@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Ask not what AmigaOS can do for you, but what you can do for AmigaOS.

OK, three people have commented on this already, but more can be said. My response: without source code, not much.

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@Nameless

Quote:

Nameless wrote: @BigGun A problem there is price, unless you mean an ASIC instead of the FPGA. Although again the issue is price, as it takes decent money to make the ASIC to begin with.

The FPGA accelerator that BigGun is referring to would be firmware upgradable (via flash memory) and could provide an environment to get the kinks worked out of the softcores before even attempting an ASIC. In fact, the original purpose of an FPGA is to prototype new ASIC designs. (Assuming things ever get that far.)

Also, the FPGA unit is supplied on a modular board so that if a new FPGA comes out next year, you can swap out the FPGA and reflash the new one with the same softcores and suddenly, what was a 200 MHz 68000 last year is now a 500 MHz 68000 on the new daughterboard.

@edponpon

A good, low priced Amiga is nice and all, but the marketing departments also needs a lot of money. If we want AOS4 to have a revival (at least in theory!), then we need more than just a low-cost Amiga. I mean: who would they sell it to, some AOS fans waiting for a low price Amiga? We also want new users to keep the platform alive, so marketing department needs money as well.

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Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

@phoenixkonsole

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Because 68k is in the MIPS area and even the slowest ARM is in the Gflops area?

Did you knoiw that "ARM" is the german word for "poor"?

Some ARM chips have actually not that "rich" peformance ...

For example this in my opinion quite good benchmark.
http://www.apollo-core.com/sortbench/index.htm?page=benchmarks
I find it quite interesting what score the 68060 reaches clock by clock.
- What scores typical PowerPC reach.
- What score Intel Systems.,
- And what scores an ARM reaches.
Also for those planning the spend $100,000 on their next Computer, an IBM mainframe was alos tested....

I think that a higher clocked 68K CPU - like a turbe 68060 - can stand its ground also against many ARM chips..

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APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@pavlor

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Agreed. Cancelled 5121e based netbook for OS4 targeted similar customers - for 200-300 USD it would sell really well.

I was thinking that ideally one would create a system with:
* 128 MB memory
* SAGA chipset
* 200 Mips 68K
For a market price of $50

I find 300 USD way to expensive....

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APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@BigGun

Agree strongly as far as price goes. People here think $200-$300 is cheap, just because they get killed on the PPC systems. If people really want any sort of mass market type of presence, an amiga-ish system needs to be super cheap. I'd say even less than $50, but around $50ish may be close enough.

To get to $50 or less, we are talking about an ASIC though, right? How cheap could a FPGA be and still offer any sort of performance, or be usable at all? I haven't kept track of FPGA prices but assumed any sort of retro system using one would still be around $150-$200, and that would be a lowend type of model.

@BigGun
You wrote somewhere 200Mips.. even the raspberry Pi has over 900Mips and this is the slowest, currently sold, ARM computer i can think of. Still it plays back fullHD media because of the Hardwaredecoding. My post was about AROS (which is platform independent) and not just 68k.

I don't believe that a "higher clocked 68k" stands against a 69$ Odoid U3 with 4x 1.7GHZ Cortex A9 and 2GB DDR3 RAM. Even in 68k execution.

EDIT:
German:
Der Arm, Körperteil an dem die Hände baumeln.
Ja ich weiß das ARM auch arm bedeutet ; )

Aber wusstest Du das ARM eigentlich für Advanced RISC Machines steht : p

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Jul-2014 at 07:49 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Jul-2014 at 07:49 PM.

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@phoenixkonsole

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Odoid U3 with 4x 1.7GHZ Cortex A9 and 2GB DDR3 RAM. Even in 68k execution.

There is no 68k JIT for ARM CPUs. Cortex-A9 1.7 GHz will not even reach 68060 50 MHz performance. For comparison, Petunia in OS4 gives (in some cases) 1/5 of native performance, that is 68060 350 MHz on G4 1 GHz.

@pavlor
Correct but cyclone68k core isn't bad without JIT but of course still behind.
What is the best way to benchmark it?

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@phoenixkonsole

Quote:

Correct but cyclone68k core isn't bad without JIT but of course still behind.

My point was ARM is not yet good architecture for 68k emulation.

Quote:

What is the best way to benchmark it?

There are many simple application benchmarks. I use lame, ffmpeg, dnetc (OGR-NG), Doom and Quake. For lame and ffmpeg you need same file for direct comparison with other systems, dnetc has built in benchmark, benchmarking Doom and Quake is also simple (eg. -timedemo demo3 in Doom, with 320x200 screen and default settings).

@pavlor
I will give it a try.
Just out of curiosity:
I can emulate a wii at 100% Speed on the odroid.
Now if i make use of the ppc jit uae Inside it.... What then : )
Ppc jit -> 68k jit = arm wins ; )

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Jul-2014 at 09:05 PM.

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@phoenixkonsole

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Now if i make use of the ppc jit uae Inside it.... What then : )

UAE PPC 68k JIT is not yet mature enough. Speed increase is only 2-4 in comparison to interpretive emulation. Petunia plays another league. However, your idea is brilliant!

A 50 dollar amiga? If it were possible it would surely sell.

Still, I wait for the apollo accellerator board first and then let's see where we go from there.

The idea of a bunch of us co-creating a commercial quality amiga game and then porting it to android and ios etc, entered my mind a few times in recent days.
Money gained from such an endeavour could be put directly back into amiga developement, a new case/housing, or helping with the apollo accellerator or anything really.

Anyone suggested something like this before? If in time gunnar succeeds to create a standalone system then the same game or games could be played on that system.

I am 100% behind gunnars accellerator and proposed standalone amiga; fingers fucking crossed it works out...

@adrianbrowne

Quote:

The idea of a bunch of us co-creating a commercial quality amiga game and then porting it to android and ios etc, entered my mind a few times in recent days.

Although their Amiga focus is on Amiga OS4, that's what the AmigaBoing guys did. Porting their games to mobile platforms allowed them to quit their day jobs and work full time on their games.

It would be good to see other teams follow this business model.

@phoenixkonsole

@I can emulate a wii at 100% Speed on the odroid.

This cpu is about the same speed as sam440.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_(microprocessor)

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@NutsAboutAmiga
I know. But since Dolphin uses a jit ppc Interpreter the emulated wii can be faster as that or you can just enhance graphics with Filters

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@Nameless

Quote:

To get to $50 or less, we are talking about an ASIC though, right? How cheap could a FPGA be and still offer any sort of performance, or be usable at all? I haven't kept track of FPGA prices but assumed any sort of retro system using one would still be around $150-$200, and that would be a lowend type of model.

Yes FPGA cost a little money but you can not assume AMIGA hardware prices.
All the prices of AMIGA devices are totally over priced.
This is either because people produce in really low numbers - or because they want to become rich.

My $50 goal was for a
* good 28nm FPGA system with
* 128 MB DDR3 memory
* SDcard as Disk
* USB to connect mouse and Joystick
* Network
* HDTV connector

To make this idea, to revieve AMIGA, possible some team work would be needed.
People would need to overcome their greed and would be needed to work on this for the sake and not for the goal to become millioners.
For example we need the OS for free for very low cost.

Who owns the Kickstart and could release it?
Could they be convinced to help revieve AMIGA?

Last edited by BigGun on 23-Jul-2014 at 05:46 AM.

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APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@phoenixkonsole

Quote:

I don't believe that a "higher clocked 68k" stands against a 69$ Odoid U3 with 4x 1.7GHZ Cortex

It does now need to have a chance to be a great system.

One think is clear to me a good CISC is a lot _stronger_ than RISC.
And I say this as someone who earns his money with developing RISC chips is his main job.

You have to mind that a good RISC chip typically does 2 instructions per cycle.
A good CISC chip which also does 2 instructions per cycle - can do with 2 CISC instructions the work of 4-6 RISC instructions.

For exmaple, I can do something like this with Apollo in a single cycle:
ADD.L #$123456,(A7)+
SUB.L #$85431234,D5

Count how many cycles and ARM would need do the same work of the single Cycle 68K.

Or just look at this instruction
ADD.L #$123456,($ABFC,A7)
How many ARM instructions do you need to do the same work?

Clock by clock a good 68K can be MUCH stronger than ARM.

Also 68K emulation is really cotsly on ARM.
A good 68K chip is easily several times faster than a Gigaherz ARM in 68k emulation.

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APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@BigGun

I belive that ARM processors differ from each other significantly. RISC OS, applications and games must have to ported separately for each processor.

@BigGun

If you want to avoid problems or bureaucracy IMO better not to get original kickstart but rather use and help develop AROS 68k so that you can customize stuff your way and so far works good to boot the machine for games;

beside that i agree with you that a very low cost FPGA machine would attract more people to Amiga and probably create again some userbase :)

Last edited by saimon69 on 23-Jul-2014 at 06:23 AM.

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