@Tomppeli

Quote:

I think we need some important features first before swithing to any other CPU architecture.

i think if any switch was in the works, it would be better to switch before adding more and more stuff to the os, thus adding them to an possible new hardware would crave less porting issues..



i do not mind ppc at all, just wish it was cheaper and the motherboards uptodate..
i want to get one more amiga computer, still got my a1200 and a4000, i read this board everyday, most likly i will buy an sam440 pretty soon

actually one of the things i miss most now is an really amiga like caseing,
i would love the idea to put an sam motherboard in an walkerstyled case...
wasn't the guy who made the walker case posting here some 1 year ago or something regarding he still had the rights to that case?

of course os and motherboards etc are top prio, but still an real amiga feeling to an case, then to use all these boring generic atx cases, thats one of the things i really like about mac is that their cases just feel and looks good, genuine feeling of something good.

or atleast someone cast or cnc machine out an case front to use with an brand of cases,
i want a little more then just an small amiga badge, would be real nice to make the case scream amiga so its not just an generic case that could aswell have an pc inside running windows...

dupe

Last edited by Daemon on 10-Jun-2009 at 10:59 PM.

@Hans

Quote:

While selecting a restricted set of hardware is obviously the way to go, it's not going to stop people from moaning that it doesn't work on the motherboard that they just pulled out of a bin somewhere, or that it only half works on a motherboard that was not in the supported list. Most people would still have to buy a motherboard for Amiga OS, so it's not 90 Euro vs 700.

Even if you had to renew your hardware you could still be able to install Windows and Linux. Look at the x86 Macs... they sell quite well because once you spend the money in the computer you could also run WindowsXP if you really needed to.

If I needed to buy a new laptop I would choose one with the hypothethic x86 compatible specs. If just the PPC scenario was available I would always need to spend a lot of money and it wouldn't allow me to run WinXP or OSX. We agree that the point in buying an Amiga is running AmigaOS but since AmigaOS lacks certain apps you may need to switch to OSX or XP from time to time.

The Ben Hermans theory about the danger of running on the same hardware as competitors OSes is flawed... if the user got "trapped" by windows so easily he wouldn't buy an OS4 computer/OS at all.

My main concern about running on x86 hardware is missing compatibility with m68k apps and having to run them on top of UAE. But the arguments about supposed PPC superiority or the army of amiga pirates that fear running multiple OSes in the same machine is ridiculous.

Linux did not just became popular due to being open source, it also became popular because most of users could try it easily: if you bought a computer to run Linux and later needed to run WinXP you could still install WinXP.

Since Hyperion are specialists in porting games we should guess that they know very well how to avoid writting hardcoded software and that if they took out Petunia and ARexx most of the OS could be recompiled to run on a limited range of x86 based hardware in a pair of months.

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@Cool_amigaN

>Photoshop and Firefox and finally place an OS4 desktop wallpaper on it?

This was exactly what i was thinking - thank you

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X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@Daemon

Quote:

i would love the idea to put an sam motherboard in an walkerstyled case...

My God that was one of the ugliest designs ever made.....how can you even think that??? - just go and chop of the head of your old vacumcleaner, and there you got it!

@crumble

x86 is filled with other OS candidates, and making AOS running there too, just not gives that special feeling like running PPC. After all the Amiga has always been special

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

I liked the walker case. A bit more rounded edges a few blue lights and it would have been ahead of it's time.

...and a computer looking like a vacuum cleaner well THAT would be special

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@Cool_amigaN Quote:

Why not just buy an ultra cheap x86 pc ... install Windows or Linux, setup a few apps like OpenOffice, Photoshop and Firefox and finally place an OS4 desktop wallpaper on it? That will look exactly like the Amiga many users from the forum want: x86 cpu, cheap, fast with modern apps!

I can think of two answers:

1. OS4 is more responsive & in general nicer to use than Windows/Linux (although it does still have some down sides at the moment, e.g. lack of full memory protection). If you don't understand this answer, then there is no point discussing anything.

2. Because running Linux ports on OS4 is NOT the desired end-result, but rather just a temporary stepping stone: Linux ports are the quickest way of making OS4 compatible with the rest of the world (so allowing people to use OS4 for real things & thus justify buying it), but Linux ports have the down side of being bigger & slower than native OS4 apps. So eventually we will hopefully see more native apps like Cinnamon writer, but that needs a larger user & developer base - which means we have to (temporarily) put-up with lots of Linux ports.

Last edited by ChrisH on 11-Jun-2009 at 01:38 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 11-Jun-2009 at 01:36 PM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

[quote]
Since Hyperion are specialists in porting games we should guess that they know very well how to avoid writting hardcoded software and that if they took out Petunia and ARexx most of the OS could be recompiled to run on a limited range of x86 based hardware in a pair of months.
[/quite]
Seeing it took them 5 (five!) years to make OS4 correctly run on PPC hardware... I wouldn't count on months for an x86 port...

Yes, there are game porters specialists... porting a game, and porting an OS are two different things.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Crumb Quote:

Since Hyperion are specialists in porting games we should guess that they know very well how to avoid writting hardcoded software and that if they took out Petunia and ARexx most of the OS could be recompiled to run on a limited range of x86 based hardware in a pair of months.

Absolutely, and I doubt many would question that (IIRC Rogue has even confirmed it would be possible). But the problem is that an x86 version of OS4 will have almost zero apps (*) - not a very appealing prospect! Which is why PPC JIT is necessity, yet apparently too expensive to do.

(* = since getting many OS4 apps recompiled for x86 will not be possible (e.g. developer gone or unwilling to do the port), never mind the huge library of 68k apps that has still not been replaced yet by native OS4 equivalents.)

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@Leo Quote:

Seeing it took them 5 (five!) years to make OS4 correctly run on PPC hardware... I wouldn't count on months for an x86 port...

OS3 was not designed to be portable to non-Amiga hardware, let alone a different CPU. But Hyperion has spent a lot of effort moving the hardware-dependant code into the HAL, with a relatively small amount of (CPU specific) assembler required. Not saying it will be easy, but it's not as hard as you suggest.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@thread,

Has any progress been made by the horrible pirates that try to run AmigaOS4.1 on the MacMini lately?

What do any of you think the chances of Hyperion & the AmigaOS Dev Team changing their minds and restarting work on porting AmigaOS4.x to the MacMini?

I know that we have the SAM440ep and flex now, and there are some who do not think it is politically correct to discuss the MacMini port and we should all just buy a SAM and be happy with it, but I do not fit into that mold. I would like to have a bit more power to run AmigaOS4.x on, and I think that Hyperion and the AmigaOS4.x Dev Team could make a lot of money if they would port AmigaOS4.x to all of the PPC Mac models, including the fastest Power Macs and all the PPC Mac laptops, but I doubt it will happen. I think that the more hardware we have to run AmigaOS4.x on the better, and that it will help increase the number of users we can attract (or keep users we have) to this small niche group of users and developers who still enjoy this idea and OS that was once so far ahead of its time.

Many users want a port to x86 but that will take years to finish (IMHO), while it would take far less time to complete a port to any, or all of the old Mac PPC desktop and laptop computers, so we can continue enjoying our favorite OS while we wait for a port to x86, or something better, if it comes along.

I really don't understand any resistance to this idea. What do we have to lose, and why can't Hyperion and the AmigaOS4.x Dev Team make some good money selling just the OS without proprietary hardware or dongles?

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@amigadave

Quote:

What do any of you think the chances of Hyperion & the AmigaOS Dev Team changing their minds and restarting work on porting AmigaOS4.x to the MacMini?

Probably higher than you think but not high enough to stake your house on! It would make sense financially for Hyperion but not for ACube hence this could be a conflict in the partnership. I was surprised they released OS4.x for Classics, so I guess anything is possible

On the negative Hyperion moaned about not having the Apple reference schematics in order to do the job properly. But, if they really wanted to do it I'm sure they could reverse engineer to work out how Apple configured the ports/graphics chips etc.

Last edited by BigD on 15-Jun-2009 at 12:42 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@amigadave

Quote:

amigadave wrote: @thread, Many users want a port to x86 but that will take years to finish (IMHO), while it would take far less time to complete a port to any, or all of the old Mac PPC desktop and laptop computers, so we can continue enjoying our favorite OS while we wait for a port to x86, or something better, if it comes along. I really don't understand any resistance to this idea. What do we have to lose, and why can't Hyperion and the AmigaOS4.x Dev Team make some good money selling just the OS without proprietary hardware or dongles?

My idea of the Amigas is, and has always been, the hardware plus software combination. Having a hardware to discover, trying new ways to do the same thing faster, finding ways to go around its limitations, the surprise to find out that it can do something you thought it was impossible. We have the AmigaOnes, the Sams... how much have they been pushed so far? That's why I don't see them as dongles, rather as possibilities which would be mostly pointless on x86, and maybe on PPC Macs as well. The alternative for those willing to run AmigaOS on x86 is AROS, and in the future Anubis, so I don't think it would be a good idea to have yet another AmigaOS version for that platform. This is what I think, I don't know how many here share my views.

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

Quote:

Absolutely, and I doubt many would question that (IIRC Rogue has even confirmed it would be possible). But the problem is that an x86 version of OS4 will have almost zero apps (*) - not a very appealing prospect! Which is why PPC JIT is necessity, yet apparently too expensive to do.

Ok, let's see...

- OWB: available on x86 (already works in AROS), that's one app
- WookieChat: need an IRC client ? well, WookieChat already runs on x86
- Need a Video Player ? well, MPlayer already runs on x86
- Need a text editor ? well, there are already some working on x86
- Need some games, well all id software games plus a lot of other SDL libs are already running on x86 since SDL also runs on x86
- Need UAE to play your favorite games/Amiga software ? Well, UAE is there.. and with a JIT !
- Should I go on ?

Sure a lot of applications for which the source code is not available and/or the author is closed to an x86 port couldn't be run. But saying close to zero apps would be available is exaggerating *a lot* ! You have everything you need to start with...

Actually, the missing applications are also missing on PPC AmigaOS anyway: an up to date office suite, etc...

Btw, when I say x86, I not only mean x86, but also x86-AmigaOS since all these applications already run *today* on AROS... And all these applications would run an order of magnitude faster than on current embed/crippled PPC hardware. And you wouldn't need to spend time optimizing your video player (see SAM) in order to play a simple DVD...

Last edited by Leo on 15-Jun-2009 at 01:35 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 15-Jun-2009 at 01:34 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 15-Jun-2009 at 01:32 PM.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

Quote:

The alternative for those willing to run AmigaOS on x86 is AROS, and in the future Anubis, so I don't think it would be a good idea to have yet another AmigaOS version for that platform.

Do we need to have both AmigaOS4 and MorphOS running on the same platform ?

Should I remind you that both implement the same APIs (CGX-P96/AHI/MUI/...) with only minor changes (MUI3.x VS MUI4, MOS specific stuff VS OS4 specific stuff), run the very same machines (Pegasos2) and run the very same applications (bet it PPC/WOS stuff, or OS4/MOS apps recompiled for each OS) ?

I don't think it is a good idea either... since when it is a reason for not doing it ?

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

I also agree that OS4 for Pegasos II hasn't been a very important move, it would have been different if the Pegasos was still in production. I don't understand your last sentence though... If you think that running two similar OSes on the same hw is not a good idea, why do you question if it should be a reason for not doing it?

Varthall

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AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@pavlor

"But nobody can say, when these CPUs will be really avaiable. I lost my faith in PowerPC long time ago. What is the most powerful PowerPC CPU of our time? 970MP from the year 2005 - three times slower than Core i7."

I think the world is changing. There is a new big market for "below" 2Ghz processors. And we have reached CPU performance levels that really is "too" powerfull for 99% of computation tasks.

I personally hoped that I would have a chance to get beyond 1Ghz with my Amiga systems, but so far it has not really become possible (natively).
Clustering is the initial way to go for Amiga power solutions in the range (and beyond) Corei7.

For me, I would be totally satisfied if I could play MP4 HD videos on my Amiga. Current PPC range can do that. Too bad that the in-production Amigas can not.

"Though, I will support developement of OS4 and buy overpriced and slow hardware designed for it. I like AmigaOS, thus I can do some mad things like this."

Yet another description of a diehard amigan.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Leo

Quote:

- WookieChat: need an IRC client ? well, WookieChat already runs on x86

Haha, cool.. I'm being used as a point in someones argument. :)

But seriously, I'll recompile for any Amiga system that I can.. with the first priority being for OS4, no matter what CPU it may use.

Last edited by jahc on 17-Jun-2009 at 07:21 AM.

@Leo:
>Actually, the missing applications are also missing on PPC AmigaOS anyway: an up to date >office suite, etc...

AbiWord, Gnumeric and Gimp are available for AmigaOS4.

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AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@Hondo

Quote:

x86 is filled with other OS candidates, and making AOS running there too, just not gives that special feeling like running PPC. After all the Amiga has always been special

Other then making the end user feel stupid for paying high price for under preforming hardware (sad, but true) with issues, what does the PPC do to create a better end user experience? I bought the Amiga back when because it was a great system that was cheaper then what it would cost me to by a PC at equal capabilities. Today, the only sub 1GHz CPU based product I would buy is for either a new smartphone or a netbook that cost me ~$200 and I know I'm not alone on such purchases.

PPC is a failed arch (just ask the PPC sales dept Freescale let go) and you think it's best for a commercial OS to chain itself to arch that is no longer in development? That's a great business model to get a death grip on.

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Dammy