@NutsAboutAmiga

Someone made the "lame" test comparing it with other platforms and 68k emulated was the same as 500 Mhz PPC

68k is a whole range of systems now, from A500 up to A4000 (with expansions), new FPGA hardware (first one FPGA Arcade and hopefully more in future), standalone UAE (FS-UAE/WinUAE running on Windows/Mac/Linux), Amithlon and the new AMINUX (that is based on my distribution) and integrated in the AROS distributions Icaros and Aeros (Aeros includes AROS Vision)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 10:32 AM.

@itix

There is nothing wrong whit AMOS Language in it self, nothing in the AMOS Language says it going to bang the hardware, if some one wanted too they might clone AMOS to run on modern hardware. If some one completes the XAMOS project the issue is solved.

Or if some one fixes AMOS, the source code is available, the code is compiled whit extremely old compiler, I found the source code on Italian site some time ago.

The point is they do not want to use anything else then Amiga1200/4000, they are stuck in the past.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 10:33 AM.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

Someone made the "lame" test comparing it with other platforms and 68k emulated was the same as 500 Mhz PPC

That was me and that was on older computer of my brother (Core 2 Q6600). Core i5-2500K can now reach performance comparable to at least G3 800 MHz.

@pavlor

great

@NutsAboutAmiga

it is not. I have integrated a extension in AMOS that is based on the "Games Master System" that both supports AGA and RTG.

Reference here:
http://www.aros-platform.de/html/game_extension.html

Why stuck in the past? 68k almost runs everywhere. PPC AmigaOS is stuck in the past (in my view)

You could see 68k as a kind of .NET, you have one platform that runs on different hardware without recompiling. You could create software that is too demanding to run on even expanded classic hardware but needs fast UAE or FPGA but i think it is possible.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 10:43 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 10:37 AM.

@pavlor

it is only a matter of time till 68k overtakes all PPC platforms

@OlafS25

Quote:

Common APIs mean we need Libraries that behave the same on all platforms and make it easy to port software.

Correct, but if software written for library or device is not hardware banging, the library or device is hardware banging, big difference, a library can be replaced, but program thats not always so easy.

Quote:

If they are written in assembler (including hardware banging) and on another platform written in C using system libraries is not important.

Open Source does not solve all problems.

Poring from 680x0 assembler to C is not that easy, even porting from 680x0 to different type of assembler can be tricky. The video toaster software has been open for years now, but no one has managed to fix the code. The Video toaster code is a mix of 680x0 code and C code.

But yes if one can get source code then many things can be fixed and improved.

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@pavlor

Do you have numbers somewhere? Ideally including expanded classic hardware (060), PPC platforms and different 68k environments? I would like to make a chart or something similar to show where 68k now is (compared to other platforms) proofing that the view 68k=slow is past.

@OlafS25

Quote:

You could see 68k as a kind of .NET, you have one platform that runs on different hardware without recompiling.

C# .Net / VB .net does not bang the hardware, yes C# / VB .net does run in a runtime, but its not the same, .NET is nothing like assembly, its C# is closers to Java or C++ then anything else.

If you like to run MSDOS/486 software in Windows7, you can't run it, you will need to install DosBOX and run it under emulation.

Quote:

You could create software that is too demanding to run on even expanded classic hardware but needs fast UAE or FPGA but i think it is possible.

Well FPGA thing wont happen, UAE has no future its will always depends on an other OS to run, it will not run on the native CPU at native speed, it will always be stuck on the fraction of the speed, it will never full take advantage of real hardware it runs on.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 12:47 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:06 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 10:56 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

one guy already is disassembling it to improve it

Game Master System:
http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/gms_user

I am not sure about the internals but I think GMS and the AMOS extension are separated so AMOS games using it do not directly hit the hardware or use RTG but the Games Master System. I think that because there is a "user" and a "dev" package on aminet and that makes no sense if the source would be compiled in the binary.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:02 AM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

who cares if it uses "all speed" if it runs on a system and is fast enough. If someone thinks about creating a software (be it application or game) he looks how many potential customers (=users) are there. He does not care if it uses every bit of the hardware. Distribution chances are more important than single technical features. Technicians often make the mistake that they overestimate certain technical features.

@OlafS25

Quote:

proofing that the view 68k=slow is past.

Its pretty bad wast to have 4 cores CPU @ 3.4Ghz that emulates a system @ 800Mhz, what huge wast of CPU power, beside the 800Mhz is slow, no video acceleration. Just try to play a HD video on it.

800Mhz is slow 3.4Ghz is not slow.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:05 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I made this comparation because .NET is creating (when you compile it) a intermediate cross-platform code that is then compiled for the platform you use. MS does not make much use of it because they want to sell their Windows but there is "Mono" that is available for different platforms (and opensource).

@NutsAboutAmiga

800 Mhz using highly-optimized libraries written in assembler is not slow. And you have most software written in 68k, there are only a handful new packages like Blender that are ported. Some people tried to port ArtEffect and StormC to AmigaOS and are still trying it (for lots of years already). On 68k you have documentation, development environments (sometimes even integrated) and applications that are not available native on AmigaOS or MorphOS. What sense do both make if they are mainly used to run 68k software?

@NutsAboutAmiga

I run DVD-Videos on it (of course UAE) but it is possible. Most components like Libraries are highly optimized (in assembler) because they were created in a time when hardware was still relative slow. That efforts do most people not today.

UAE is only a part of the picture (but important because it makes distribution easier)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:16 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:14 AM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

I am not sure about the internals but I think GMS and the AMOS extension are separated so AMOS games using it do not directly hit the hardware or use RTG but the Games Master System.

The default extentions in AMOS hits the hardware.

Quote:

I think that because there is a "user" and a "dev" package on aminet and that makes no sense if the source would be compiled in the binary.

Well if extension is compiled into a exe file, then you cant added the extension to AMOS.

Anyway “User” package contains just what you, normally need to install.

A “Dev” package normally contains a manual, tutorials and examples, header files and source, and so on, stuff that is of no interest to the user, a normal user will be just confused by all stuff they do not need or understand, its also a wasted space on your hard-drive if your not developer.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 12:49 PM.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

800 Mhz using highly-optimized libraries written in assembler is not slow. And you have most software written in 68k, there are only a handful new packages like Blender that are ported

So you have 4 cores CPU at 3.4 Ghz, and you emulating a 800Mhz 680x0 CPU.

And you have the option to run Blender at full speed 1:1 (under windows) or you can run it at 1:0.05 of native speed (under WinUAE), what do you do?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:30 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:28 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

The "Games Master System" is written in optimized assembler and certainly not possible to be ported. But we would need a common set of basic libraries that are the same (API and behavior) on all platforms so a developer does not need to test it everywhere and make lots of workarounds (like it is the case today f.e. on MUI). The other solution many choose is to support only one platform (but it would be better to have more software for all platforms).

But anyway, if you have one platform that makes it relative easy to create software (f.e. using optimized libraries) and another platform with theoretic more performance/features but much less support then there is a good chance to get the better software on the first platform.

@NutsAboutAmiga

You develop for Windows (or linux) that has full SMP support if you want that. Or has AmigaOS got SMP support recently I am not aware of?

And you seem not to understand. If a developer does it to earn money he needs users (potential buyers). If the target platform is fast enough to run the game or application it is ok. If it is 1:1 of theoretical speed or worse is not that important.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:34 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:32 AM.

@OlafS25

No you don't need a common API, Bender runs MacOSX, Windows, Linux, AmigaOS, maybe lots more operating systems, its because there is some thing called a c preprocessor .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_preprocessor

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2014 at 11:33 AM.

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