@feanor

Quote:

feanor wrote: @Arko I thought that many were like myself, I thought that the market was "dying" for a nice motherboard, this why I started the research. I may be a PowerPC enthusiast, but I'm not just going to spend 150k¤ (or more) for design and production, only to see a handful of people buying the boards. I *HAD* to know what the market is.

Haiku, AROS and Linux could run on PPC but they did not have any benefit from PPC, users will just have more problems getting ready compiled applications than on x86.

AmigaOS4, MorphOS and AIX are the only OSes that would need a PPC but without the official support of the OS developers, any PPC board is nearly worthless.

To be honest, the market is not dying for PPC boards, who ever is interested in a free OS for PPC (Linux, AROS) could get a used PPC board with more performance.

This might be the last chance getting a powerful new PPC board with build in expansion slots but without any chance for an OS it seems to be worthless, and Hyperion or the MOS-Team are not waiting for hardware, they had hardware enough for years and they did nothing.

If you are interested in a community big enough for a PPC niche, you should ask in the Linux community. You might find a PPC supporting minority with more potential customers than in the AOS4 or MOS community.

cu Arko

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Crumb

Quote:

remember than Amiga Inc does not allow Hyperion to distribute AmigaOS and Hyperion is breaking the law, trying to steal the rights of AmigaOS with an argument like "you asked me to change a wheel but I exchanged the car engine 4 years late so you owe me lots of millions").

This is getting way off topic. Start a new thread if you want to get into the court case please.

And for the record the court denied an injunction request to stop sales. No judge or court has declared Hyperion in violation of any law in this case.

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Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@feanor

Quote:

But to tell you the truth, what I'm seeing here is group of "rebels without cause". I see complaints everytime that "AmigaOS doesn't work on x86", "noone spends money to do it", "we don't have new (ppc or not) hardware", "AROS is not mature enough", "we are hobbyists and a niche market but why should I spend more money than my friend who got his i7 for the same amount?", etc. The list goes on. I see here a bunch of grown up teenagers, that want to go back to their youth days, playing on the Amiga and feeling as proud as they were then when they proudly showed their Amiga to their PC friends who envied. They want to do that, but they don't want to invest anything in that cause. No money, no time, no developnent (if you like AROS solution so much, why don't you help with porting apps to it).

While I agree with what you have said here to a great degree I would kindly ask that you avoid labels like "a bunch of grown up teenagers". I do think people should take to heart what an outsider honestly sees, and again I think you have a very rational perception. But throwing out a label like that is just not a good direction in relation to this board's TOS.

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote: @feanor Quote: If you don't like this, then I might as well save me the trouble and move to ARM and save myself the delay. One nice thing about going with ARM, it doesn't have the stench of death associated to it.

You are well aware that not everyone here shares this opinion. Saying you think its dead is fair. Adding this dramatic has"the stench of death" makes it look like you just trying to additionally agitate people who don't share your opinion.

If people want to debate whether ARM or PPC is better for this proposed board lets please all err on the side of civility please.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

I apologize if it sounded insulting. Perhaps it's because the Amiga userbase has seen so many vapourware products that it just does not believe anymore if someone really tries to break the status quo. I'm really not kidding, I have an official quotation from bplan full with specs/prices etc to start the design. I have a couple of potential investors that might spend money on this -along with some of my own. Ok, you tell me then how to convince these guys with just 60 mails (67 now)? How can anyone expect *anything* then? I *really* expected many more mails, I'll tell you the truth. And I expected to go to the investor with a big smile on my face "see, we expected 500, we have 1000 interested! Full with names etc". They would find it much easier to invest even one euro. But here I see 2 positive mails and 10 negative. That's not a market. Sorry, I didn't want to insult anyone, but I see now why Genesi moves to ARM and I see many more things. Anyway, the deadline still stands. If I get more than 500 mails in the next month, I'll very seriously consider it.

@feanor

No sweat. And again thanks for the effort you are putting forth on this in the first place!

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

i just really hope that nahsayers wont scary you away. im suprised as well that after years of whining coz of no new hw (not for os4 nor for mos) this geniue offer didnt make a big happy hooray from amiga ng users. but ppl were happy when underpowered sam was announced and some even welcomed the poor efika very well... strange.

maybe coz you've only posted your market research only for a few languages (english, greek and german afaik). you should ask some ppl to translate your 1st post to their langiage and spread the word (french, spanish, dutch, japanese, chinese:). i've already did translate it to hungarian and posted to 2 sites. hope you'll get some mails as well.

ppl, i really think that this is our probably last chance to get a decent desktop ppc! dont count on acube alone os4 folks, they cant save the world by themselfs:). not to mention morphos probably wont run on any of their future hw (i'll be happy if im wrong).

so anybody who wanna run any kind of amiga os, or have a new, decent ppc system, get your mailers! think about dying a1's, peg2's w/o any replacement!
act now!

@Crumb

Quote:

FYI and according to your beloved Amiga Inc, OS4 is illegal and can't be called "AmigaOS".

You can't prove it.

Quote:

OS4 was not developed by Jay Miner, David Haynie, Carl Sassenrath or any other old amiga legend.

Version 4 of AmigaOS includes source codes from the first version of AmigaOS created by Amiga legends.

Quote:

MorphOS in contrast was developed by the guys who bringed Amiga users the first RTG system, the first 060 system, the first powerpc system, the first 64bit HD solution...

After that they abandoned Amiga platform like many others.

Quote:

I heard AmigaOS3.x is better than the original and true AmigaOS1.x developed by the original Amiga Team, if AmigaOS3.x is better than the original and true AmigaOS1.x it means it's not AmigaOS

You are talking about the same operating system. It's obvious that newer version is better than old one. AmigaOS 1, AmigaOS 2, AmigaOS 3, AmigaOS 4 it's the same system with common source codes.

Quote:

nonsense

Can you run OWB for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run SRec for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run AbiWord for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run Gimp for Amiga on MorphOS? No? Why? Because MorphOS it's different platform and MorphOS is not compatible with the latest version of AmigaOS. Nonsense it is what are you talking.

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www.exec.pl, www.amigaos.pl, eXec TV

@eXec.pl

While you're entitled to your opinion about MorphOS, I'm asking you to handle this in a less confrontational manor. We don't need more OS4 vs MOS threads on this forum.

@Crumb

Same for you.

Regards,
Joachim Birging

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Common sense - So rare it's almost like a super power

@feanor

The thing is, without a guarantee that we can use the boards for anything, you're not likely to get many more than that.

If OS4 is definetly going to be supported you can put me up for two, and if MOS is definetly going to run on it I'm sure some more people will say the same.

But saying "it could theoretically run OS4 and MOS, but don't bet on it" means it's just too risky for us here. So you're gonna have to work a little harder on the politics to get a lot more definite commitments

That said, I would rather build my own very-very-cheap 8610 board (seeing as I now have experience in routing boards with DDR2), but that also requires OS4 support to be worked out... It ain't fun, I can tell you that.


So my tip for you is:
Take it easy, let the idea sink in with people.
And contact the MOS and OS4 crews about the software side.

An 8610 board WOULD beat the living crap out of the AmigaOne, the Peg and the SAM, and it wouldn't be expensive either. But until it actually runs something we're interested in, don't expect a huge crowd of worshippers. Ok?

Last edited by olegil on 29-Sep-2009 at 05:46 PM.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

I see your point yes, but...

Quote:

But saying "it could theoretically run OS4 and MOS, but don't bet on it" means it's just too risky for us here. So you're gonna have to work a little harder on the politics to get a lot more definite commitments

risky?!?!?!? What is your risk? Really, I want to know.

@feanor

Quote:

olegil wrote: But saying "it could theoretically run OS4 and MOS, but don't bet on it" means it's just too risky for us here. So you're gonna have to work a little harder on the politics to get a lot more definite commitments

Feanor,

You may not be aware but the Amiga community has had some seriously rough times. We've had fake vendors, the community itself splintered into multiple groups, we've had delays that have been otherwise unheard of. A lot of unkind words have been said between groups of people. Lawsuits between vendors and personnel have occured and still affect us. As a result of this and more the community sort of resides in its own alternative reality bubble. Being jaded does not even approach describing what has happened to many in the community.

So unlike other older platforms, where the user community is probably more on the same page and where they would be less risk adverse to backing a potential new platform, well thats simply not the case here (on the whole at least).

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 29-Sep-2009 at 05:58 PM.

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Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@feanor

Quote:

risky?!?!?!? What is your risk? Really, I want to know.

Is it your plan then that you would be able to sustain this enterprise with interested parties only buying the board once OS4 and/or MOS is already ported? If thats the case thats a lot easier. On previous hardware offerings thats not how it panned out. So thats probably why people are making that assumption.

Bottom line is the fear would be folks ending up with a PPC board that maybe runs Linux and thats possibly it. In which case it would become an extremely expensive Linux board.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 29-Sep-2009 at 06:03 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: Is it your plan then that you would be able to sustain this enterprise with interested parties only buying the board once OS4 and/or MOS is already ported? If thats the case thats a lot easier. On previous hardware offerings thats not how it panned out. So thats probably why people are making that assumption.

No, my plan is to get the board out to market and at the same time have full support for the OSes that have been selected to be supported. The reason I'm asking for emails, is because I want/NEED to know IF AmigaOS/MorphOS have enough people interested to warrant me funding the port. Unless people tell me (by sending an email as I asked) I will never know if they really want the OS on the new board. Having a user "fairlanefastback" (no offence intended) on some forum telling me "yes, I'll buy your board!" is not the same as having eg. John Smith from the UK, sending an email of interest. And of course it's not a binding contract, it's an EMAIL OF INTEREST. It will just be easier to justify the investment. With 30 AmigaOS and 30 MorphOS users sending emails, I will probably ignore both OSes and just go for a pure Linux/Haiku and choices that might otherwise affect the cpu/components decision in order to have these two OSes supported more easily, will probably be ignored. Eg. If MorphOS/AmigaOS are ignored, it makes more sense to go for a P1022, because it's cheaper, just as fast and I will not have to care about the different FPU units, or the lack of Altivec. But the Linux folks will love it as it's going to be around 350E, whereas the 8610 will be probably ~500E, due to the cpu cost but also due to the fact that P1022 is a complete SoC, including pretty much everything on chip, like SATA, USB2, dual gigethernet, and a 2D display unit.

Quote:

Bottom line is the fear would be folks ending up with a PPC board that maybe runs Linux and thats possibly it. In which case it would become an extremely expensive Linux board.

I understand that and I respect that. But I just asked for mails of interested persons. Just that. An email is not much risk, is it? Unless people are afraid that I'm going to use their email addresses for spam. Really, there are easier and faster ways to get millions of email addresses on the net :)

@evilrich

Quote:

evilrich wrote: @Samurai_Crow Totally off-topic, and I may be talking completely out of my bottom, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... Quote: Samurai_Crow wrote: [quote] The TAO group and several others were formed using information owned by Amiga Inc. in 1998. Nonsense. Tao was set up even before the death of Commodore (I'll even stoop to a Wikipedia link). When I spoke to Tao (it was 10 years ago, so my memory may be a little foggy), Chris Hinsley told me he came up with the idea for VP while porting games for 8-bit platforms (Pyjamarama was one of his, I recall). It had nothing to do with Amiga, Inc. It was just another train for the wannabe Amiga to jump on.

Yes. They combined forces because they needed somebody with prior art to the Java patents that Sun had filed.

It is rather off-topic though and quite irrelevant considering that TAO is out of business and Java and LLVM are both open-source at this point.

@feanor

Quote:

No, my plan is to get the board out to market and at the same time have full support for the OSes that have been selected to be supported.

On the AOS side this is a bit more tricky. The ownership of the OS is in dispute.

And one of those two parties has an extremely bad reputation in the community and is well known for tanking projects.

If Amiga wins any deal you make with Hyperion would likely be null and void.

So thats a big fear factor for any potential AOS user when it comes to your proposed equipment.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Point taken.

@feanor

And YOUR point taken as well. Yes, if it means no risk to us, as in we don't buy until OS4 is ported, then I'm in for one board if below 500EUR and 2 if below 400EUR. Definetly. And I already wrote you an email two days ago, so you have my email address to pin it on

(OS4 not included in costs)

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@feanor

Maybe P1022 is the best choice if it's the cheapest one and it's multicore (depending on there will be SMP in selected OSes to use both cores). I don't know how SPE compares to Altivec. 8 core one ?

_________________
Rock lobster bit me. My Workbench has always preferences. X1000 + AmigaOS4.1 FE
"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." -Seymour Cray

@feanor

Quote:

risky?!?!?!? What is your risk? Really, I want to know.

Go read up on the PowerPC laptop threads from not long ago. The guy put two very low-end PPC laptops (not Macs) on Ebay hoping some AmigaOS developer would buy them from him, or some sucker would buy them to gift to AmigaOS developers. He in particular seemed clueless as to the appropriate way to go about all that, and also seemed unwilling to be educated about it, which made him seem completely ungenuine. This and another thread proposing a bounty to buy useless x86 machines for developers feel a little familiar to that kind of thing. Doesn't mean that's your intention, and many here don't understand the risk on your end of your proposal, but we've seen it before and been burned so many times it's hard to trust anyone coming in like this.

That's not how AmigaOS port licensing works, at least not last time I asked about it. First thing is to go to Hyperion and Amiga Inc. and figure out what all the AmigaOS licensing simply to allow porting to happen is, what obligations fall on the hardware developer, fee amounts and what they're for, and factor all that into your proposal to us.

As it is, it feels like you're asking for commitments (notes of interest, whatever) to purchase a motherboard for OS4 with no guarantee that it will run OS4. The Amiga Community has been burned quite a few times, sometimes those purchase commitments have cost some of us a lot of money and they got absolutely nothing at all in return, and there've been quite a few hoaxes in our history as well such as iWin. So we're a bitter and angry bunch, a bit suspicious, and of course by definition we're opinionated as all getout and love to argue and flamewar amongst ourselves to no end. Remaning Amiga users are not necessarily completely rational people. :) Know your market, this is part of what we Amiga fans are.

Last edited by billt on 29-Sep-2009 at 09:54 PM.

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