boxes available to hook up to your TV. There's a new generation of cheap sub-notebooks like the OLPC XO and the Eee PC with slower processors, less RAM, smaller screens, flash storage and lower energy requirements.

Spot on.

So, there isn't much left after removing Darth_X, Chips and others comments about site comparisons, trolling, and responses to trolling.

Are we able to keep reasonably on topic now without violating the TOS? No wise-ass responses needed.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@clebin

If you would want to compete with Windows, your first step would be to make sure you have everything (OS features, Drivers, Applications, etc, EVERYTHING) *at least* on par with Windows.

Leveraging the OS to Windows level would take at least as long time as it took for Microsoft to reach to the current level, and it will take the similar amount of investments (billions of dollars). This is nothing that the Friedens could do in a few months. And for the OS to become as capable as Windows is (for *it is* very capable, which most Amiga nerds always fail to grasp), it will end up in being very much alike Windows when it comes to footprint size, performance, etc. There are certain things that makes AmigaOS what it is, and there are certain things that makes Windows what it is. You can't make a new Windows and still have the current OS4 unchanged, no, make another Windows and you will have another Windows.

OK, a few billions of dollars and 10 years of development, and you have a Windows comparable OS. Fine. But what about the Applications? MS Office is world standard, so is Photoshop, InDesign, DreamWeaver, Flash, etc. Hundreds of apps that you can't live without, and what reason would Adobe have to port all their apps (and all other software houses to port theirs) to this obscure new platform? None whatsoever.

But say that they do. Now you have an offering that is *at least* comparable to Windows standard, which is required to *even get on the race track*. Now you begin racing against Windows.

Porter has a theory about competitive strategy that I believe comes from some military theory that says that if you are going head on to a competitor, you will need *at least* three times (preferably a lot more) his resources to have a chance. Now, how much resources does Microsoft have at hand? And we are competing with Apple too, aren't we?

It's not like "people will start using Amiga if it boots faster". There must be so many impossible pieces in place. You are talking about changing a world standard, a paradigm for OS and applications and how these interacts with both hardware, OS and Humans, something that has been established a long time ago already. People have taken courses to learn this standard, "computer driving licenses" has been developed around this, a whole industry of support and training. Corporations and offices all around the globe use this standard, everyone knows how it works, so the "transaction costs" are minimal, that's the reason. And you think Ben Hermans and the Friedens will change this any day soon?

Amiga doesn't have what it takes there, but it is great for other things. Those things is the areas where you should capitalize. There is *nothing* backwards about that. Different purposes, different OS's.

@hatschi

No I don't think I misunderstood.

@NutsAboutAmiga

I, for one, am very interested in Amiga OS 5. It runs on phones, and as a result has a potentially huge market. I don't care if it runs standalone on a desktop or not. The desktop market isn't long for this world anyway :lol

On the other hand, how much of a market do you think an OS that only runs on PPC hardare will have?

I happily admit that I'll buy one, but then, I also happily admit to being weird - people in the real world won't pay through the nose for underpowered hardware. OS4 is only for a niche market.

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

If you would want to compete with Windows, your first step would be to make sure you have everything (OS features, Drivers, Applications, etc, EVERYTHING) *at least* on par with Windows.

I don't think so, because then you'd never get to make a second step (unless you happen to have a few spare billion lying around, and are willing to waste them on over-paying any programmer you can lay your hands on).

No, all you need is to do something important to a sufficient number of people sufficiently better, while being not-too-much-worse in the other stuff.

Right now, Apple's MacOS is competing quite well with Windows, despite Apple's computers now being able to run Windows as well. MacOS doesn't have Windows' driver support, or all of Windows' features, or all of Windows' applications, and sure, it will not (at this point at least) replace Windows as the dominant consumer OS. However, MacOS does a fair number of things *better* than Windows, and there is a significant number of people who care enough to put up with the drawbacks (i.e. to buy from a very restricted set of hardware, deal with the unavailability of applications and the lack of driver support for many devices).

AmigaOS doesn't have much going for it right now. Last few times someone tried, each time around a thousand people saw enough good in it to put up with the drawbacks (support for limited and/or hugely expensive hardware, limited performance compared to native x86 offerings, bugs, uncertainty about further development, no support for modern web standards, and so on).
The important thing to realise here is that even getting close to catching up in most of these aspects wouldn't really provide a market --- even if AmigaOS had firefox, ran on a MacMini and G5 Macs, had a roadmap and a committed development company with cash reserves and a track record of delivery, and full memory protection --- it would still lack some convincing reason why anyone beyond a few thousand old-time fans would want to use it. What would set it apart, say, from FreeBSD?

On the other hand, find something "killer" that people can do on your OS, and that can't be cloned on some other OS in short notice, and lots of people will put up with a heck of a lot of drawbacks to be able to do that one thing. Of course, the plan "step 1: Come up with killer app. step 2: Use killer app to convert plenty of people to AmigaOS. step 3: Profit" has a slightly less well-defined step1 than yours; But at least its step 1 only requires a stroke of genius, not billions of dollars :)

@Darth_X

Ok, just to add to the nonsense.....


There once was an OS called Amiga
It created and sang
It out performed any thing
Then a strange curse arrived that would never leave-ah




Plaz (/me enjoys a bit of nonsense around here)