@OlafS25

Was not the idea to use a white / black list, there is black list for Petunia already.

Quote:

The question is what do the users want?

Well power to play movies maybe, more power for games.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Jun-2016 at 05:27 PM.

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@Hypex

on ppc, interrupts are soft (single handler needs to check which sub handler to call) anyway, so i doubt emulation has much downside.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

and movies should benefit from any form of multiprocessing, so i think it makes a lot of sense.

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This weeks pet peeve:
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@OlafS25
Quote:

MP does not solve all problems of course but would be needed for security reasons

To protect passwords ? There's other means to do that.

Quote:

the question is what do the users want?

The users wants quite many different ways and have strong opinions.

@ne_one
Quote:

So what's the point of this exercise?

Marketing.

@agami
Quote:

Right now legacy compatibility is holding the OS hostage.

And some OS features which the community thinks are important.

@Hypex
Quote:

need to run an old version of DOS. But who does that anymore?

The industry uses it maybe still.

@olegil
Quote:

and movies should benefit from any form of multiprocessing

Video playing is one of the few which benefits from it.

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@agami

Quote:

Survival

If by that you mean it's (as Tomppeli suggests) mostly a marketing ploy to sell more licenses, then perhaps.

@agami

Quote:

P.S. Compatibility with legacy should have only been done through emulation. Right now legacy compatibility is holding the OS hostage.

Bingo... so why not devote limited resources to maintaining the existing OS/streamlining it for hosted emulation and move on?

I can't see people clambering to buy an upgrade with features that sound more appealing than the actual value that they provide.

Then again... that's pretty much the formula for success in any other market. Drat!

@Tomppeli
Quote:

@agami Quote: Right now legacy compatibility is holding the OS hostage. And some OS features which the community thinks are important.

not sure what your referring to, probably:
Quote:

But not breaking compatibility will hold back from implementing a more scalable solution that would work seamlessly on four or even more cores.

or this:

Quote:

I've used WinUAE quite a bit in addition to my (now sold) SAM460ex. In terms of using old software, using UAE has been a better experience for me than using Petunia in OS4.x. Why not break compatibility in OS4.2?

thing is, its too late. the only thing justifying usage of all these oses is legacy software. there is nothing worth mention that doesnt belong to this pool. apparently os4 has already a poor backward compatibility, aros x86 has even less, which explains it rather unattended status. under these circumstances its hard to expect, that even if few features, like smp or mp, could be added, that it would cause an instant flood of new productivity apps and games, be it ports or native ones. this train has departed long ago. today the legacy is even more obvious as a sole argument to use anything amiga related. thus breaking compatibility is digging further down the grave already wide open. sorry.

Last edited by wawa on 09-Jun-2016 at 01:23 AM.

@wawa

I agree in principle, but the thing is, whether Petunia gets improved to handle MP/SMP or UAE get more tightly integrated for a seamless experience, I believe there are ways to keep compatibility even with these new features added.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: thing is, its too late. the only thing justifying usage of all these oses is legacy software. there is nothing worth mention that doesnt belong to this pool. apparently os4 has already a poor backward compatibility, aros x86 has even less, which explains it rather unattended status. under these circumstances its hard to expect, that even if few features, like smp or mp, could be added, that it would cause an instant flood of new productivity apps and games, be it ports or native ones. this train has departed long ago. today the legacy is even more obvious as a sole argument to use anything amiga related. thus breaking compatibility is digging further down the grave already wide open. sorry.

In a sense, I agree. In the past sixteen years, there has not been much application development. We are anchored in legacy software. Even A-Eon's acquisitions are legacy applications that are being ported/updated for OS4.x (mind you, I would like to use an updated ImageFX or Aladdin4D).

In another sense, I disagree. Keeping the anchor in place has kept the ship from sailing on. Yes, having new features does not guarantee new software; yet, new features make new software possible. Let Cloanto worry about emulating 1.0 - 3.9 under AmigaOS 4.x. Let Individual Computers make Amiga Reloaded for a native hardware Amiga experience.

Although people keep talking about how small the Amiga market is, it is a market that sustains original hardware purists, original hardware hackers, NG hardware users, x86/AMD/RasberryPi hardware users, UAE (on Windows, Linux, et al.), OS 1.0 - 3.9 users, MorphOS, AROS (several flavors), and AmigaOS4.x. Although fractured, these markets are still alive. A-Eon has tapped into that diversity with Amistore.

I say let Hyperion, MorphOS, and AROS ditch trying to be compatible. Let them advance so that we don't have to use a Mac, PC, or one of those horrible flippy-finger interface smart phones at home. If they fail, so be it. It is not as if they are successful under their current model of keeping the anchor in place.

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Oh come on, the icing on the cake would be to have both backwards compatibility and SMP. Yes, it might be difficult or next to impossible but that's part of the fun. Even from a hobby perspective there no hobby worth it's fun if you're just aiming for average, just my opinion. Many people keep saying the NG AmigaOS variants don't make sense, to me that's part of the fun, to try to make the apparently impossible, even if the chances are small. I enjoy 68k too (have an A4000 and an A1200).

Last edited by Jose on 09-Jun-2016 at 12:44 PM.
Last edited by Jose on 09-Jun-2016 at 12:43 PM.

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José

@Jose

Not impossible.
But the best solution would be to box in the current OS and build a layer above it.
I see no indication that this course is even being considered.

@Aslak3

From my experience a few years ago of coming back to AmigaOS after more then 15 year absence, the biggest culture shock was by far the lack of memory protection. After using Linux and OS X systems for those intervening years, MP quickly becomes something that you just take for granted; it's a far far bigger differentiator then SMP and 64bit.

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@blakespot

the biggest shock as a developer is coming back and no decent IDE or class library. It would be even ok to me when the software runs on modern system (including first testing) and you only finally compile for Amiga and do final testing there. The lack of all the modern stuff everyone is comforted to is a much bigger problem now than lack of 64bit or SMP. MP to implement without breaking all old stuff is difficult to do, perhaps some sort of chance to save your work before the system collapses would be sufficient. And I agree to Wawa (and have written that too a couple of times) the modernizations should have happen from day 1 in a time with much more users and expecially developers, now every software that no longer work will hurt because there will be noone replacing it.

@OlafS25

I ask Dr Peter Keitel back then on an Amiga show why don't you implement MP and the answer was something like hell no, not having MP force the developer to write stable software.
Kamelito

Full memory protection was promised for OS4.0 release on this very forum by mr Hermans.
Multicore was a subject of a bet made by Ben Hermans that it would be available several years ago.

Draw your own conclusion but I'm pretty certain neither MP or multicore will ever be a part of AmigaOS as long as Hyperion is running things.

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@kamelit0

I don't get that at all, but then I don't have a doctorate.
It still sounds like a really stupid argument.
"We won't allow you to use the full potential of your hardware in order to encourage developers to create software that is more stable"

Huh?

@ne_one

Quote:

Bingo... so why not devote limited resources to maintaining the existing OS/streamlining it for hosted emulation and move on?

Are you sure this is really what current user base wants? Remember loud cries even against subtle changes like removal of WBStartup drawer? OS4 users are old and conservative (with few exceptions). That "feeling" thing is most important for them. Can you provide the same with your solution? If not, then forget about it.

Quote:

kamelit0 wrote: I ask Dr Peter Keitel back then on an Amiga show why don't you implement MP and the answer was something like hell no, not having MP force the developer to write stable software.

Wow, what an incredibly dumb answer

@Thorham

In a sense he's right but for this to work the OS and every program written for it should be rock solid which is not the case unfortunately.
Kamelito

@Jose

Quote:

Jose wrote: Oh come on, the icing on the cake would be to have both backwards compatibility and SMP.

Actually that is quite easy, only would be slower than running single core.

Fast and compatible ? Also possible ! Stability would suck
Fast and stable ? Sure, just throw away 99.99% of all apps written for AOS1-4.1.

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