@NutsAboutAmiga
Can be better if i put it onto the internal ssd.

here is AEROS 3.9 booting from USB-Stick:
Takes a bit longer but is a full debian and AROS distro. So a bit heavier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeXH_Z7JN-g

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 25-Feb-2015 at 07:28 PM.

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@phoenixkonsole

I need my SSD in my PC, for Starcraft II and MMORPG games.
No expert on CFE and I have not relay tried spend lot of time in UEFI, have not found any RAM test option to turn off, but I bet there is stuff like that is going on.

I think there might problem with my UEFI setup, because originally the computer was setup as raid, then some disks stopped working. And I head to reinstall the OS, I should have changed the setting in UEFI, but did not and formatted and installed the OS with the Raid settings, even when I don't have a raid setup any more, I just tried to switch to acpi but windows failed to load.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Feb-2015 at 11:12 PM.
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@NutsAboutAmiga

guys, are you arguing on boot times again? how many times are you rebooting your machine a day?

@wawa

Normally not so often, today hemm lots, just to get stop clock right :-p
(I write software that sometimes crash AmigaOS, so this does matter to me.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Feb-2015 at 08:30 PM.

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Thread title needs to be changed to "How to turn a tricycle into a fighter jet". Just as ridiculous as the original title......

@wawa

Its is nice put some number on things, danwood original clams was AmigaONE-XE boot in over 1 min, and that window 8.1 booted in 10 sec, I doubt that considering on my system I spend more time in UEFI, then he does booting windows to desktop, the full reboot cycle i linked to was around 16 second Windows 8.

If anything the numbers show that what type firmware you use, the type of hardware you have has more to do with boot speed, then some people think, and as some else pointed out if put Windows7 on Sam440 or AmigaONE-XE type hardware be slow as a snail.

Phoenixkonsole, AROS benchmarks kind of show how much bloat it is in windows.

Its however interesting that Windows 8 so match better in boot speed then Windows 7, Windows Vista was pretty horrible, and WindowsXP was a dog.

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@BigGun

Interesting approach. Reminds me of that joke:

Q. How many Microsoft engineers does it take to replace a light bulb?
A. None, they just define darkness as the new standard.

You're being subjective, and that's all well and good. But despite the delusions of @KingKong, most of us are trying to be objective in this thread.

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@bison

Quote:

The only area I can think of where a ten-fold improvement is possible is in the area of complexity: it wouldn't be that difficult reduce the complexity of a system like Windows to one-tenth without reducing the capabilities for the average user. Most large software applications contain a huge amount of code that provides functionality only used by a small percentage of users, but everyone has to deal with the extra complexity whether it benefits them or not.

I like the way you think.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

My only win8 system which is extensively used more than a year old surface pro boots on no time if i need it to reboot. You cannot impress anybody with half a minute boot time today..

@Pleng

Thanks for engaging. You raise many valid points, but more than the points themselves you have highlighted a couple of key areas:

1. No single OS today embodies all of these things. Though most of your examples have Windows in them, in reality Windows does not rule supreme as there are enough people who choose Mac OS X and Linux.

2. The challenge in making things easier than they already might be. And just because you can't think of how something could possibly be made easier or simpler and therefore better, does not mean it can't be.

The goal should be to not look at each of those improvements in isolation, rather consider them as part of an end-to-end experience. Yes, when you plug in some peripherals into Windows there is a universal driver that makes it work immediately or Windows is able to find it in an online repository and downloads it. But that does not apply to all Windows users, for all peripherals, all the time. Look at an average user fumble as they try to configure their Windows machine to work with the new wireless printer they just bought.

@thread
It's not that hard to find and collect the things that would make someone switch from their current OS; People are doing that every day. You've likely done it yourself, and it is very likely you know people that have switched from one OS they have been running for many years and go to another.

Ask yourself, and your friends and work colleagues, why did you switch from Windows to Linux, or from Linux to Mac OS X, or from Mac OS X to Windows?
Take most of those reasons and make sure the next Amiga OS has the answer, and people will go there.

If they leave Linux because they're just fed up with managing component updates and dependencies, or the challenges in getting good GPU drivers, or lack of consistency between apps, or a lack of support for modern peripherals, then your new OS should be a place that fixes that.

If they leave Windows because it is bloated and most of the software for it is bloated, and they are tired of constant security patches, and malware threats, and feeling like they constantly need to upgrade their hardware, then your new OS should be a place that fixes that.

If they leave Mac OS X because they would like to choose their own hardware, or are tired of the amount of control Apple places on the OS, then your new OS should be a place that fixes that.

Like me, some of you will have experienced or are still running multiple operating systems and you would be keenly aware that they all have areas where they can be better. I am not talking about making a perfect operating system; gamers and MS Office people will stick to Windows, hard core tinkerers will stick to Linux, creatives will stick with Mac OS X. But every day someone is switching from one OS to another.

Last edited by agami on 26-Feb-2015 at 05:35 AM.

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@Massi

Quote:

Try to run Window$ / OSX / Linux on a, say SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, then we see what happens ... :)

Even though you put a smiley face at the end I still can't let this one go.

What was the cost of your SAM440EP-FLEX based system, $1,000? Now put Windows / OS X / Linux on a $1,000 system and see what happens.

I can still accomplish many things and run lots of software on a Pentium III or G4 Mac running @ 733MHz. Mac OS X up to 10.4 with lots of software runs on a G4 Mac or PowerBook running at 733MHz. Many Linux distros and Windows XP with tons of software including 3D games will run on a Pentium III running @ 733MHz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNP5f9m5eHUCRYSIS Warehead running on Pentium 3 733MHz

Also, on all these systems USB 2.0, and Ethernet, and Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth all work at full speed.

Try to run AmigaOS 4.x on Core i5-4690K @3,500MHz then see what happens
Try to run AmigaOS 4.x on X1000 with PA6T-1682M @1,800MHz using both cores and see what happens

But I get it. AmigaOS 4.x is a lightweight multitasking OS that has been tuned for the Sam PPC hardware. And because it lacks a ton of functionality is small and efficient. Though I'm sure if you compile Linux, with its bitch-of-a-monolithic kernel, for the 440FLEX and optimise it, then it would run quite well. Also, all the drivers will work, and there is a ton of software for Linux.

Put iOS on an iPhone running @733MHz and see what happens. Oh that's right, a smartphone revolution happens.

Put Linux on a Raspberry Pi running @700MHz and see what happens. Oh that's right, a hobbyist computing revolution happens.

For all it's speed and lightweight-ness, AmigaOS 4.x running on a limited run PPC board @733MHz has accomplished practically nothing.

Last edited by agami on 26-Feb-2015 at 05:31 AM.
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@ferrels

Quote:

Thread title needs to be changed to "How to turn a tricycle into a fighter jet".

I can't believe you actually made that comparison.
The only thing those two things have in common is the number of wheels, and they are a type of conveyance.

A more apt comparison would be tricycle vs 4-wheel ATV. Both are ridden on, both use wheeled locomotion, both have handle bars, etc.

The Amiga OS is quite behind in features but it is still an OS that accomplishes many of the things that is expected from an OS. Also, Amiga OS was an OS around the time when some of the current OSs were around (Apple's System, and later NeXT's NeXTStep, and MS Windows all existed around the time Amiga OS 1.x - 3.x was active.

And since the contemporary Mac OS X and Windows are based on the legacy of the late '80s and early '90s, much like AmigaOS 4.x is, it's kind of hard to see how these OSs are as different from AmigaOS 4.x as a fighter jet is from a tricycle.

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@agami

Quote:

And since the contemporary Mac OS X and Windows are based on the legacy of the late '80s and early '90s, much like AmigaOS 4.x is, it's kind of hard to see how these OSs are as different from AmigaOS 4.x as a fighter jet is from a tricycle.

The difference that you're failing to recognize is that the rest of the world actually uses OSX and Windows, and both OSs have been constantly update/upgraded to support new standards (hardware & software) as they've been adopted. AmigaOS/OS4 is at least 20 years behind OSX and Windows and OS4 has no modern hardware that even comes close to x86 performance and no real software base. All your talk and dreaming isn't going to change that. OS4 is a tricycle.......a hobby OS. You're not going to convince businesses nor consumers to adopt a tricycle when they've been using and investing in current standards. And software developers/programmers write code for the systems that sell. So you're not going to convince anyone to develop software for OS4 either except hobby programmers. OS4 is a dead OS used by probably less than 1000 people on the entire planet.

You're also incorrect in stating that OSX and Windows are based on legacy code of the late '80s. OSX is based on Darwin and MacOS was orphaned when Apple couldn't figure out how to make it multi-task. MacOS did NOT evolve into OSX. And the codebase for Windows has changed dramatically since the 80s. Most of the 16-bit legacy code doesn't even exist in current versions of Windows 7+. Windows has changed so much since the 80s that most pre-XP software won't even run on current versions of Windows. OSX and Windows have evolved. OS4 is still effectively in the stone age where it will remain.

#190 It is easier, to provide a small/sleek operating system like AmigaOS with adtitional features, then to strip a bloated OS down to something perfect. I think that's how it is, because you need a good systemdesign/structure and you can't make a messed up systemdesign perfect by just cutting 75% away.

Perhaps Microsoft will add more and more functionality to UEFI in the future, because they can't improve Windows just like that. Microsoft is trapped, because it works still quite fine for them and a great overhaul would be to costly/messy, is regarded as unnecessary - well, perhaps.

It's important to (sensibly) strive for optimal code and remind KISS. This means, that AmigaOS should not be patched up with as much functionality in as little time as possible no matter what's the outcome - instead AmigaOS should be improved perfectly and this my cost some time. It is important to identify existing bad code and insufficient systemdesign first and think then of ways to replace or improve it.

Propably the first thing should be memory protection, multiprocessing (see Multicore and Amiga: Present and Future and New Hyperion info on SMP for AmigaOS) and state of the art virtual memory management.

AmigaOS could turn it's misfortune (backlog, delay) to an advantage. Now we know much more about computer science and operating systems and could therefor avoid some mistakes, Microsoft and Linux have made. This advantage should not be given careless away - although AmigaOS is way behind, it has to take it's (reasonable) time to find a (nearly) perfect solution.


#191 Nice UEFI explanation but regarding digital signatures one has to know that there is a difference between asymmetric cryptography and checksums.

It is not absolutely secure to rely on a private key (the UEFI has the public key and runs only correct signed software) and hope that all those bad guys will never get it (one could assume that them CIA/NSA have most private keys of important software/hardware makers of the Five Eyes and more, like perhaps Samsung).

A sufficient checksum algorithm and public checksums are a good way to provide security, because then no one could alter the software secretly, if the hardware is secure and that's the goal. A secure computer must have bottom up checksums (from chip microcode over firmware to OS and user programs) and obviously a secure way to scan the code, compare the checksums and display the results.

This is the great opportunity for Amiga hardware/software, because the bad guys won't let the current big guys make a real secure system that even CIA/NSA can't hack. There's obviously also a risk, because the bad guys will try to prevent a supersecure system and that it will become mainstream - so be aware (think of sabotage and saboteurs also). Just think of how much money these multi-billion-companies possibly would spend to stop this revolution and loss of power. Open source is a good way to minimize the risk and increase the probability for success. Open Source is the only way to avoid risky dependencies (think of all the trouble bearer of rights could make and think of all that multi-billion-companies paying millions for trouble).


Yeah, MS Windows works now quite well on faster and cheaper hardware than AmigaOne X1000 but think of how faster AmigaOS could be on similar hardware, even when AmigaOS has all the functionality of MS Windows and more.

AmigaOS has the chance to become a leading operating system - don't mess this up. Better take all the necessary time - what are a view years compared to billion years to come?

If Amiga won't make it, then perhaps another will but I think that Amiga has a chance - it can't be a mistake to go for an improvement of AmigaOS. I suggest that all disbelievers and those who can't understand/cope just go away - why should they show everybody their disbelief and that they just can't understand (at best - perhaps they want to prevent AmigaOS becoming a leading operating system)?

This is also an aspect of the great game of power, of the good forces fighting evil. Choose your side! Some already have and some won't realize that they are on the wrong side - it's funny to see some of those gabbling bullshit and trying to (increasingly unsuccessful) fool the world ... so go on, if it must be, entertain us.

Yeah, that's how it is - at least I think so (you know, just my opinion or simply: imho).

My daily use:

85' first computer (C=64)
90' hobby computer (Amiga) (still little use)
05' home laptop (Mac) (still daily use)
10' tablet (Mac) (still daily use)
15' ...

Now, does anybody can give me an advice what the next thing should be
that i should buy? An Amiga device? Hmm...

Last edited by Dirk-B on 26-Feb-2015 at 07:54 AM.

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@ferrels

You're absolutely right. All versions of AmigaOs are a dead end and a complete waste of time. Expanding AOS to comply to current standards is simply absurd, and not in any way, shape or form worth the effort (if it can even be done in a non-brain dead way, which I doubt).

And why bother? What's so fabulous about AOS anyway? It's an OS that's stuck in an earlier part of the modern computer era, unlike the hardware from the same period, which can do better than AOS.

As for the tricycle vs fighter jet comparison, it's perhaps more like a small sports plane vs a Boing 747. Sure, the sport plane flies well enough, but you'll never turn it into a mass transport air liner

Last edited by Thorham on 26-Feb-2015 at 08:17 AM.

@KingKong

Quote:

AmigaOS has the chance to become a leading operating system - don't mess this up. Better take all the necessary time - what are a view years compared to billion years to come? If Amiga won't make it, then perhaps another will but I think that Amiga has a chance - it can't be a mistake to go for an improvement of AmigaOS. I suggest that all disbelievers and those who can't understand/cope just go away - why should they show everybody their disbelief and that they just can't understand (at best - perhaps they want to prevent AmigaOS becoming a leading operating system)? This is also an aspect of the great game of power, of the good forces fighting evil. Choose your side! Some already have and some won't realize that they are on the wrong side - it's funny to see some of those gabbling bullshit and trying to (increasingly unsuccessful) fool the world ... so go on, if it must be, entertain us. Yeah, that's how it is - at least I think so (you know, just my opinion or simply: imho).

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

danwood original clams was AmigaONE-XE boot in over 1 min, and that window 8.1 booted in 10 sec, I doubt that considering on my system I spend more time in UEFI, then he does booting windows to desktop, the full reboot cycle i linked to was around 16 second Windows 8.

Of course these were rough estimates, I've just timed the Win 8 boot up out of interest, and yeah it is more than 10, clocks in at around 17.5 secs from power-on to desktop.

U-Boot aside, OS4.1 did used to boot in around 10 seconds or so after U-Boot, but I saw this time go up a lot after update 3 was applied. I remember others on the forum saying the same, I even raised it with SSolie who at the time said boot speed wasn't a priority. So I definitely didn't imagine it. I guess it was just newer/larger kickstart modules and some other changes.

This is the warm boot speed I was getting before update 3 was installed, which is on-par with MorphOS:

http://youtu.be/T7ofkdlGGF4

Last edited by danwood on 26-Feb-2015 at 09:23 AM.
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@ferrels

Right, what features is it that AmigaOS lacks, that won't be adressed by 4.2?

The codebase for amigaOS has also changed since 1.3 from the 80s

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@Thorham

Quote:

All versions of AmigaOs are a dead end and a complete waste of time

My 2 cents: post like yours above are a complete waster of time.


Quote:

Sure, the sport plane flies well enough, but you'll never turn it into a mass transport air liner

Do you go to Lotus sport car company and complain that their sport cars can not carry as much freight as a big Lorry?

Everyone complaining about AMIGA OS missing feature XYZ from Linux - should first go to Lotus or Porsche and complain that their cars can not load 10 tons of freight.
Doing this would be juts as clever as this ranting here.

Sport Cars are sport cars and lorries are lorries.
If you want a lorry then get one.

If you want memory protection and whatnot features then get Linux.

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