@SpaceDruid

Quote:

I also state clearly why I think they are wrong.

I know, but you need to offer tangible proof to the contrary otherwise why would anyone see a reason to ignore all they have seen so far over the years in favor of what your conjecture is?

Quote:

I don't think we (the community) are an integral part of their immediate plans and so I don't expect matters to improve till AA is a success.

Lets explore this idea a bit though. First is that the community creates a lot of content on the internet on this subject. Dosen't it make sense to do the simple things necessary to achieve a better relationship with the community so that the more general critical nature of that content makes way to more supportive content. Because now we are talking not just about potential investors, we are talking about potential platform programmers, and customers *outside* of the community for the AA line. If some guy who ran across one of the Digital Experience YouTube videos, or was at the event themselves did a simple Google after having interest it might not continue to be so inspiring. As it is there are already negative articles from multiple newspapers, one a major regional over the Kent thing and then the whole lawsuit thing to boot. Why the hell wouldn't you, as Amiga, want to spend the *little bit of time and effort needed* to start setting things straight? And lets not forget, if they did not care about community opinion at all why publish an open letter to us and leave it on the front of Amiga.com for months, for anyone going there to read? Hell for someone who is not aware of goings on in the community it will sure easily lead them to find out. Turning us from being down on them generally to neutral at a minimum would at least start to help clean-up those google search results and with the little effort needed its a win-win. We are happier and then the chance of AA2 success is increaesed in general, whether they expect us to be part of that customer base or not.


Quote:

Yes, we could prove to be an enormous input to the succes of AA if they allowed us to, but as you and others have pointed out many times, the community hold them with very little regard so it makes much more sense for them to find willing programmers in India than the community that pickets outside their gate.

I have also pointed out, many times, and I am far from the only one, that the community does want to see the brand name succeed, they do want to see a patching up of things, and that steps in that direction don't require much effort on their part. Grassroots campaigns can have a lot of power to help a firm, its like getting people marketing for you for free. And sadly, with your bit about Indian programmers, they have given us little reason to trust that is so, with none of the coming soon products ever getting done that are assigned to ADI (Whackforce, etc). The apply now link on ADI's site not working for ages and ages even though they have been notified of it. And they have made a point say they have people working from home not in India, recently making a press release on one of them. So why would they not want to entice more by good relations with us when their most recent programming staff addition was from our ranks essentially?

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Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Feb-2008 at 09:20 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@GregS

Quote:

GregS wrote: @AmigaHeretic TAO was bought by some investment group, it is not abandoned property in any way shap or form, I doubt AI would be using it unless they have made arrangements with the owners, which is also a possiblity -- though things may have been renamed by the owners and hence is no longer intenet or TAO. I wish this was the case because the TAO approach was a very good one. However I think they have gone for some other solution.

I don't doubt it at all, I mean they are selling AA in all those products online right now, and all of those include code that has the developers have not been paid for. There is a judgement out against Bill Mc....... Yet he is still hocking the code online....

So either way they are still selling TAO code in the AA packages, so I don't see they have any morals that would stop them from trying to use in AA2 for a little while to make a few bucks (T-shirt scam) to make some money in hopes they can afford a real programmer...

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
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Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @Colin_Camper Well if you are going to mention the word technicality, I'll point out that there is no factual evidence whatsoever to support your claim they scammed anyone. Amiga have given reasons why they pulled out of the deal and anything else is conjecture based on prior opinions of the company.

But the city of Kent gave their differing version of events. They never used a word like Colin did, but they did not paint a pretty picture either. So it comes down to who you think is more likely to be telling the truth, or at least what is closer to the truth. Is it really any surprise most people choose to believe Kent over Amiga? And whose fault is that? Amiga built the reputation they did before this, they have just added to it unfortunately with this in a further negative way. And thats not even touching on the fact that the reasons to get into the deal, given the costs, and how far ahead of AA2 it was make even less sense now then they did then. If Amiga really has all this money, why are they only at Digital Experience with (in essence) a folding table with a cloth on it with one guy there? Where is the real promotion with all this un-spent money?

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Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Feb-2008 at 09:36 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Feb-2008 at 09:36 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

I heard the reason AI backed out of the Kent deal is they discovered that sponsoring an events center in Second Life is much cheaper.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

If Amiga really has all this money, why are they only at Digital Experience with (in essence) a folding table with a cloth on it with one guy there?

They probably had to borrow that table and cloth from the hotel too.

@DiscreetFX
Quote:

I heard the reason AI backed out of the Kent deal is they discovered that sponsoring an events center in Second Life is much cheaper.

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Quote: I also state clearly why I think they are wrong. I know, but you need to offer tangible proof to the contrary otherwise why would anyone see a reason to ignore all they have seen so far over the years in favor of what your conjecture is?

You've hit the nail on the head there though sadly. Nobody seems to care about proof when it comes to anti-Amiga statements. As I've said many times a vast amount of "facts" about Amiga are nothing of the sort.

Yes Amiga have screwed things up big time, yes they have used tactics that stink, but most of what they are blamed for (example; they don't care about the OS - Despite them being the ones that paid for OS4 development in the first place and currently going through an expensive court case to retrieve it) are based on the years of FUD that has been repeated so many times its become fact.

If you stip away the FUD, Amiga (including Amino) are not even close to as bad as some people (And I include you in this) think they are.

Now when somebody like me comes along and tries to address the balance, suddenly facts become important. Suddenly everything has to be proved in triplicate.

If you and others places as much reliance on factual evidence on your side of the fence, you might be a bit surprised to how little facts you have.

From the top of my head.

Wages, and the none payment of. Anti-Amiga side = Scam Planned from the start. Bill never had intention of paying etc. Couldn't even be bothered to turn up at trial, etc.

Evidence? None. We have court cases that went with default judgements because nobody from Amiga could afford legal action (Something MANY companies took advantage of in order to expolit the situation. BBRV stands out very clearly in my mind here).

Because no actual trial of evidence took place, we don't know if what has been claimed (including the recent comments about Bill at Xmas in the office) is true or if it is somebody with a grudge (which clearly all involved have) wishing to spead more FUD in order to achive some measure of revenge. (Samface has included a posting from Gary Peake recently which contradicts one such claim)

You may take the view they are telling the truth, but you want me to be explicitly clear using factual evidence to back up my side, so the same rules should be applied to both of us.

Kent Center: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start. Dirty tricks.

Evidence? Nothing. Amiga have given a statement to say they were unhappy with the conditions of the deal and decided to withdraw their offer and no legal action has been taken by the City of Kent to prove this statement wrong.

Plenty of comments were made by members of the public with a great deal of Amiga knowledge showing outrage about the deal during and after - followed by members of the council following suit (What a surprise, a politicial jumping on a band wagon), but nothing has happened since that supports any fraud.


OS4 legal battle: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start simply to spite Hyperion and all faults to cause of the legal case is firmly at the gates of Amiga Inc. All statements about OS5 and new hardware partners are only in place to add spice to Amigas claims they want to develop the OS futher in order to swing the jury.

Evidence? Nothing. Amiga have made numerous public statements over the years which indicates Hyperion have been the ones not wishing to resolve this matter outside the courts. Evidence in the trial so far supports this.

Since the courtcase is about ownership of an existing technology and has nothing to do with the future direction of the software, OS5 and ACK development will provide no advantage to Amigas argument and as such is irrelevant to the case and therefore irrelevant to the jury.

OS5/AA2: Anti-Amiga side = Pathetic. (Better than OSX? Bah phooey!) The AA needs to run on windows and is just intent rebranded.

Evidence? Nothing. One blog post mentions a private conversation that may or may not have happened and that is contradicted by the only official statements so far released.

Nobody who has not signed an NDA has ever used AA2 and OS5 has been identified as a seperate product to AA2, so nobody has any idea what either software is capable of.


If we are going to stick to facts and evidence, then lets play fair. You have to follow the same rules as I do.


Quote:

Quote: I don't think we (the community) are an integral part of their immediate plans and so I don't expect matters to improve till AA is a success. Lets explore this idea a bit though. First is that the community creates a lot of content on the internet on this subject. Dosen't it make sense to do the simple things necessary to achieve a better relationship with the community so that the more general critical nature of that content makes way to more supportive content. Because now we are talking not just about potential investors, we are talking about potential platform programmers, and customers *outside* of the community for the AA line.

But that is assuming the Amiga community voice is still big enough to be important. We are not.

Look around the Amiga forums. They are full of bitter comments and widely ranging views on almost every subject. This is a long way from the days when the Amiga community would be considered an asset.

Why would ANY company waste time an effort on such a mess? This is the old problem where humans entirely overrate their importance on the net. Every subject known to man has a forum about it with individuals who think they should be listened to simply because they have an opinion.

"Oh my TV show has been axed! Lets rise up with a petition and bring down Fox!"

I'm afraid the days when the Amiga community was powerful enough to influence the marketplace are long gone. We are just tired and bitter grumpy old men, winging about the world now.

10 years ago then yeah, Amiga should listen to the community (And they did). Now?


Quote:

If some guy who ran across one of the Digital Experience YouTube videos, or was at the event themselves did a simple Google after having interest it might not continue to be so inspiring. As it is there are already negative articles from multiple newspapers, one a major regional over the Kent thing and then the whole lawsuit thing to boot.

And why is this?

What was the reason for the negitive publicity about the Kent Center in the first place?

You guessed it, the Amiga community. Or rather a small vocal minority that are not opposed to using dirty tricks in their efforts to show Amigas dirty tricks.

You personaly are among the first to blanket post the forums with negitive views on any recent news or press release from Amiga.

If I do a search in your posts (I'm doing it now), I'm overwelmed by the negative posts you spit out. I am unable to find a post with a negitive subject about Amiga without finding several of your posts in it.

If I kept spitting in your face, just how long would you remain standing in front of me before you decided, enough is enough and stood elsewhere?

(Taking that analogy further - I'm using "you" to mean the anti-amiga inc community)

Quote:

Why the hell wouldn't you, as Amiga, want to spend the *little bit of time and effort needed* to start setting things straight?

Because you keep spitting in my face everytime I open my mouth to say anything.

Quote:

And lets not forget, if they did not care about community opinion at all why publish an open letter to us and leave it on the front of Amiga.com for months, for anyone going there to read?

Because you spitting in my face everytime I open my mouth and everytime I try to approach companies with some serious offers, their attention is drawn to the spit all over my face. I'm trying to make you stop so that I can conduct my business unmolested and free of spit.

Quote:

Hell for someone who is not aware of goings on in the community it will sure easily lead them to find out.

Sadly yes. Because you spit on my face in as many public places as you can and no matter what I try to do, I'm always having to explain why I have spit on my face.

Quote:

Turning us from being down on them generally to neutral at a minimum would at least start to help clean-up those google search results and with the little effort needed its a win-win.

Everytime we try, you spit on us. If I ignore you, perhaps you'll run out of spit so that when I come back with a product that you would actually be interested in, the silent majority behind you can come forward without risking being covered in spit also.

Quote:

We are happier and then the chance of AA2 success is increaesed in general, whether they expect us to be part of that customer base or not.

So stop spitting then.

(This was more of a "fun" analogy than a serious point. I'm not wanting to get drawn into another heavy convesation about the same old subjects we've talked about endlessly, or will talk about endlessly.)

Quote:

Quote: Yes, we could prove to be an enormous input to the succes of AA if they allowed us to, but as you and others have pointed out many times, the community hold them with very little regard so it makes much more sense for them to find willing programmers in India than the community that pickets outside their gate. I have also pointed out, many times, and I am far from the only one, that the community does want to see the brand name succeed, they do want to see a patching up of things, and that steps in that direction don't require much effort on their part. Grassroots campaigns can have a lot of power to help a firm, its like getting people marketing for you for free. And sadly, with your bit about Indian programmers, they have given us little reason to trust that is so, with none of the coming soon products ever getting done that are assigned to ADI (Whackforce, etc). The apply now link on ADI's site not working for ages and ages even though they have been notified of it. And they have made a point say they have people working from home not in India, recently making a press release on one of them. So why would they not want to entice more by good relations with us when their most recent programming staff addition was from our ranks essentially?

Joking aside with my about analogy, I expect they are fed up of every step they take towards giving us what we want (A desktop OS) becoming a huge struggle. For as long as OS4 is tied up in legal battles and OS5 is in development, they are not going to have a product the community is interested in. How many developers from Amigaland did AA1 attract? I'm guessing from the Indian acquisition, not enough.

Thats where there focus is, because thats where the money is. If they don't succeed there, there wont be a desktop OS for us because there won't be an Amiga Inc.

It was clear from day one that the community didn't share Fleecys dream with the DE so they (IMHO) planned to spring it on us in the form of OS5 (with DE/AA intergrated) so that we would see what they were intending is better than a simple desktop OS. Without the DE/AA, OS5 isn't really relevant to them, so it makes perfect sense for them to put all their efforts into AA and worry about OS5 and the Amiga community once that is done.

The purpose of the press releases is to make sure we (the community) know that they havn't forgotton about us. I was rather hopeful that since they were talking about OS5 in real terms, we had reached the point where they had aimed at all those years ago.

Now that they are actively out in the big world showing off AA as a finished (or nearly finished) product, this re-enforces my view that OS5 has been under development for some time as it fits in with the origional goals.

Yes, they have slipped on yet another deadline and this again looks bad on them, but even so, the fact they are going public with AA2 shows that they have been very active behind closed doors which pleases me greatly because it bears out my views that Amiga Inc is going to finaly deliver what they promised a decade ago.

Only now with the development of OS5 does the Amiga community have something to offer THEM, so I expect once they have done the rounds showing off AA2, there will be more emphasis on us.


Note: I may have wandered a bit in this post. I've been interupted several times during writing this by drunken fools who think just because something fantastic has happened in my personal life, it means I should begin drinking lots of alchohol this early in the day.

They have won the argument.

_________________
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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

We have court cases that went with default judgements because nobody from Amiga could afford legal action (Something MANY companies took advantage of in order to expolit the situation. BBRV stands out very clearly in my mind here).

You are joking, right?

Quote:

It was clear from day one that the community didn't share Fleecys dream with the DE so they (IMHO) planned to spring it on us in the form of OS5 (with DE/AA intergrated) so that we would see what they were intending is better than a simple desktop OS. Without the DE/AA, OS5 isn't really relevant to them, so it makes perfect sense for them to put all their efforts into AA and worry about OS5 and the Amiga community once that is done.

Finally, we agree about something. We are only about seven years behind schedule...

Maybe, one day we will agree about this too:



Take care.

R&B

_________________
genesi

@bbrv



Bill, you were the single biggest reason why Amiga finaly got itself together and began defending its IP and repuation from all those who thought they could take advantage of the silence. Do you really want people to drag up all those posts you've made in the last 10 years and remind everyone exactly what you did and said?

I'm guessing you probably don't...

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Bill, you were the single biggest reason why Amiga finaly got itself together and began defending its IP and repuation from all those who thought they could take advantage of the silence. Do you really want people to drag up all those posts you've made in the last 10 years and remind everyone exactly what you did and said? I'm guessing you probably don't...

OMG, you haven't learned a damn thing yet, have you? It wasn't BBRV that has screwed your little world up, it was Allan and Ben/Evert. Or can't you except reality? Wake the F up and smell the coffee! You are starting to remind me of ST-TOS #70, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" episode.

_________________
Dammy

@TheDaddy

"Can I see it and touch it? No? Then it doesn't exist."

Now.. Lets not get into a religious discussion here

Amiga Inc. has worked long and hard for many years to earn their reputation.

LOL

The fact that they have never contributed to help grass roots Amiga programming efforts speaks volumes about their intent.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@SpaceDruid

OMG.....

Fleecy, is that you ?

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@Manu

Wait a minute, HE is Fleecy now? Aw man, that hurts. I thought I was Fleecy. I bet you say that to all of us that doesn't join the Amiga-hunt with our pitch forks...

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@DiscreetFX

That's right, defend your lack of facts with built up over time hearsay. It's after all much better to trust than actual facts. When someone's reputation has been built over a long enough period of time, facts matter no more. Gotcha!

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Mr_DBUG

Quote:

Mr_DBUG wrote: @TheDaddy "Can I see it and touch it? No? Then it doesn't exist." Now.. Lets not get into a religious discussion here

Religion? I can't see religion nor touch it, therefore it must not exist.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@damocles

Quote:

OMG, you haven't learned a damn thing yet, have you? It wasn't BBRV that has screwed your little world up, it was Allan and Ben/Evert.

Did you bother to read my post or did you just see what you percieved to be a pro-Amiga post and decide to attack it on principle?

I never said Buck broke Amiga, I'm saying he exploited the situation when Amiga was already broken to his own ends. It resulted in a smaller fractured community and lots of bad blood that persists to this day.

(which you are a clear example of).

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

I never said Buck broke Amiga, I'm saying he exploited the situation when Amiga was already broken to his own ends. It resulted in a smaller fractured community and lots of bad blood that persists to this day. (which you are a clear example of).

See, right there you made a huge error. BBRV is with the, "The People's Front of Judea"" while I'm with, "The Popular Front of Judea." See, that is just your elitist attitude along with the rest of your "The Judean People's Front" palls have!

_________________
Dammy

@samface

How do you know he's not ?

Amiga hunt....

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@Manu

Quote:

Manu wrote: @samface How do you know he's not ?

What did I claim about whom?

Quote:

Amiga hunt....

Yes, it is a laughable matter. Say anything about Bill McEwen or Fleecy Moss that doesn't comply with the general opinion of them as the minions of satan himself and have the wrath of the church of Amiga all over you. No matter how much people points out the lack of facts to support the conspiracy theories thrown about, another theory simply replaces the other where the implication of them as evil remains the same. First people say it's all a part of a carefully thought out plan to scam us all, then when that doesn't make sense people say it's their incompetence, a complete contradiction to the previous theory. Personally I'm more inclined to agree with the latter, although I would allow some of the blame on plain and simple misfortune too. Not *everything* is their doing, you know.

In any case, it remains clear that we're lacking quite alot of objective reasoning here. Now, the arguments in favor of them as satan's minions has been stated enough times already. Stop thinking that you might contribute anything constructive to the debate by stating it once more. It would be in my opinion much more interesting to hear *anything* that you might think would NOT be there fault to prove your ability to reason objectively.

Last edited by samface on 10-Feb-2008 at 04:55 PM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

SPLITTERS!!!

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Randal Graves - "Clerks"