@fairlanefastback
I'm certainly not saying that I have any faith in Amiga Inc, or am waiting for their products/announcements, but they ARE showing a more consistent PR "surge" in the last month or so, which at least means they seem to be coming out of hibernation (again).

Without any personal stake in their plans, I am merely curious as to what they will do this time. Call it morbid curiosity if you will. Plus I always had an interest in Fleecy's ideas, and there is always an extremely small possibility they might actually pull the rabbit out of the hat this time (only to fall flat on their face, most likely, but it will at least be interesting to watch).

Rest assured, I will continue to deride McEwan's flights of fancy

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BTW, what makes you say "we will soon find out if" AA2 is for real or not? Is there some new self imposed deadline they have given? How do we know we will know this soon?

Well, they say that their SDK is now available (perhaps not quite in time for McEwan's CES announcements, but that can be put down to usual Amiga Inc or more likely McEwan's incompetence). You may have to sign an NDA before you can get it, but I don't expect that to stop some of the people who frequent Moo Bunny (so maybe that place has a use after all).

Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Feb-2008 at 07:52 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Feb-2008 at 07:51 PM.

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@ChrisH

Quote:

Well, they say that their SDK is now available

Yes I'm very curious about developer's opinions on it. Last I heard several people had trouble downloading it. One person, with a low post count here (but a longstanding account) said he had it and was already using it on a project, but he almost sounded like he was implying he had it ahead of release, so I take what he said with a grain of salt. If a few developers the Amiga community at large knows can at least validate that its real and usable for its stated purpose (in a manner not violating an NDA) that would be a very positive sign.

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I'm certainly not saying that I have any faith in Amiga Inc, or am waiting for their products/announcements, but they ARE showing a more consistent PR "surge" in the last month or so, which at least means they seem to be coming out of hibernation (again).

I agree this is likely a good thing. Either they intend to do something for real this time, which is forward movement, a definite positive, or its just some ploy to get more investors in and/or to scare Hyperion. But at least if thats the case with time we'll see one way or the other. They've been the boy who cried wolf many times before. I think if they do it again many of us will finally walk away this time. But I'm all for them pulling off some sort of redemption.

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@samface

Quote:

@fairlanefastback Quote: fairlanefastback wrote: Whats the point on taking on Java with so little chance of sucess with not much better to offer, assuming this is even the truth? This argument has been floating around unchallenged for way too long now, time to set a few things straight. The Java comparison is simply way off, neither AmigaAnywhere or the AmigaDE was ever comparable to the JavaVM for any of it's intents or purposes. A more appropriate comparison would be with a Hypervisor like VirtualPC or VMware. You see, while a JavaVM or a .NET environment abstracts the OS making applications OS independant, a Hypervisor even abstracts the hardware, making applications not just OS independant but also hardware independant.

That is wrong, both Java and .NET platforms abstract both the OS and the hardware. From what is known AmigaAnywhere is in direct competition with these technologies.

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Programs written for the .NET Framework execute in a software environment that manages the program's runtime requirements. This runtime environment, which is also a part of the .NET Framework, is known as the Common Language Runtime (CLR). The CLR provides the appearance of an application virtual machine, so that programmers need not consider the capabilities of the specific CPU that will execute the program. ... The CLI and C# have many similarities to Sun's JVM and Java. They are strong competitors. Both are based on a virtual machine model that hides the details of the computer hardware on which their programs run. Both use their own intermediate byte-code, Microsoft calling theirs Common Intermediate Language (CIL; formerly MSIL) and Sun Java bytecode.

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The (Java) platform is not specific to any one processor or operating system, but rather an execution engine and a compiler with a set of standard libraries which are implemented for various hardware and operating systems so that Java programs can run identically on all of them.

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@fairlanefastback

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fairlanefastback wrote: @samface This is all well and good, but we are talking about AA2. And from the FAQ at Amiga.com there is no clear indication that your theory is correct.

Well, considering that AA2 is after all a successor to AA1, AA1 is the natural point of reference. But sure, maybe AA2 isn't even compatible with AA1 and not even hardware independant, what do we know? But then they wouldn't be taking on Java nor VMware, now would they? To make the assumption that they are taking on Java and/or VMWare is to make the kind of assumption that I am arguing with here.

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: Well, considering that AA2 is after all a successor to AA1, AA1 is the natural point of reference. But sure, maybe AA2 isn't even compatible with AA1 and not even hardware independant, what do we know? But then they wouldn't be taking on Java nor VMware, now would they? To make the assumption that they are taking on Java and/or VMWare is to make the kind of assumption that I am arguing with here.

If you are arguing with assumption being used then you should be the first one not to make assumptions about the relationship between AA1 and AA2. Especially since they said AA2 is not based on Tao, the basis of AA1.

In one video interview about AA2 the interviewer made a comparison to Java and asked what the differentiation was between AA2 and it. Bill answered directly on the difference-maker in his mind. He did not discount the comparison at all, rather he used it to tout what he felt was the edge over Java. And this FAQ on amiga.com, while it does not mention Java specifically as the "well established" competition, from the video interview it seems to fit with the Java comparison he was open to, captured on video. I'm guessing you did not see the video yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2bofFSjPEc

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@all

Just a suggestion.
Post your questions to ghauber here:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25250&forum=17

He is treated with respect here and may be able to answer your questions.

#6

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Whats the point of taking on VMware with so little chance to beat VMware and the other already established players in that space?

Good point. Let's all throw away anything we like that is not mainstream, it's pointless anyway, right?

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Amiga Development India can't even finish Whackforce. How are a few guys working from home for AI going to blow away Sun or VMware? Look at the lack of management we've seen from this company.

Wether they will be able to succeed or not is an entirely different issue, all I'm saying is that what they are doing (or trying to do) is far from the same as just another JavaVM. In fact, Amiga Inc.'s original strategy from 2000 has now, several years later, become the strategy of the already established players in the market. So, either Amiga Inc. are, as you say, simply not doing it right. Or, maybe they were just ahead of their time? Maybe they do not have the resources like the already established players in the market? Regardless, it tells me that they do have the right idea. It's NOT just another Java-like solution and it's NOT pointless.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@dimitros

You'r basicly saying that sending a letter by ordinary snail mail and sending it by e-mail is the same thing because both techniques delievers letters. There is a huge difference. Read up about Hypervisor technology and then lets talk again.

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: samface wrote: Well, considering that AA2 is after all a successor to AA1, AA1 is the natural point of reference. But sure, maybe AA2 isn't even compatible with AA1 and not even hardware independant, what do we know? But then they wouldn't be taking on Java nor VMware, now would they? To make the assumption that they are taking on Java and/or VMWare is to make the kind of assumption that I am arguing with here. If you are arguing with assumption being used then you should be the first one not to make assumptions about the relationship between AA1 and AA2. Especially since they said AA2 is not based on Tao, the basis of AA1.

So, why are you making the assumption that it is just another another JavaVM-like solution again?

Quote:

In one video interview about AA2 the interviewer made a comparison to Java and asked what the differentiation was between AA2 and it. Bill answered directly on the difference-maker in his mind. He did not discount the comparison at all, rather he used it to tout what he felt was the edge over Java. And this FAQ on amiga.com, while it does not mention Java specifically as the "well established" competition, from the video interview it seems to fit with the Java comparison he was open to, captured on video.

How about if you read up about Hypervisor technology too? As the metaphor I used when responding to dimitros, a Hypervisor and a JavaVM are about as similar as sending a mail by ordinary snail mail and sending it by e-mail. It does the same job but in a quite significantly different manner. To make it short, it's about where the application runs; in the application level, utilizing the hardware drivers of the host OS, or directly on the hardware, using it's own hardware drivers.

The latter is a very Amiga-like approach to me since AmigaOS always was an exokernel-like OS that gives applications direct access to the hardware and the ability to use their own hardware optimisations. You know, an OS with an exokernel would be the ideal host OS for a Hypervisor, now wouldn't it? I wonder why Amiga Inc. is so eager to get their hands on the AmigaOS4 sources...

...not to start any rumours or anything. :P

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I'm guessing you did not see the video yet.

You guessed wrong and it makes no bearing to my point.

Last edited by samface on 05-Feb-2008 at 11:59 PM.

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

...they said AA2 is not based on Tao, the basis of AA1

Has anyone been able to qualify this?

It's surprising to me that Amiga hasn't offered any public details on the SDK and if anyone has applied for a developer license they haven't said boo about it. Surely everything isn't so top secret that it's covered under the NDA.

I thought for sure that Amiga had secured part of the Tao IP when the firm imploded and I wouldn't be surprised if the new company that resurfaced is involved in some capacity. The likelihood of Amiga independently replacing AA from the ground up seems dubious.

@ne_one

You will have to ask on of those 3000 developers, LOL.

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@samface

Quote:

You guessed wrong and it makes no bearing to my point.

Actually it does. If you don't get that I can't help you. Bill was open to a Java comparison and elucidated on it. Now we have a FAQ, born out of the questions raised by what was put out in the media and trying to clarify those questions from this publicity that further addressed the issue of why they feel its still worth taking on the "well established" competition.

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How about if you read up about Hypervisor technology too?

I don't see a lot of reason to at this time since the only comparison they have broached is with Sun's Java.

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@samface

Quote:

Good point. Let's all throw away anything we like that is not mainstream, it's pointless anyway, right?

Condescending, sarcastic, and caustic as ever I see. Between the Kent disaster, the ACK machines never coming disaster, the ongoing inability to get Whackforce and other ADI products completed I'm not too inspired by their chances. The few people they seem to claim to have in programmers spread across the world working from home better be super-productive geniuses. But they need the management skills too. And all indications have been they don't have that.


Quote:

It's NOT just another Java-like solution

We haven't even had reliable independent verification it really exists (IMHO) as what they say it is, which isn't much, yet you know enough to make this statement? LOL!

I'm dying for a bunch of skilled programmers to get on here and say its real and its got promise and its a bright fresh idea. I'm not against seeing that at all. Despite what you might want to think I'd be happy to see that. Let me know when that happens and I'm all ears.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: You guessed wrong and it makes no bearing to my point. Actually it does. If you don't get that I can't help you. Bill was open to a Java comparison and elucidated on it. Now we have a FAQ, born out of the questions raised by what was put out in the media and trying to clarify those questions from this publicity that further addressed the issue of why they feel its still worth taking on the "well established" competition.

For the third time, while delivering mail by ordinary snail mail does the same job as sending mail by e-mail, the difference lies with how it's done. So yes, while you can make a comparison to Java, that would only be to point out the differences. I thought I was being clear but I guess not. If you don't get that I can't help you.

Quote:

Quote: How about if you read up about Hypervisor technology too? I don't see a lot of reason to at this time since the only comparison they have broached is with Sun's Java.

Too bad, you'd see the reasons if you did.

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: Good point. Let's all throw away anything we like that is not mainstream, it's pointless anyway, right? Condescending, sarcastic, and caustic as ever I see. Between the Kent disaster, the ACK machines never coming disaster, the ongoing inability to get Whackforce and other ADI products completed I'm not too inspired by their chances. The few people they seem to claim to have in programmers spread across the world working from home better be super-productive geniuses. But they need the management skills too. And all indications have been they don't have that.

Hey, you asked whether there would be any point to offering an alternative to already established products. It was a really poor argument that got the response it deserves. What you're doing here is just finding new arguments rather than supporting the original argument. Sorry, I'm not going to pursue another debate about Amiga Inc.'s broken "promises", failed deliveries nor try to make any conclusions about their credibility. We've had plenty of those threads in the past already, go check out the archives on ANN.lu if it's still up or something.

Quote:

Quote: It's NOT just another Java-like solution We haven't even had reliable independent verification it really exists (IMHO) as what they say it is, which isn't much, yet you know enough to make this statement? LOL!

Good thing you're never condescending, sarcastic, and caustic, right?

Quote:

I'm dying for a bunch of skilled programmers to get on here and say its real and its got promise and its a bright fresh idea. I'm not against seeing that at all. Despite what you might want to think I'd be happy to see that. Let me know when that happens and I'm all ears.

How about a link to YOUR post where YOU acknowledge the existence of AA2 after getting it confirmed by an AA2 developer:
Right here

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Well its interesting to hear of someone confirming the existence of AA2 as a real product.

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_________________
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Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

As I said I am dying for a NUMBER (i.e. bunch, hell, a few even) of known skilled programmers to confirm this SDK as having real promise and that its indeed a fresh idea. Guys who have apps we know so we can be confident its true and have a sense its reliable, not only that something exists, but its something like what they are saying it is. That in no way conflicts with me saying "well its interesting to hear of someone confirming the existence of AA2 as a real product". Thats pretty obvious I think.

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Good thing you're never condescending, sarcastic, and caustic, right?

Never? Of course not, sometimes in my life I surely have been regrettably. And when I have been I hope at the least not to have been the first in a conversation. You on the other hand, very often, and without any provocation from what I see. Its merely my opinion.

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@samface

Quote:

For the third time, while delivering mail by ordinary snail mail does the same job as sending mail by e-mail, the difference lies with how it's done.

This is all well and good but unless you have seen AA2 under the hood how can you make an assertion that Java is not a fair comparison when its the one Bill McEwen himself addressed. He did not say its not comparable, or not a good comparison even and offer something else as a comparison instead. Also technical differences don't always translate in to the difference in the market that a product serves. And BTW if you do know whats under the hood of AA2 because you are a developer using it please just say so.

Quote:

Too bad, you'd see the reasons if you did.

Since the only comparison addressed by Amiga, Inc. is to Java and you don't work for Amiga why should I adopt your theory that something like VMWare is a better comparison? Reading up on the technology behind VMWare may make me more aware of the differences between it and Java. But AA2 is not documented to the public enough to say your theory is at all right, that something like VMWare is more like AA2 than Java is. I find it very odd when guys project what they hope new Amiga products will be onto stuff we don't have too much info on. We have to go with what we know. What we know is that they addressed a Java comparison on some level. Thats it.

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@ne_one

Quote:

With regard to recent comments about Tao and Intent, the reality is that Amiga does not support Intent and we have not since before Tao was forced into receivership. We have been working on our “AA2” solution for Amiga Anywhere. We wanted to keep quiet about it until the SDK and documentation were completed and made public when it was ready to ship. However, because of recent posts where incorrect statements have been made, we want to let you all know that Amiga Anywhere is not dependent on intent and that the new solution is in the pipeline .

http://www.amiga.com/news/?art=32

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

One person, with a low post count here (but a longstanding account) said he had it and was already using it on a project, but he almost sounded like he was implying he had it ahead of release, so I take what he said with a grain of salt.

I take it you mean me ;)

Yes, I had it ahead of the release to SDA developers. The reason for that, though, is I have a contract with Amiga Inc. That's why I said in the other thread that the licensing for the stuff I'm developing will be handled by Amiga Inc.

(Speaking of low post counts... I literally doubled my post count by participating in that thread!)

_________________

@fairlanefastback

Thanks... at least this eliminates the Intent part of the uncertainty.

Perhaps PR2 will offer more information than PR1, which clearly tells us nothing.