@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @bison Well I Think this things should be banded from any modern motherboard 1 Floppy drive connector

Considering the large amount of Amiga software that is on floppy disk (a majority of it) and also the fact that a disk drive is preferable for OS 4.0 are you sure that is a good option? Floppies are still very useful for some things such as cold booting.

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@kiasanth

Quote:

kiasanth wrote: @abalaban I'm all for X86, if we want amiga OS on a modern affordable system, it really has to be x86, in my opinion

Agreed!!!

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@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @AliveMOon Someone should just get Amiga OS4 to work on Powerbook G4 chipsets considering its CPU ranges between 886mhz-1.67Ghz, already has an imbedded Radeon 9700 GPU, expandable to 2Gbs of DDR2 RAM, has the most up to date ports OS4 can handle including DVI and the only thing that needs to be done to get it to work would be new firmware for its northbridge. And it is affordable by PPC standards with used ones usually going for $660 and mint as high as $1,300 USD. Best of all, people can buy it ready made as either a laptop or micro-ATX like form factor aka Mac Mini. But this can only happen if Amiga.inc loses and Hyperion allows it.

These machines are not being produced any more so are effectively time bombs, they will get more and more dated, and the last thing the Amiga needs is MORE dated hardware

We need hardware that is more modern and futureproof if the Amiga is to excel forwards as a platform. x86 is the only way to go for this IMO.

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@billt

At one point I hacked up some drawings to illustrate what a dedicated hardware engineer working full-time could get up and running in say about a year:

block diagram:
http://olegil.amigaos.se/970_mk2.png

board floorplan:
http://olegil.amigaos.se/970_floorplan.jpg

gimp version with one layer per bus type:
http://olegil.amigaos.se/970_floorplan.xcf

The idea would be that some of us specced it and bought engineering time from the people who done the eval system of the 970...

The problem was, someone(TM) started going on about how it needed this and that and before the evening was over, we were back at the same spec as the eval board. Which would have meant 22 layers PCB and 3000$+++ component cost...

Until people learn how to compromise it aint gonna happen. But the ideas are valid.

I have here one third of a PPC440SPe design in a ultra-small-tower configuration (mATX compatible, but would come with it's own tower because it would be so much cooler that way), one half MPC8349E design with PCIe x1 in a x16 port for graphics, 3-6 PCI ports (I've done both schematics and only the PCI bus would be routed differently) and either a southbridge like the one on SAM440 or just a USB controller. There would be one set of 66MHz PCI and one set of 33MHz PCI, running through a brigde and into PCI2 on the MPC8349E. PCIe comes through a bridge from PCI1...

The thing is, as soon as people start reviewing my ideas they say "but you need this" or "you need that" and before you know it, we're back at square one.


My design philosophy:
Bundled good, soldered bad. So ports, ports, ports. Not chips, ports. It's impossible to compete with a 10$ sound or ethernet card, so the cheapest solution will be the one that doesn't have that onboard.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Earthling

Quote:

Earthling wrote: These machines are not being produced any more so are effectively time bombs, they will get more and more dated, and the last thing the Amiga needs is MORE dated hardware We need hardware that is more modern and futureproof if the Amiga is to excel forwards as a platform. x86 is the only way to go for this IMO.

When it comes down to it every piece of hardware ticks towards eventual obsolescence, nothing is imune. At one point everyone assumed MIP CPUs would continue to dominate mobile RISC devices but now it is apparent the ARM has taken over.

The jump has been made by AMD and Intel to the x86-64 architecture across all their desktop and laptop chipsets about 2 years ago. But now with Intel dominating they may push their their IA-64 architecture more.

Think about this for a bit, it will take years to develope OS4 to work on x86-64 and in that amount of time a lot of things can change. We need readily available hardware that works for us now, even as a stopgap until a long term solution is implemented.

If we allow ourselves to realize the very possible reality that this court case will take years to finish (sorry if that hurts guys!) and there is also a large liklihood that OS4 will never be seen on any new hardware (soory again) then I'd really like to see a couple of x64 AROS reference platforms.

Considering both the web browser and UAE integration are planned to be complete around mid 2008, I'd like to see a software company choose a high-end laptop system and desktop system and take on responsibility of developing the required AROS drivers for the systems and ensuring that an x64 AROS distro is stable on these systems.

Bear in mind that by choosing a high-end system to work on now, the systems will be closer to mid-range and more affordable by the end of the year, but not yet obsolete.

The company could bundle the unit with a load of abandonware Amiga games and apps, and some of their own value-added software.

Before people slam the idea as impossible because AROS is open-source, there is no reason that the company have to open-source the value-added software (I'm not sure about the drivers, though?). A basic media-center style interface for playing back movies, music, and internet radio stations, bundled with a generic usb remote control, for instance shouldn't take *too* much work to put together. They could even include an LCD panel in the desktop system and add basic interfacing (reading id3 tags for instance) which can later be expanded upon.

@wegster

Quote:

- Everyone wants different things - People think some things exist that don't, or are astronomically expensive (a PPC970 mobo with PCI-Express), or just unrealistic when they want a 'dream machine' versus what reality might be able to provide. - NO COMPANY HAS A LICENSE FOR OS4 HARDWARE - Even when hardware does show up, see last point, as well as people wanting 'something else.' - Any 'custom' hardware with even approaching modern specs, if made for the 'Amiga community,' will be cost prohibitive due to the low numbers of boards/systems to be made - Anyone making 'only Amiga hardware' is either totally insane, or a VERY small company

You forgot the "it has to be cheaper than for free"-attitude that always pops up when products get done in reality and prices surface.

Everything is compared to x86 bulkware and if its not cheaper everybody cries "Ripoff! Don't buy it. They steal your money and eat your kids!" as seen on the MiniMig Threads when ACubes prices were announced.

I don't understand people with this atitude. If you want cheap HW go buy PCs. Who could imagine people in a Ferrari Fan Forum ranting about Ferarris being to expensive?
It's so rediculous

@olegil

A PCB with little more than the CPU chip and a lot of standard ports is good for a lean PPC "desktop" where it's practical to get everything else in PCI slots. But I wanna laptop, which makes it much harder to do that sort of thing, simply because there are not cards for that sort of thing to give me SATA from a mini-PCIe slot, sound from a mini-PCIe slot, and whatever else would fill that out. Graphics may have a suitable small expansion standard coming soon in Kontron's Universal Graphics Module format, and their eval unit is even a Radeon which is convenient for my own personal preferences and driver interests.

Besides, if the CPU already has ethernet built-in, why not give it a port for a cat5 wire?

Setting "realistic" aside, I was just saying what I'd like as a PPC specced laptop. If you're limiting the discussion to what could be "practical" and actually doable, then yea, laptops are out of the question and your CPU and expansion slots and little if anything else desktop board is a smart approach. I just wasn't limiting my response to smart or realistic practical stuff. :)

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@AliveMOon

I saw the video and I thinked is this game for Amiga?





I think it could be a very atractive game for Amiga.

As for the Hardware the best choice for me is PowerPC because is better than x86 and keep the machines as Amigas.

I think sooner or later we can see new improvements in the hardware area.
Maybe this year?

Last edited by newlight on 23-Jan-2008 at 06:11 PM.

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@newlight


With pleasure porting to AMIGA, did not manage to get yet onto him simply my time.
The kind to OS4, the things would progress simply well.

_________________
My first prototype game.
Current work on this!

Things I want to buy:
An accelerator card for my A2000

@billt

Yes, yes. I don't disagree with your idea. I'm just commenting on the bike-shed-effect where everyone puts down a veto unless their idea gets implemented. At the cost of ruining the entire project...

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

I base my idea on much FPGA being a miracle appears recently, but all the old stuffs clone and very correct this in this manner, but it would be possible to model a new architecture with these components, it would be necessary to draw up a specification before it simply.

_________________
My first prototype game.
Current work on this!

Things I want to buy:
An accelerator card for my A2000

@Earthling

Quote:

Considering the large amount of Amiga software that is on floppy disk (a majority of it) and also the fact that a disk drive is preferable for OS 4.0 are you sure that is a good option? Floppies are still very useful for some things such as cold booting.

Yes but standard PC floppy disk controller can’t read 880k disks, so that argument is kind of void, and in any case most of the Amiga disk are found on the internet in the form of ADF disk images files (Games/Cover disks) and most of the public domain Amiga software is found on Aminet.net, so what is left is your private disks, your personal drawings, docs, and source-code, and wary old commercial software.

Well I own a Catweasel controller MK4 (Amiga compatible floppy controller for the PCI slot), I used it make backups of all my floppy disks (using the ADF format), now I don’t use the floppy disk controller any more, what I use is USB stick of 2GB, it’s fast and big, no need to split files any more, or even better just use e-mail or FTP.

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@billt

SATA can be added via expresscard, as can USB, ethernet, firewire. But expresscards are very expensive compared to PCI-Express equivalents.

If we assume the laptop will come with USB built in then Ethernet, Sound and (very basic) video can all be added via USB.

But the whole reason you've purchased a laptop is portability so you don't wanna be lugging around usb soundcards (and speakers!) with you. Ethernet modules are small enough to carry around and it's unlikely that you'll need to connect you laptop to a network whilst on a plane or train but at the end of the day, what's the unit cost of adding ethernet to a mainboard anyway?

I think it's safe to say that for a desktop unit you could get away with a pretty basic board and a load of PCI/PCI Express slots. For a laptop you have to think a little harder about what it actually needs!

@Pleng

The kind of special proposed bunbled non-Windows PC is the sort of business model Everex, LimePC and Asus EePC runs on. And it is with great sucess; but only in the low cost area. When it comes to higher end machines people want it be able to do as much as it can possibly handle.

Unfortunately, we both know AROS doesn't offer that wide a range of apps even if a business start creating proprietary software for it. Also most people right now are not going to buy this system for what it has or can do but rather its semblance to the Commodore/Escom Amiga.

@olegil
Hey olegil,

Where did the PCIE card experiment on the A1 wind up? (Sorry if it's been mentioned, really don't recall though?)

Would love to see you do a stripped down board. Unfortunately, the issue right now would be licensing, 'as usual'?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@olegil

IMHO the best compromise would be to use a reasonaby high end SOC and a bunch of slots. If we go by the "bundle is good" philosophy (which has been rather good for Apple), the SOC will dictate what the builtin hardware is (since it's going to be a lot cheaper and more efficient if widget X is on-chip rather than separate) and everything else can go in bundled cards. Given the insane amount of integration that is happening these days, I bet that only one or two cards would need to be bundled.

I'm curious - why PCI-X? For anything other than routers or industrial controllers, it's basically a waste of space...

@Pleng

Quote:

ATA can be added via expresscard, as can USB, ethernet, firewire. But expresscards are very expensive compared to PCI-Express equivalents.

That, and you probably only get to choose one of these, looking at laptops in the stores today. That would also make it awkward to get SATA wires up to an internal HDD and CD drive on a laptop. Basically I'd go but a laptop, throw out the motherboard, put in a PPC motherboard that was made to the same shape and connectors palcement, so all the laptop shell items like keyboard, touchpad, HDD, CD, etc. fit and work as they did with the original motherboard. And I'd want everything to fit in the laptop, not carry around a suitcase full of dongles to plug on the outside, that really ruins the whole purpose of a laptop/notebook computer. If the only thing inside is the CPU and memory, then it's not a good laptop.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @Earthling Quote: Earthling wrote: These machines are not being produced any more so are effectively time bombs, they will get more and more dated, and the last thing the Amiga needs is MORE dated hardware We need hardware that is more modern and futureproof if the Amiga is to excel forwards as a platform. x86 is the only way to go for this IMO. When it comes down to it every piece of hardware ticks towards eventual obsolescence, nothing is imune. At one point everyone assumed MIP CPUs would continue to dominate mobile RISC devices but now it is apparent the ARM has taken over. The jump has been made by AMD and Intel to the x86-64 architecture across all their desktop and laptop chipsets about 2 years ago. But now with Intel dominating they may push their their IA-64 architecture more. Think about this for a bit, it will take years to develope OS4 to work on x86-64 and in that amount of time a lot of things can change. We need readily available hardware that works for us now, even as a stopgap until a long term solution is implemented.

True, but the way I see it, will PowerPC even be around in 5 years time? Maybe... maybe not, but looking at the last 15 years with x86 dominating, I can see it still being around by then.

So surely the sooner AOS moves to x86 the better? To prevent headaches in the long term.

_________________
Founder of NWAG - North West Amiga Group

Night Operations

A1200 020/28MHz + 64Mb / 4Gb CF / OS 3.1.4.1 / 1438S
A500+ / 2Mb
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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: Yes but standard PC floppy disk controller can’t read 880k disks, so that argument is kind of void, and in any case most of the Amiga disk are found on the internet in the form of ADF disk images files (Games/Cover disks) and most of the public domain Amiga software is found on Aminet.net, so what is left is your private disks, your personal drawings, docs, and source-code, and wary old commercial software.

Yes, but I'd imagine most people will still want to access these, and cold boot from floppy from time to time.

Quote:

Well I own a Catweasel controller MK4 (Amiga compatible floppy controller for the PCI slot), I used it make backups of all my floppy disks (using the ADF format), now I don’t use the floppy disk controller any more, what I use is USB stick of 2GB, it’s fast and big, no need to split files any more, or even better just use e-mail or FTP.

Which is great for writing files, but in terms of accessing data on disks it would be better to have an Amiga compatible disk drive = PC drive with Catweasel. Just think with every machine produced we would be helping the developers of Catweasel too.

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Founder of NWAG - North West Amiga Group

Night Operations

A1200 020/28MHz + 64Mb / 4Gb CF / OS 3.1.4.1 / 1438S
A500+ / 2Mb
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