@BigD

Quote:

Quote: Its called supporting equal human rights. Wrong again. Homosexual marriage is not a human right! The Telegraph: European Court rules that homosexual is NOT a human right Quote: the judges in Strasbourg said: "The European Convention on Human Rights does not require member states’ governments to grant same-sex couples access to marriage." With regard to married couples, the court considers that in view of the social, personal, and legal consequences of marriage, the applicants’ legal situation could not be said to be comparable to that of married couples," the judges added.

But the part of their summary that you choose to ignore is the comment Quote:

"Where national legislation recognises registered partnerships between same sex, member states should aim to ensure that their legal status and their rights and obligations are equivalent to those of heterosexual couples in a similar situation.

Meaning that there is no requirement for recognising same sex partnerships, but where they are reconised they should be of fully equal status. but of course a self styled "christian" will always cherry pick what he hears and what he is totally deaf to.

Quote:

Don't be such an arrogant atheist.

This is a clear cut a case of the pot calling the kettle black as it has ever been my displeasure to witness. Your arrogant belief that my marriage only acquired a second hand form of validity when my wife converted to christianity puts you in the same league as the Islamic court that jailed a family for fifteen years because they converted back from Islam to christianity. If you want to claim that christians are victims of persecution try doing something about that one!
You also display your arrogance when you glibly claim that other people are "not true christians" The decision of what real christian behaviour is like is best left to those who are the victims of christian atrocities to decide.

Of course, in your typical self-righteous arrogance you will ignore this post as you have done all of my others raising the true history of the expansion of christian charity.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

Your arrogant belief that my marriage only acquired a second hand form of validity when my wife converted to christianity puts you in the same league as the Islamic court that jailed a family for fifteen years because they converted back from Islam to christianity. If you want to claim that christians are victims of persecution try doing something about that one! You also display your arrogance when you glibly claim that other people are "not true christians" The decision of what real christian behaviour is like is best left to those who are the victims of christian atrocities to decide.

We talked about you and your wife before and look where that got us You threatened legal action remember? Why don't take your wife on a nice weekend away and have a few calm conversations about all your past hang ups with Christianity. Maybe you'll decide to make peace with God and learn more about her faith in Jesus Christ. That is sure to be a lot more constructive than airing your personal issues on a public forum.

People that don't attempt to study the Bible or live their lives in accordance to it are not Christians. It is quite clear in the Bible. Your naive to think a drop of Christening water or membership of the CofE is what makes you a Christian;

1 John 1:6 (New International Version)
Quote:

If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

It is quite clear by their public support of same sex marriage that the Quakers and United Reformed churches have rejected the teaching of the Bible and walk in darkness.

You keep talking about Christian atrocities and then cite atheists like Hitler. Christians organisations are biggest source of relief from suffering in the world through their aid and charity work made possible through the generous and sacrificial donations from Christians.

Individual Christians like Cromwell may have seemed to have been heavy handed in their decision making. However, Cromwell will be judged in the context of civil war and trying to do what was right for his country in a period of civil unrest. Rest assured God is the perfect judge and he like us will have to answer for his sins. The difference is Christians have Jesus as their advocate and non-Christians (including so called 'christian' people that just pay lip service to the Bible and vote for same sex marriage to be nice to liberals ) do not. Good luck calling on Dawkins for help on judgement day. Maybe your 'faith' in the big bang and string theory will save you!

_________________
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@BigD

Quote:

Maybe you'll decide to make peace with God and learn more about her faith in Jesus Christ.

So your solution to my having been insulted by a christian is for me to become a christian?

Just how closed minded and arrogant are you?

Quote:

People that don't attempt to study the Bible or live their lives in accordance to it are not Christians

Quite correct. Some of them are Jews, Some of them are Muslims, Some of them are Hindus, but ALL of them have been victims of christian arrogance torture and genocide. And to make matters worse some of the victims of christianity have been other christians.

Quote:

Your naive to think a drop of Christening water or membership of the CofE is what makes you a Christian;

Have you actually bothered to read any of my references to the history of your religion. I am not of the opinion that a drop of water turns somebody into a christian, I am of the opinion that becoming a hate filled self righteous murdering genocidal lunatic who claims to be hating in the name of love, killing in the name of eternal life and breaching every rule in a holy book stolen from "Gods chosen people" to attempt the eradication of "Gods chosen people" contributes to becoming a christian. The absolute conviction that the end justifies the means, and that a christian is allowed to commit every crime imaginable and be guaranteed hallowed status in the afterlife just proves the arrogance of evangelical "born again" christians.

Quote:

You keep talking about Christian atrocities and then cite atheists like Hitler.

Let me make this perfectly clear for you.
Hitler was a christian.
He was a christian because he was born and raised as a christian.
He was a christian because he carried out official christian policies of hate against the Jews (Remember the people that you call Gods chosen people).
He was a christian because he recieved the full support of the pope.
He was a christian because he was married by a christian priest.
He was a christian who recieved the last rites from a christian priest.
Every time you cite Hitler as an atheist you prove yourself to be a liar and a fool.

Hitler did not take part in the massacre of Jews and muslims in the temple court after the siege of Jerusalem. Nor did he have any involvement in the Albigensian crusades, or the massacre of Jews at Cliffords tower in York, or the deportation of Jews from Spain as a result of the Alhambra declaration. He merely followed the christian tradition of attacking the ones you referred to as the chosen people.

Quote:

Good luck calling on Dawkins for help on judgement day.

What makes you think that I will be calling on Dawkins for help? or is this another example of your belief that you are omnipotent and omniscient and you see your deity every time you look into a mirror.

If, instead of citing Wilberforce and Sharp as typical christians you recognised how untypical they were, and started apologising for the crimes and atrocities commited by christians in general, and yourself in particular the rest of the world would have less reason to despise you and yours.

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 09:10 AM.

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@BigD

Quote:

You keep talking about Christian atrocities and then cite atheists like Hitler. Christians organisations are biggest source of relief from suffering in the world through their aid and charity work made possible through the generous and sacrificial donations from Christians.

Hitler certainly didn't consider himself atheist. Nor did the Church. Read Mein Kampf, view the speeches, God and Christ are everywhere. In fact the Church and many Christians in the UK and the USA supported Hitler. And Hitler certainly didn't act alone. The workers loading trains and running ovens were Christians as well.

Christians doing well sometimes doesn't excuse the harm they do and have done. Crusades, Inquisition, which trials, ethic cleansing, etc. Even today we have things like Christians that encourage no condom use in the highest STD and AIDS areas in he world. What can be more caring than encouraging people to not use protections. Look at Mother Theresa and the deaths she failed to prevent because she used prayer instead of her nursing skills. Look at how she took millions gave it to the church and didn't care for the poor.

Christian giving is actually a poor way to take care of people. In the USA approx. 2% of what the church intakes go for the poor. A larger % of one's tax dollar care for the needy, closer to 30%, than that same $1 given to a church.

[img]http://www.catholicarrogance.org/Catholic/posters/hitler&nuncio.gif[/img]



I have lots of these D.

How about some quotes from his book Mein Kampf?

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich
... - Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. The great masses of a nation are not composed of philosophers. For the masses of the people, especially faith is absolutely the only basis of a moral outlook on life. The various substitutes that have been offered have not shown any result...s that might warrant us in thinking that they might usefully replace the existing denominations. ...There may be a few hundreds of thousands of superior men who can live wisely and intelligently without depending on the general standards that prevail in everyday life, but the millions of others cannot do so.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf,

Do you really still want to keep making your claims he was an atheist? You might want to use your tactic of saying he wasn't a true Christian, but you are a dirty liar if you keep trying to claim he was atheist when you can clearly see that is not true.

This isn't the first time in this thread that we have provided clear evidence that Hitler was most certainly not an atheist.

I'll remind you of what I posted just a short time ago.

So are you going to just keep doing this?

You make a post, somebody proves it to be nonsensical, you pretend the post didn't happen and make no reference to it (presumably because you have no answer for it). Then you repeat the claim,

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 19-Jan-2013 at 03:14 AM.

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@BigD

One who bears false witness against one's neighbor commits as serious a sin as if one had borne false witness against God....You might want to pray to your God to help steer you from doing more lying.

@SpaceDruid

So basically your argument is that Hitler mentions God in his book so he must be a Christian?! You really are clutching at straws! The man tried to eradicate the Jews, the race the Bible describes as God's chosen people! You are completely off the mark to say that him being raised as a Catholic makes him a Christian. He had a god complex and was more interested in fostering a cult of Hitler. That my friend is fostering idol worship. The man was a sick and power hungry, who wanted to twist every institution in Germany for his own selfish will (including the church).

Quote:

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I believe I am fighting for Lord's work.

The man has obviously never read the Bible or understood who God is. He has made a god in his own image like so many in the world today. He is not describing the Judeo-Christian God and is hence a non-Christian trying to justify his actions by citing a fictional deity of his own creation and a character that matches his own. What you call him beyond 'non-Christian' really doesn't matter. But a sick twisted atheist using religion for his own means seems the most probable explanation.

Last edited by BigD on 19-Jan-2013 at 12:00 PM.

_________________
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@BigD

Quote:

The man tried to eradicate the Jews

You say this as though the eradication of the jews directly contradicts the ethos of christianity. It doesn't it follows a long history of religious terrorism sponsored by the christian religion.
Here is a list of the acts that you are so proud of.
Here are a few extracts from the article that I just know you will refuse to read
Pre-christian pagan temples
Quote:

As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed. Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues.

Missionary evangelism
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Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that Quote: the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde . Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage.

Crusades
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after 3/June/1098 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 28/June/1098 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. Jerusalem conquered 15/July/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). In the words of one witness Quote: there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone)

Heretics
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control Exterminated
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. Exterminated
The word catharsis was used as a root for the name of the people wiped out in this crusade. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. Estimated one million victims Exterminated
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings.
Religious wars
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17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers."

20th Century
Quote:

Vietnam With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

And last, but not least the attempted eradication of the Jews. You seem to be proposing that this somehow goes against the grain for a christian. Well here is the longest quote that I will give from the article.
Quote:

Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown. In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 18/May/1096, Mainz 27/May/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear. (Sound vaguely familiar?) 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 30/June/1492. 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.

This goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz, and it demonstrates that Adolf was no different than any of the previous christians in his treatment of what you glibly refer to as "Gods chosen people"

Quote:

He has made a god in his own image like so many in the world today.

Yes, You have, and you see that image every time you look into a mirror. As a christian you are supposed to follow the teachings of christ, not give your god orders that he has to obey.

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 01:18 PM.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@Nimrod

I think one possible way that you are going to able to see that being a Christian isn't just bout wearing a What Would Jesus Do bracelet or being mates with the pope is to ponder the meaning of Rage Against The Machine: 'Killing in the Name Of'.

Interpretation of the meaning of the song
Quote:

I belive killing in the name of's meaning is hiden given to us in the title, I belive that the bands opinion was that killing is killing, and wether one kills in the name of somthing or not, it is exactly the same as killing for any other reason.

People try to justify their actions any which way they can. Capturing the holy land is not a mandate in the Bible and so the crusades cannot be said to be justifiable from the Bible. People are greedy and will try and justify their actions by claiming God is on their side despite willfully going against the Bibles teachings. Protecting marriage however should be something we can all get behind.

Last edited by BigD on 19-Jan-2013 at 01:54 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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@BigD


Quote:

People try to justify their actions any which way they can. Capturing the holy land is not a mandate in the Bible and so the crusades cannot be said to be justifiable from the Bible. People are greedy and will try and justify their actions by claiming God is on their side despite willfully going against the Bibles teachings. Protecting marriage however should be something we can all get behind.

There's the problem with your faith. We have a supposed all knowing and all loving God who is a really bad communicator. Religious people, including you, pick and choose which passages are applicable. They pick and choose which to follow. There is no agreement as to what God means. Your God, here on earth in the form of Jesus, according to your Bible said nothing whatsoever about disallowing gay marriage. The reason was it simply wasn't a topic of the region or era. But, a few hundred years later gays could get married.

The mote in your eye is you chasitize your gay neighbor while your straight neighbor is doing the same thing. Straights are really bad at being devoted to their spouse and have affairs. Unwed parents cause single family homes. If gays get married that's one less possibility of single family.

And most importantly the marriage allowed by the State is in no way impacted by any particular demands of religion. We no longer live with the church controlling religious, political, economical, and scientific means in society. We used to but the Dark Ages is over. The Dark Ages is a time in the history of men where Christian control backslid society.

You can have a straight marriage no one is in your way. You cannot demand inequity and discrimination in society. Others will stand in your way.

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Jan-2013 at 02:11 PM.

@Thread

Hopefully, we'll have one of these protests here. Maybe then you'll all understand the level of opposition to this redefinition;

BBC News: Mass Paris Rally Against Same-Sex Marriage

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

People try to justify their actions any which way they can. Capturing the holy land is not a mandate in the Bible and so the crusades cannot be said to be justifiable from the Bible. People are greedy and will try and justify their actions by claiming God is on their side despite willfully going against the Bibles teachings.

If your ancestors had spent the previous two thousand years being inventively massacred by Jedi knights, and then a Jedi told you that Jedis were all about love and kindness would you be so gullible as to actually believe him? You claim your religion to be benevolent, but the actual historical reality as outlined in my previous post is absolutely different.

Quote:

Protecting marriage however should be something we can all get behind.

The only time my marriage came under threat, it was not from a homosexual, but from a christian. The proposed amendments to marriage law are not the first amendments to marriage and just as previous amendments did not destroy marriage, this one will not do so either.
Your claims that granting full equality in law to a minority group will destroy marriage is an absolute lie.

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 02:17 PM.

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@BrianK

Quote:

You can believe that straight marriage is only for you and only for your religion. You have no right to demand that crap on me. It's between you and whatever you believe your God demands.

It's not just religious argument. Marriage it is central to our culture and a building block of our country. No culture holding homosexuality in such high esteem as advocated in this legislation has lasted very long. Learn the lessons of history or face the same consequences. equality has been achieved and same-sex partnerships are not the same thing as marriages.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

USA: 40.8% of children are raised in non-married homes. Interesting enough the gay marriage States top the charts for the largest % of children raised in a 2 married parent home.

@Nimrod

Quote:

Yous claims that granting full equality in law to a minority group will destroy marriage is an absolute lie.

Yours is the lie my friend. Marriages rates would plummet and the institution will become irrelevant as in the Netherlands and Spain. No significant numbers of homosexuals will want to have same-sex marriage ceremonies anyway and yet the litigation and suffering it will cause will not warrant the so called benefits of the controversial and unwarranted redefinition of marriage.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BrianK

Shame on the parents in those states for not sticking up for marriage then. How they can sit back and watch marriage be corrupted and undermined is beyond me. In the long run marriage rates will drop off just as the did in Spain and the Netherlands. Your stats say more about the apathy of American married couples than it says about whether marriage is under threat or not.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @BrianK Quote: You can believe that straight marriage is only for you and only for your religion. You have no right to demand that crap on me. It's between you and whatever you believe your God demands. It's not just religious argument. Marriage it is central to our culture and a building block of our country. No culture holding homosexuality in such high esteem as advocated in this legislation has lasted very long. Learn the lessons of history or face the same consequences. equality has been achieved and same-sex partnerships are not the same thing as marriages.

Other unequal building blocks have been pulled out as well - slavery, inequality of women, and in 1965 was your own law protecting minorities. These actions were in effect when you built society. Treating people as people with the right to self determination has made the UK better. As will gay marriage.

The impact of cultures by gay marriage is something you are overselling. If anything the history lesson is Christians killed the gays and destroyed those societies. hmm, no wonder people take offense at another Christian enforcing unequal ethos on gays.

You are right same-sex partnership are not the same thing as marriage. It's unequal, unfair to have two separate laws for two kinds of people. The way to treat people equally is make them comply to the same law. Separate but equal is a false concept that only a positive in a Orwellian society.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @BrianK Shame on the parents in those states for not sticking up for marriage then. How they can sit back and watch marriage be corrupted and undermined is beyond me. In the long run marriage rates will drop off just as the did in Spain and the Netherlands. Your stats say more about the apathy of American married couples than it says about whether marriage is under threat or not.

I agree. Because in States with gay marriage, marriage isn't under threat.

@BrianK

Quote:

I agree. Because in States with gay marriage, marriage isn't under threat.

Absolute lie. Marriage has been lowered in a small splattering of U.S. States to include people of the same sex thereby giving no importance to the complimentary nature of the two sexes and further damaging the link between marriage, consummation and it being the best environment to bring up children. Next you'll be spouting feminist rubbish such as a belief that there is no difference between the two sexes The two sexes are complimentary and very important for parenting and raising the next generation to relate well to both men and women.

Last edited by BigD on 19-Jan-2013 at 02:36 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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@BigD

Quote:

Marriages rates would plummet and the institution will become irrelevant as in the Netherlands and Spain

My first response to this claim is to cite a comment made by SpaceDruid Quote:

So are you going to just keep doing this? You make a post, somebody proves it to be nonsensical, you pretend the post didn't happen and make no reference to it (presumably because you have no answer for it). Then you repeat the claim,

Or to put it another way, we have already dealt with this LIE. Marriage in this country is not under threat from the principle of homosexual equality. BrianK has already convincingly demonstrated that when socio-economic conditions are equal, as in neighbouring US states, granting equal rights to homosexuals does not lead to increases in heterosexual immorality, it actually leads to an improvement across the entire community. The fall in marriage was occurring in Spain and the Netherlands anyway for reasons entirely unconnected with the homosexuals in either country.

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 02:49 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 02:48 PM.

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