@olegil

If around $20, would it be possible to pair up a 400K FPGA with something like this $9 computer, or even a Pi 2 at $35? Just wondering why the MiniMig is so expensive then, relatively speaking? Or does it come down to low quantities vs mass production prices? Are pricey boards needed to pair up a FPGA w/this cheap ARM device or a Pi?

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote: @cdimauro Quote: The big-endian support provided by ARMs is enough for emulators/JITer like Petunia and Trance. No it obviously isn't. On legacy 68k Amiga everything is big endian. On OS4/MorphOS on PPC the legacy code, datablocks, pointers, registers, whatever exists and runs completely down-to-the-metal native (after being translated by Trance/Petunia). This is only possible thanks to PPC being TRUE big endian.

The only thing that you need for emulators/JITer to run at full speed is the ability to transparently read/write data with the same endianess of the guest architecture. Transparently means the host works "natively" with the same endianess, without any conversion. And ARM architecture can do it, so setting the big-endianess for memory accesses solves that problem and makes it to work exactly like a 68K or a PowerPC processor.

You don't need to have everything big-endian. What only counts for an emulator/JITer is the data. It doesn't make sense and therefore it's absolutely not required that opcodes should be stored in big-endian.
Quote:

But on little endian architectures (including "bi-endian" that still has little endian addressing modes) this will crash and burn, simply not possible, and an emulator (a program running that mimics a 68k CPU and thus takes care of all the S/W execution, like in UAE) will be necessary.

Emulators and JITers are conceptually very similar.
Quote:

If endianness hadn't been a problem then OS4/MorphOS would have been ported to ARM or x86 a long time ago already.

ARM has no problem; see above.

x86 in the past had only performance penalty, since you have to use the slow BSWAP (for longwords) and ROR/ROL (for words) to convert a data from big-endian to little-endian, and viceversa. However all Atoms and starting from Haswell a new instruction, MOVBE (MOV Big Endian) is provided, which is much faster and more flexible to for such kind of conversion.
Quote:

But the key objective of both these operating systems has been to provide a native environment and true binary compatibility. This can only happen on a TRUE big endian CPU like the PPC. This is the only environment where legacy Amiga stuff can exist and function, natively, not inside emulators.

ARM has no problem: you can create an entire o.s., applications, and an emulator/JITer which works "natively" as big-endian.

With x86 this isn't possible. But in principle you can write an o.s. which uses the big-endian format to store every data, and the compiler will take care of every conversion internally and transparently. It means that all data structure are saved in big-endian format. The Intel compiler already provides this feature, and makes it very easy now to handle big-endian data structures (for example the network packets) even on x86, without required manual conversion for the coders.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote: @Nameless Quote: Nameless wrote: And nobody would put Apollo into an ASIC until all the bugs were ironed out. I think there might be some boring stuff like Intellectual Property issues of the 680x0 as well...

I don't think so. All Pentium and 68060 patents should have been already expired, according to introduction dates of both processors.

@Nameless

Dude, I keep saying it. The cost structure of the minimig includes FPGA, CPU, RAM, PIC/ARM, PCB, connectors, assembly etc etc. Remove the FPGA and you essentially have the same thing as this $9 computer, just at a much higher price BECAUSE OF LOGISTICS.

Yes, buying 100000 units at a time from a chinese company using chinese parts will save you money. No, this doesn't work once you've put a $20 FPGA on the board.

To make money from a $9 computer it needs to have direct (parts, manufacturing) and indirect (support, rent, design labour, prototyping, all split over the number of units we're talking about) costs of less than $9 per board. Add a $20 FPGA to the BOM and I guarantee you've added more than 20$ to the end user price. Of course, if there's no EMC/ESD safety testing, no CE approval, no warranties given, this helps a lot. But that's not how electronics business works in Europe anymore.

I'm honestly not sure if you would be given your money back if it turns out this board was faulty within 1/2/5 years (depending on local consumer protection laws). Which is hard to avoid with 100% certainty. Not sure if an insurance company would cover this either. If you buy a minimig from Acube you get a warranty.

If you want a cheaper minimig in the 100000 quantity ballpark, ASIC is the way to go. And it should include the whole design plus LCD controller, not just the part that is inside an FPGA now. Next step, 68k + AGA + PCI/PCIe master + PCI/PCIe/local bus slave, to pair it with whatever CPU (ARM, PPC etc) we want later. Purrr

There are companies specializing in helping other companies migrating from FPGA to ASIC. But there needs to be some sort of incentive to begin with

TL;DR:
cheap minimig needs full integration ASIC (alternatively just run UAE on your $9 computer with the $20 DVI interface and the $20 shipping).

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@KimmoK

Wow. Forth directly on the FPGA. That's pretty cool. Unfortunately I don't really have a lot of Forth that needs executing

That second link there mentions a $8 XC2S15, I think it's pretty self evident why an FPGA cannot come anywhere close to a design if you want to save costs. 196 slices at $8 and a minimig requires about 10 times that just for the chipset, RAM/CPU/MCU is extra.

HOWEVER, an S6 is significantly cheaper and faster than an S3, so it should be about time to migrate to the newer technology.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

"Dude, I keep saying it. The cost structure of the minimig includes FPGA, CPU, RAM, PIC/ARM, PCB, connectors, assembly etc etc. Remove the FPGA and you essentially have the same thing as this $9 computer, just at a much higher price BECAUSE OF LOGISTICS."

Well, the point I was trying to make was something like the Raspberry Pi 2 covers the logistics and has been made already with a mass quantity discount. Approval, testing and all of that has been done already. No idea if that applies to this $9 PC too, but for argument's sake we'll say it hasn't.

Just wondering if someone could take a Pi 2, and I mean literally a Pi 2 (or similar ARM device), not a new ARM device built from scratch that needed testing + parts and all of that ... and simply add a FPGA for $20 or so. Could a Minimig-like device be built cheaper using off the shelf devices + parts, using ARM JIT instead of a real 68K chip?

I expect the answer would be no, or it'd be too complicated, or not worth the effort. I was mostly just curious as to FPGA pricing, as again, machines like the Pi should be a ton cheaper than a Minimig simply due to quantity discounts.

And ASIC is certainly the way to go if talking mass quantities, but that does requires a lot of money too. I don't see a lot of Amiga-related companies going this route, although I wish they would.

@Nameless

Again, not significantly cheaper than the minimig, no. Order 100000 minimigs from acube and I suspect you'll get a much better price already. That took care of the logistics part. The RAM/CPU/PIC/PCB of the minimig equates to more than $9, but not THAT much.

But you're missing the point, it doesn't matter a pair of dingos kidneys whether the pi is made in millions at a time when YOU DON'T WANT A PI, YOU WANT TO ADD AN FPGA TO IT. Or in essence, you want to replace the 68000 with an ARM on a minimig.

So:
CPU + S3 FPGA + RAM + MCU = very expensive
ARM + RAM = cheap, though it depends a lot on ARM type (possible to boot from SD)
PPC + RAM = not so bad either, again depending on type (I'm booting my P1025 from SD)
S6 FPGA + RAM + MCU = middle price, would cut a fair bit of cost, possibly about 35-40 EUR from end user price

Low quantities: adds a lot
Extremely high quantities: adds next to no cost per board

Warranty and EMC approvals: adds cost

I just don't get why you can't accept that adding an FPGA to a cheap board will make it a not cheap board, while removing a CPU from an FPGA board will make it a cheaper board.

Last edited by olegil on 20-May-2015 at 07:43 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Thing is, one wouldn't need to order 100K minimigs to get a better price. Millions of Pis already have that discount built in. One order for $35 gets you that better price.

And yes, we wouldn't want a Pi, we'd want a Pi + FPGA. But if the FPGA cost $20-$30, it's somewhat substantially cheaper than a minimig. Of course it's not that simple, and no idea if it could be made to work. Just thinking aloud as to cheap alternatives that an Amiga-ish company or someone here could potentially tinker with, without requiring a half a million USD or so required to create an ASIC.

Last edited by Nameless on 20-May-2015 at 07:39 AM.
Last edited by Nameless on 20-May-2015 at 07:38 AM.

@Nameless

Look, I KNOW how it works, as I design electronics with PPCs and FPGAs and shit FOR AN ACTUAL LIVING.

You can't just glue an FPGA to a PI you bought online and expect some sort of synergy. The FPGA needs power supplies (2-4 different rails), you need a good quality PCB etc etc. So no, you're not adding a 20$ FPGA to an existing PI, you're adding an FPGA and RAM (did you forget CHIP RAM?) and PSU and PCB and connectors and so on as a companion board, and if you had just added 5$ of cost (slightly bigger FPGA to fit a soft-core M68k without requiring the IO) to this companion board it would be a complete minimig without needing the PI.

Cost cutting is best done by cutting costs, not adding them.

Equation: Cost reduced minimig + PI = not so cost reduced minimig.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Well, that was basically what I was asking. Would the costs of adding a FPGA outweigh the bulk discount provided by using Pi in the first place. By the sounds of things, it's a no, it'd add too much in cost. I thought there were cheap FPGA adapter boards for the Pi out there though, but don't recall cost or if they ever came to light (may have just been wishful thinking by developers).

@Nameless

A cheap FPGA is not necessarily an FPGA capable of implementing ECS. Also, it needs RAM (for CHIP RAM), which might not be needed for other designs. RAM is never gratis.

My rough guide:
Cheap CPU can't emulate Amiga
Cheap FPGA can't emulate Amiga
Cheap FPGA can't emulate CPU
CPU can't emulate FPGA

Last edited by olegil on 20-May-2015 at 08:14 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Yeah, of course. I won't claim to know a whole lot about FPGAs, so that's why I asked first if it was even possible to do, then about pricing. I should have clarified that I meant the cost of adding a FPGA (so board, ram etc) and not the FPGA all by itself.

I think the Pixi board for the original Pi was got me wondering about it. I think it was only 200K gates though and not so sure if it would be suitable, but I think the whole thing was less than $50... and that was from 3 years ago. No idea if they ever got it off the ground though.

@thread

For simple math how much a small computer can cost:
-RasberryPi2 costs about EUR50 including everything (10 000 unit production run?)

To do the same with PowerPC (T1042) I get below EUR150 by getting same components + T1042.



I would do a nano-ITX or mini-ITX size board with some PCIe and put EUR199 price tag on it. (incl, motherboard, RAM, HDD, twoGPUs, Audio, PSU, some AmigaLikeOSs)

Would anyone buy it?

NOTE: "my computer" would have BETATESTER written all over it, but would it matter, it would be fair at least?

Last edited by KimmoK on 20-May-2015 at 08:29 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 20-May-2015 at 08:29 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Nameless

originally aimed for £35, no price updates given, but ok. Well, that is a board with the FPGA I suggest migrating to for cost cutting, but no RAM and no Amiga-like connectors. Certainly nice, though. If it had actually been put in production. And would have warranty. And preferably a CE sticker with some documentation backing it up

I have an extreme amount of doubt that you could even do high-speed things like an m68k address/data bus between Pi and PiXi, though.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

The only hope right now is Vampire project which should
include 060,RTG,Paula and probably some other things which
is nice part of Amiga already made in FPGA with 128 Mb ram.

Next logical step (after cards are made god willing) would be
standalone boards and there is no need for Amiga connectors
because some people already use USB on clockport and Indi-
vision for video and that would already be there + ethernet.

Cost of tower,PSU and keyboard would fall to end user which
wouldn't be so much of a problem as people have these things
already.

I don't think any company would be making those so cost of
fulfilling the standards is also 0.If any company made those
they would end their business there as that would be final
product for "classics".

FPGA boards may not be getting cheaper but they are getting
more powerful and mass produced so my guess would be
less than price of Minimig as offered by ACube.

But it is "homemade" project so time will tell.The reason I'm
not so sceptic about it is that end-goal is already made by
fastest Amiga hardware made so it should be reachable and
isn't likely to change.

@blizz1220

Ok, the Vampire pre-order was 90 EUR, about half the price of a minimig.

1: Now take that in a commercial release with warranty, EMC approvals and salary for your staff.

2: Sell it FAR below the price of minimig.

3: Go bankrupt.

4: ???

5: Profit!

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Well standards are for companies , individuals have less
strict standards to follow (you can sell me half working
computer as long as we agree on that).

Also take the time frame into account , it will still be some
time so I wouldn't expect prices of parts to go up in a year
or two ?

@olegil

The way I was looking at it, which I will say upfront may be completely idiotic... is instead of replicating a full Minimig and trying to use the Pi as simply the 68K replacement (via ARM JIT) was to use the Pi as the 68K/Ram/board/etc. and the FPGA more or less equivalent to a plug-in graphics card. But the graphics card in this case would be FPGA w/ ECS or AGA chipset.

Sort of like use the Pi to run UAE, but adapt UAE to use hardware emulation for the chipsets... idea being speed/greater accuracy.

I had also hoped FPGA prices had come down during the past several years, and boards like the pixi were actually produced. Only ones I see now somewhat in that price range would be something like the Papilio One 250K/500Ks... but no idea how well they work with Pis, or if any of what I was thinking could even be possible.

Last edited by Nameless on 20-May-2015 at 05:42 PM.
Last edited by Nameless on 20-May-2015 at 05:05 PM.

@KimmoK

The problem I see with a computer like that is... who is your market?

Forget retro people, or folks outside of this forum. For those interested in a NG Amiga, I would expect many have already purchased some sort of solution already ... be it MorphOS or some flavor of AmigaOne.

If someone wanted a cheap computer to run MorphOS on, I'd think they could just buy a cheapo used Mac for like $50 instead.

Otherwise, what advantage does your type of computer have and why would someone want it? I'm not asking this to knock it, I just haven't kept up to date with all NG flavors... so don't know what a machine like this could do that a cheaper alternative couldn't do already.

Last edited by Nameless on 20-May-2015 at 06:05 PM.

@Nameless

Quote:

Nameless wrote: @KimmoK The problem I see with a computer like that is... who is your market? ... so don't know what a machine like this could do that a cheaper alternative couldn't do already.

(While shaking head slowly)

Trust me, and many others here, you just don't get IT, and never will.
It's not your fault, it is ours. We do not have the expertise to explain IT so you would understand.
Enlightenment is pretty much a 'Do it yourself' project. Sorry.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.