@BigD

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Pearl Harbour 'pushed' America into WW2 and stopped the UK ultimately becoming a satellite state of Germany or the USSR. God answers prayers but you don't get to choose how.

Lets hope that isn't an insinuation that God caused Pearl Harbor, because I'm pretty sure the Japanese thought of it as a "War to Liberate the Pacific" and they weren't too happy about us cutting of sales off petroleum to them.

I don't believe God starts or ends wars.

Edit - Hey, I'm taking off for the night, the snipe about the King, AND our relationship to Britain, as well as my diversions into history are showing I could be thinking more clearly. I'm sacking out.

Pax vobiscum, BigD.

Last edited by iggy on 02-Jul-2017 at 01:37 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 02-Jul-2017 at 01:24 AM.

@iggy

Quote:

Lets hope that isn't an insinuation that God caused Pearl Harbor,

Ultimately since he is a sovereign God he did allow it to happen. Wars are started by men with impure motives but you're right without America's help Britain would have been in trouble. UK citizens were praying in a desperate time and there was even a National Day of Prayer. There was a national turning to God and he answered. Both via the Lufftwaffe changing strategy to bombing cities rather than airfields during the Battle of Britian (that wasn't a great eventaulity for civilians but it gave the RAF breathing space) and Pearl Harbour which again was a horrific surprise attack with needless loss of life but guaranteed that Britain had an ally on the Western Front which helped free Western Europe and relieved the pressure on the Red Army to allow them to rally. It was also a God-incidence that the U.S. Aircraft Carriers were all at sea during attack preserving the fleet's vital air power for the campaign ahead.

HE USES EVEN THE BAD THINGS AND WORKS THEM FOR GOOD!

Last edited by BigD on 02-Jul-2017 at 02:16 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 02-Jul-2017 at 02:14 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

HE USES EVEN THE BAD THINGS AND WORKS THEM FOR GOOD!

That is an argument I have had before and I cannot counter it, although I'm sure it will inspire someone to start listing bad things that have happened and prompt them to ask for an explanation.

I can't even think of an interesting direction to take this, so like I said before, I'm off to bed.

Take care of yourself BigD.

@iggy

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In fact, until Israel (a theocracy based on one religion) was founded

Never heard about 1929 Palestine riots?

Note Israel is only country in the region with working democratic institutions and rule of law.

@pavlor

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...rule of law

Hmm...same 'rule of law' that allowed the Turks to sell property that was already inhabited?

Or, if we want to drag out uprisings, the same 'rule' that justified the Roman occupation of the region at AD1 (which got really messy about 90 years later).

At least the 'rule of law' in the United States respects significant minorities.

But then, we don't have a State religion, or expect everyone to have a common history or belief system.

If you're talking about a system that justifies someone in power forcing regulations upon someone else, I don't have much respect for it.
And its not justified when a democratic 'majority' do it either, as is currently illustrated here by our fiasco with the Republican party.

In the meanwhile, the Israeli's use massive retaliation and guns against children armed with rocks....
does not look as civilized as your post would make it seem.

@iggy

Compare Israel to any other Middle Eastern country... and then judge.

@pavlor

Sounds like a concept of minimum standards rather than a test of how civilized you are.
As long as we only argue a position rather than discuss reconciliation, the situation will not change and the region will remain in conflict.

@iggy

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Sounds like a concept of minimum standards

Sounds like a concept of double standards...

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As long as we only argue a position rather than discuss reconciliation

Sorry, I don´t see any solution that would satisfy all sides (that being said, I don´t see viable solution satisfying even for one side).

@pavlor

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I don´t see viable solution satisfying even for one side

I only see a 'final solution' satisfying either side, and we all know where that phrase comes from.
Which brings us back to BigD's argument for there only being one correct side.

As long as we are still at that point, mankind is doomed.

@BigD
You keep blathering on about "Roman Catholic heresy" as though the Catholic variant of the Christian religion somehow schismed from your version of the Christian religion. If it weren't for the Catholics and a long line of popes going right back to the time that Sylvester was Bishop of Rome in AD325 when Bishop Eusebius persuaded the Roman Emperor to declare Christianity to be the official state religion of the Roman empire. Whatever Protestant denomination, persuasion, movement, community, schism, sect, order or cult you use to bolter your own ego grew out of the original Catholic Christianity.

What evidence do you have to set your imaginary friend up as any different than Anoia, Benzeiten, Cronus, Dionysus, Eros, Freya, Geb, Hera, Isis, Jupiter, Kephri Loki, Marduk, Nemesis, Osiris, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Saturn, Tengri, Uller, Vesta, Wadjet, Xanthe, Yakshini, or Zeus.
Those twenty-six deities, chosen purely for the alphabetical sequence of their names are no more, or less invented characters than "Jesus of Nazareth"

Here is another fact about the teachings of Jesus that you choose to overlook.
The bible makes the following prophetic claims.
Matthew 16:28 (KJV)
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mark 9:1 (KJV)
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Luke 9:27 (KJV)
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
So how many 2000-year-old Jews do you know of? What are their names and where do they live?

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

Well, nothing new regarding ramsomware since some replys...

@iggy
You make the same basic mistake over what an Atheist is that many people make in an attempt to disparage Atheism as part of a lunatic fringe. The word Atheist is the word "Theist" with the Greek prefix "A" meaning "NOT" so a Theist is somebody who believes in a deity and an Atheist is somebody who does not believe in a deity. Likewise the word Agnostic is the word "Gnostic" with the Greek prefix "A" meaning "NOT" Far from Agnostic being halfway along a single axis with opposite ends being Theist and Atheist, the correct representation is two axes perpendicular to each other with Atheist at the opposie end of one axis to Theist, and Gnostic (meaning "knowing") opposite to Agnostic. Hence you can have Gnostic Theists who "Know" that their chosen deity exists and is either superior to all of the other gods, or is the only real deity as well as Agnostic Theists who are not sure whether gods exist, but go to churches anyway based on a variant of Pascal's wager. Then there are Agnostic Atheists and Gnostic Atheists.
My own position is that since there has never been any convincing material evidence to corroborate the claims made on behalf of any deity, and since the claims made on behalf of all deities have too many internal inconsistencies the only logical conclusion is that all religions to date have been false.

As for the claim that we do not know enough yet to dismiss all religions, I have also not surveyed every last square inch of the bottom of the Oceans of the world, but I know that there is not a colony of hamsters living in plastic tubes on the sea bed.

Last edited by Nimrod on 02-Jul-2017 at 10:47 PM.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@Nimrod

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...colony of hamsters....

Interesting comparison, but childish.
After all, I don't think God might be an underseas colony of hamsters OR Ronald McDonald for that matter.
Or you, or any other man.

Just a sentience I'm not evolved enough to communicate with or perceive.
And considering our rather primitive, animal origins, and how many misconceptions we've had in the past, I'm not willing to bet that we represent the height of sentience yet.

Naked, barely evolved apes, that still have a problem with killing their own kind have the perception to fathom all the mysteries of our Universe? Hardly.
And I'm not really interested in Pascal's wager.

In fact, the idea of spending an eternity with BigD's ilk is SO appalling I'm hoping against the idea.

And I still believe in the positive reinforcement of our best natures that can occur with the thoughtful interpretation of this material.

If you can't, no problem, I believe in the personal freedom to think and feel as you would.
I'm not going to suggest you MUST share MY point of view.

Last edited by iggy on 02-Jul-2017 at 11:13 PM.

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @Paula It's a good thing Jesus made sure that his teachings were to be written down for us to KNOW DEFINITIVELY WHAT THEY WERE? In conjunction with the other 62 books of the Bible the four gospels cataloguing the life of Jesus Christ provide the complete revelation of God's word to help to know his character, our fallen state, his expectations of us, his promises to redeem us despite our fallen state, his righteous judgement that is inescapable and his enacted rescue plan for those that personally trust in him. ...

Please, not again - why do I as the Infidel in this, have to provide the dude the facts about his own religion?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament
Quote:

New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era

Jesus was long dead, when they put his words in writting, even the church admits that!

And while the Protestant Old Testament has 39 Books, the Catholic version has 46.
How the heck you add that up with 27 and arrive at 62 is beyond me - you must have calculated that one on an Atari, I guess!

Your endemic confusion about the basic facts of your own religion only proves my original point - that its pointless to argue with someone about his religious creed, who can't even get the basics right.
That is also the main reason, why neither Christians nor Muslims or even Jews can agree on which of their version of that supposedly "eternal truth" is actually true - and keep making everybody's life miserable whilst arguing about it.

I myself am an Epikurean, wich means I simply don't care if your God or their God(s) or any gods exist - for I know it makes no damn difference, at least not in this life and anybody who claims (s)he knows what awaits in the hereafter is either divine or a fool or both.
You make a claim about the divine to me, then *you* provide the proof for it - that's the scientific method.
And no, the confused heresay of uneducated goat herders doesn't count as "proof", specially if it was written down almost twothousandfivehundred years ago and translated beyond recognition by other uneducated savages over and over and over again ever since.

Last edited by Paula on 03-Jul-2017 at 12:51 PM.
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@Paula

Epicureanism I have heard of, I don't think I've ever run into that word, Epikurean.
Is it similar?

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree with the statement "anybody who claims (s)he knows what awaits in the hereafter is either divine or a fool or both".

And this is important "Jesus was long dead, when they put his words in writting, even the church admits that!".
As mythology is always adapted to serve a purpose.

So if I hand pick jems like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", or "He who is without sin cast the first stone", while ignoring the death cult aspects of the documents, can you blame me?

Although...I don't completely agree with you that its all the philosophy of "primitive goat herders", Paula (or as I occasionally think of predecessors "primitive screw heads" ).
There's some very good stuff in the New Testament, WHEN its focused on the here and now and our relationships with our fellow man/woman.

Last edited by iggy on 03-Jul-2017 at 02:41 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 03-Jul-2017 at 02:37 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 03-Jul-2017 at 02:32 PM.

@iggy

Quote:

Of all of us here, only BigD claims to have proof of God's existence.

Maybe he has a Babel Fish.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@Signal

Ah, a fellow Douglas Adams fan!
You know, we have nothing to fear until the dolphins disappear w/

"Goodbye and thanks for the fish"

@BigD

Perhaps you take The Bible too literally. Seriously yes. Literally.... maybe not so much.

If you believe in a living God then you maybe should not limit His creation to what is in some very old writings.

For example. Sun, Moon and stars were created back in the beginning. Now, when galaxies were made can you just imagine The Great Spirit saying "Hey, you guys just gotta see these things." and then thinking 'OOPS!... No problem, Let there be Edwin Hubble.'

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@Signal

Thanks for that insight. I have a similar view on evolution as you do on astronomy, creation, not just limited to seven days or one place, but continuous and universal.

Wow!

I'm not going to read through all the previous pages of this thread to find out where it transformed from a discussion about "Ransomeware", into the current discussion about God, and the Bible, and other religions, and Israel.

I thought there were rules on this site about religious discussions, but I guess I was mistaken. IMHO, discussions about religions and religious beliefs are pointless and will never have any resolutions or agreements, so they serve no purpose, other than useless expression of personal beliefs, the sharing of which also serves no purpose, except to see one's beliefs in written form.

Oh well, carry on your exercise in futility if you must.