@Niolator

Quote:

Niolator wrote: This whole debate worries me, or not the debate, just the absence of comment from Hyperion.

Maybe the one thing you should worry about, is the absence of OS development from Hyperion?

@saimo

Quote:

Bringing this up is irrevelant because:

well. for your convenience you might always find some clause to dismiss an argument. im not trying to question your previous attitude. it was just an example that comes to my mind, historical, previous or current, but by no means isolated, just proving a pattern. now, try to look at it from the ouside;)

Quote:

* Hyperion is not involved in no way at all (not just "not officially");

and how do you know internal agreements better than me? care to elaborate? at least the quote"its not a browser, its technology" was curious because it was suggesting migratíng the (lacking) os4 usership demands featurewise to web based services. too bad they have not realized, thay cant keep the pace with the web application progress, let alone with porting the browser.

but then i can recall a number of other issues i and others have commented upon and been proven right, whhich i dont need to remind of i guess, or do i?

Quote:

* Hyperion changed their commication policy way before (if my memory serves me).

right. they must have done it long before in anticipation of the audiences repeated reaction to what they did. as i said it was only one example..

@pavlor

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At least they tried and delivered

people who are still using it may comment, but seems that they have delivered a proof of concept, barely enough to justify claiming the bounty, which they subsequently did.

i wouldnt be very pleased with this approach, if i had contributed, as some number of others, judging by their comments. especially, that the sources have been kept away from public for some further years, in no accordance to the license they were based upon, and only lately apparently released to some closed group, that doesnt appear to be able to do enything with them.

@thread

The Amiga community is split into two groups. One group is the people who do things. They're the hardware and software developers. They work on Amiga OS, major software such as Open Office (or whatever it is called now). Then there are the rest of us, who rely on the developers for hardware and software. We are customers because we consume what the developers produce. In a lot of cases we have purchased products costing a significant amount of money from them.

Amiga developers have chosen to not provide their customers with information.

Personally I think the developers have an on-going responsibility to provide information to former and potential customers. Information is a big part of the product. Developers especially have a responsibility when customers spend over a thousand dollars for their product. The responsibility doesn't only extend to the hardware itself, but to software required to use it. Anyone providing a product creates a relationship with their customers whether they want to or not. Customers aren't always happy with the product. It's part of the provider/customer relationship.

The responsibility of developers doesn't stop when their customers are unhappy.

I would like to hear any kind of news. I would like to hear hopes and dreams. I would like to hear things that turn out of be wrong. I would like to hear about disappointments and setbacks. The Amiga community wants to be included in the process. They have always been part of the process.

I think a lot of Amiga developers are too proud to let people know that they have failures just like other human beings. Maybe they feel like they've failed if they don't make progress, so they don't want anyone to know.

Last edited by thinkchip on 12-Aug-2016 at 01:26 AM.
Last edited by thinkchip on 11-Aug-2016 at 11:23 PM.

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@saimo & wawa: I was just kidding. Don't take me seriously. I am also about to give up on the whole AmigaNG business. One thing that could make me stay is some communication from Hyperion, even if it is just a minor status update. This silence is not signalling respect for the community.

@thinkchip

Quote:

The Amiga community is split into two groups.

no. not anymore. you might conscoiusly join in and at least try to help as long as you are being let in. in fact you are a tester already, because the alpha state software and hardware is being releaed to you. the question is if your reports are being taken seriously or even if there is anyone to read and consider them, and if they are not good enough, if youll be instructed how to report back better.

as long as this isnt being realised by the audience, let alone the "companies", nothing can be done about the current situation. but i guess the attitude is, that nothing should be done, because as long as some people feel oblidged to be buying stuff, its satisfactory.

@Niolator

Quote:

This silence is not signalling respect for the community.

in fact they werent any more respectful not being silent. i dont feel so much desire for respect. on aros i dont feel to be respected better, there is quarrelling, egos, and individual motivations alright, but at least you do know what you are at, to certain extent, and none can simply run away with the sources and lock the shack before your nose.

@thinkchip

Quote:

thinkchip wrote: Amiga developers have chosen to not provide their customers with information.

A good question would be to ask is why they have chosen this...

Quote:

I would like to hear any kind of news. I would like to hear hopes and dreams. I would like to hear things that turn out of be wrong. I would like to hear about disappointments and setbacks. The Amiga community wants to be included in the process. They have always been part of the process.

If the community wants more of that, then it needs to be more tolerant of failure. Currently you get bashed if you make announcements too early ("announcement of an announcement") yet also criticised if you're quiet until just before release. Failing to deliver on schedule results in getting bashed again, and possibly being accused of dishonesty. Cancelling a failed project gets you bashed again. Technical decisions and priorities get criticised, unreasonable demands are made, etc.

You need to be incredibly thick skinned to put up with all of this. I can totally understand developers going quiet in response, especially if they're someone who tends to take things personally. You need to be at the receiving end to truly understand what it's like.

The point I hope you get from this is that the provider/customer relationship is a two way street. Abusive customers also have a negative impact on that relationship, and this community has had a fair bit of that.

Yes, it would be nice to hear more from Hyperion. When they do speak up, I suggest that everyone cut them some slack and make an effort to be civil.

Hans

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Updates to the beta server are regular. Perhaps a twitter feed relaying just the component name and version number of beta updates as they are uploaded to the server would reassure a lot of customers that development is ongoing.

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @saimo Quote: Bringing this up is irrevelant because: well. for your convenience you might always find some clause to dismiss an argument. im not trying to question your previous attitude. it was just an example that comes to my mind, historical, previous or current, but by no means isolated, just proving a pattern. now, try to look at it from the ouside;) Quote: * Hyperion is not involved in no way at all (not just "not officially"); and how do you know internal agreements better than me? care to elaborate? at least the quote"its not a browser, its technology" was curious because it was suggesting migratíng the (lacking) os4 usership demands featurewise to web based services. too bad they have not realized, thay cant keep the pace with the web application progress, let alone with porting the browser. but then i can recall a number of other issues i and others have commented upon and been proven right, whhich i dont need to remind of i guess, or do i? Quote: * Hyperion changed their commication policy way before (if my memory serves me). right. they must have done it long before in anticipation of the audiences repeated reaction to what they did. as i said it was only one example..

I did some homework because I couldn't trust my memory:
* in this post, dated Oct. 2009, Thomas Frieden expresses his intention to stop posting on AW.net, in reaction to the flamefest relative to Timberwolf;
* in this post, dated Nov. 2009, hyperionmp states their communication policy (confirming what I reported in my initial post, i.e. "Moreover, the difficulty of meeting the deadlines and the ensuing attacks eventually made Hyperion go for this publically-revealed policy: when we have something ready, we'll say it").
So, regarding Timberwolf, I stand corrected: those posts alone (even if there might be better ones) prove that Timerworlf was the last straw for TF (HJF didn't use to post much anyway) and, given the connection between the twins and Hyperion, maybe also a factor for Hyperion's decision.

However, problems didn't begin with Timberwolf: the fighting has been a constant ever since (the community has always been very litigious) and, as also hyperionmp's post admits, Hyperion had gotten burned by not delivering (on time) what promised/anticipated before.
The Timberwolf example doesn't disprove what I reported, but actually confirms it: Hyperion and the developers learned from their mistakes and the effects they had, and changed policy. Had the community been interacting in a civilized and constructive manner, that decision would not have been taken. The community (well, part of) did play a role by attacking brutally and fueling the flamefests. That's simply what happened, and denying that equals to rewriting history.


@Hans

100% agreed.

Last edited by saimo on 12-Aug-2016 at 03:35 AM.

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@saimo

Just wondering if a "flamefest" can occur only if both sides participate. What would happen if one side listened politely, professionally, and without comment? And then said "Thank you for your input. Have a nice day." I'm referring to postings.

Last edited by thinkchip on 12-Aug-2016 at 04:10 AM.

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@thinkchip

Quote:

thinkchip wrote: @saimo Just wondering if a "flamefest" can occur only if both sides participate. What would happen if one side listened politely, professionally, and without comment? And then said "Thank you for your input. Have a nice day." I'm referring to postings.

While, of course, the professional behaviour you suggest is the correct one, the answer to your question is: no. Even without Hyperion or their developers interacting publically, these and other forums are full of flames and bashing. No matter how polite one tries to be, who aims to cause damage will cause damage regardless.
But please see Hans' post, it really says it all

Last edited by saimo on 12-Aug-2016 at 04:57 AM.

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Lol, this thread has been the long way around to nowhere...

put Facepalm here!

@saimo

im agree with hyperion guys too, after see how much flames was made only when thomas on blog explain his way to jump the 2gb ram barrier.
and ...
i know and can say for sure the guys on hyperion crew are working every day for gave us the best amigaos experience.

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Sorry for beating the Vampire drum again, but AOS4.x developers could really learn from them.

Andy Broad is quite active on forum, and responds informative. I cant really remember him ending up in a flamefest in his discussions. He got a quite direct tone at times, and shows very little patience with bullshit, which is how I like it
Same goes for Trevor and Matthew. They convey information in such a manner that most people accept it.
Same goes for Team Apollo. Ive actually seen a few semi-unhappy people on IRC, mostly because of the extreme long queue for a Vampire. The developers has been so open with information about their development process and plans, that even normal users that hang out on IRC (like me!) can answer most questions, or point to threads on EAB explaining the details.
This way most situations, that could build into discontent, are defused with ACTUAL facts and explainations.
And since the communication is so dynamic with the developers, they can without any issue/pushback call out dreamers "dudes and dudettes; you are being unrealistic with your expectations!", and quickly flesh out why. This message gets picked up by x people in IRC, the next time I have a lapse and start dreaming, Mech can hit me over the head with realism.

So why cant Hyperion at the very least emulate some of that? Blaming it on flamefests doesnt really fly. IF Vampire/Apollo-team hadnt been so hands on, I feel quite confident they would have been picked on in a negative way too.
So there is a balance between too much information (taking up valuable coding hours), and too little information (letting potential users/customers grow discontent in their ignorance of whats going on).

Does this sound so unrealistic?

If Hyperion doesnt feel inclined to be pro-active, well, thats fine. Noone is forcing them to, but then you have the pushback from xyz. Personally I treat Amiga as a hobby, and refuses to get worked up over it. I love Dan Wood/Kookytechs approach to everything Amiga, enjoy what you have, instead of going all nutty over what could be.

Thats obviously not the case for everyone.

@TRIPOS

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TRIPOS wrote: @Raffaele One thread isn't enough for you?

h

Actually it was the post by tlosm that made me recall to give a slap to Amiga and MorphOS developers of OWB in order to made them wake up and cinfirm I can free the money for Tobias.

He is not eternal and couldn't wait for aeons...

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@Overflow

Quote:

Andy Broad is quite active on forum, and responds informative. I cant really remember him ending up in a flamefest in his discussions. He got a quite direct tone at times, and shows very little patience with bullshit, which is how I like it

No one has atacked me with th ferocity that some OS devs have received.

I do wish Hyperion would post a little more pogress info, there has been quite bit of late behind the scenes, even if a lot involves some intensive bug hunting and fixing. (Which provides fuel for the element determined to see hyperion fail).

I can see an understand why they don't though.

I do think there is non need for anyone official to post in this off topic thread about fake rumours from a known unreliably source! Official denail would almost give it substance!

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To add some gasoline to this potential flame war, I do think the Friedens handled the Timberwolf port kinda dickish.

First is the most obvious, they got paid in full for releasing a unfinished product and they didn't pay anything back after they realised they couldn't (or didn't want to) finish it. They could have saved face by paying some of it back to go to someone else who would finish the port. Or put the money into some other bounty. Or pay the part back to the donors.

Second, they close sourced and open source project. That is dickish.

Third, they did it for the sole purpose of denying the MorphOS camp a modern browser. That is dickish (but it did inspire Fab to make OWB, which turned out to be a good thing for all camps).

Fourth, when the source code finally was open sourced (several years to late to matter) the Friedens had added a lot of legal mumbo jumbo into the code to make sure their changes couldn't be used except on AmigaOS 4.x. Dickish.

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@broadblues

Thanks for the response.

As for bughunting/squashing; it seems to be of no consequence with regard of informing people of it.
But the complete scilence of Hyperion makes people belive they are doing nothing, even tho it seems that nothing can be futher from the truth.
Making a list of things that are on the to do list, and check it off publicly gives AOS4.x users atleast the confidence that progress is being made, and work is ongoing.
I know Blizzard for example sticks to the "Its done when its done!", and thats that. Its a valid method, but in a small community with little distractions, its probably not the best.

Imho.

Last edited by Overflow on 12-Aug-2016 at 12:24 PM.

@Hans

Quote:

If the community wants more of that, then it needs to be more tolerant of failure. Currently you get bashed if you make announcements too early ("announcement of an announcement") yet also criticised if you're quiet until just before release. Failing to deliver on schedule results in getting bashed again, and possibly being accused of dishonesty. Cancelling a failed project gets you bashed again. Technical decisions and priorities get criticised, unreasonable demands are made, etc.

you say it yourself..

the right way around it would be to honestly inform the audience abot the state of developments. instead usually totally overblown announcements are made to be followed by complete silence till the audience becomes extremly uncomfortable and then usually another announcement is made.

os4.2, gallium and smp by hyperion are prime examples, but even the announcements od aeon like these in case of warp3d nova or prisma megamix belong to that kind of cathegory, where the actual state of the project is communicated misleadingly, which leads to controverses and further loss of credibility.

you may think about, why this all apparently doesnt happen on morphos, even though they are not particularly open to the public, on aros or with the vampire team, as overflow already mentioned.