@kolla

Quote:

This is clearly the problem with AmigaOS too.

For what it's worth, I have trouble with Windows.

As an aside, I wonder why macOS is often sited as an exemplar of ease-of-use when its Unix user-land is no easier or more difficult than Linux's GNU user-land. There may be specific cases where one is easier than the other, but overall they're about the same. Both of them have desktop environments that are for the most part easy to use. The filesystem layouts are a bit different, but not that much. And yet one is considered easy to use, and the other difficult, by a large number of people.

Last edited by bison on 09-Apr-2018 at 07:13 PM.

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@outrun1978

I used Linux daily for 20 years now, I can't agree that it's hard to use. In fact, I tend to use it a lot like I used the Amiga, with a couple of terminals always to hand.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

To take off in general, the current world of IT is much more sensitive to security than it had been in Amiga's heyday. Hackers are spying on people through their IT cameras, holding data files in computers and smartphones for ransom, stealing information, etc.

AmigaOS by definition has absolutely no such security. A lot of effort, and accepting some degree of incompatibility, would be required to begin making it more safe for non-fans to become intrested.

The other main obstacle is available software. A lot of what I use and wish I could use is already available on other OSes. Even open-source stuff that can be, or has been ported, is already on other OSes.

I'm an Amiga fan with an unreasonable obsession. Reasonable people would not often remain intrested for very long.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@outrun1978

Want to be Master of your Linux computer?

For Debian based systems (Ubuntu) try this.

In a terminal;

sudo visudo
password
cursor down to a line like '%sudo ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL'
just below that line add a line '%YourUserName ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL

press ctrl+o
hit Enter
press ctrl+x

Reboot
You now have Great Power. Be careful.

Ignore any warnings posted here from anybody.

Install gnome-commander. Very dopus4 like. apt-get install gnome-commander, or use synaptic

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@KimmoK

Quote:

"I agree that going "64bit", can be done, but what do we gain, nothing?"

64 bit is not automatically faster or stronger but today even GFX cards have more than a GB of address space and most AmigaNG systems are still bound to a system that can't address more than 2GB.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 09-Apr-2018 at 09:38 PM.

@Karlos

Quote:

I used Linux daily for 20 years now, I can't agree that it's hard to use.

I'm coming up on 20 years this August!

The only major difference for me is that most UIs that I have used since Amiga raise windows when left-clicked, the same behavior as macOS and Windows. I have gotten used to this. There are some use cases where it is nice *not* to raise the window, but I can work around this without much difficulty.

Last edited by bison on 10-Apr-2018 at 12:17 AM.

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@billt

WWW security.
A lot attacks are happening using Javascript, or even HTML attacks steeling "cookies" this attacks works on any platform and on any web browser. SSL or not, badly coded web page and evil dude it all it talks. And no one is safe. Your credit-card details might stole from any web-page you use, that require this kind of thing. Web-page security, is problem because a lot of web pages on the www is made by amateur.

LAN security:

Then there is attack from the outside, trying to get into your computer, by open doors in FTP, HTTP, Other services you might running. Then general problem of clear text communication no SSL and stuff like that.

We are as safe as any-other platform here, the servers we use are ported from Linux, if they are broken, they most likely broken on Linux too.

Security on your computer:
Evil program you install. This big problem on any platform, because most programs require admin right when you install the programs. This also includes drivers and stuff like that. Any OS has this problem.

Even if the program don't need admin right it can have access to your local users config files, or temp files, or other application files. security is not as good as you might think in Windows and Linux. (this includes browser history, cookies, meta data, password managers)

Then the is security of being able have private files in household, maybe you wont your kids to more restricted access to the internet then you have. Maybe you files you like prevent important stuff to be deleted by your kids, this here where most OS have advantage over AmigaOS.

This can be done by external Proxy servers and forcing every one use the proxy server, by preventing access to router by locking to Mac address.

On the other points, most OS have same problems as we do, except they have anti-virus software we don't.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Apr-2018 at 10:56 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Apr-2018 at 10:53 PM.

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@KimmoK

My priority list would be:
-Multicore
-Virtualization
-memory protection
-64bit

-Virtualization

Way virtualization because it provides abstraction, this allows you do stuff you normally can't do. For example isolating parts of the OS, only some commutation be allowed by isolated blocks, so imagine you won't run badly written program, and you wont to have limited access to OS, to prevent it from trashing everything and eating all the RAM and all that. This how you do it.

-64bit

The problem here is that OS is 32bit, all pointer in all the structs are all 32bit, so as soon as you trying to do 64bit no long have compatible API, or you be limited by already defined structs. It really hard to mix 32bit and 64bit code, I don't think they can do that in AROS 64bit, so too me breaks too many things… But with vitalization, memory mapping it be possible, but it you can't do it without proper Virtualization.

-memory protection

You can't do this without proper virtualization of the OS, you need to iso late different part of OS from etch other and again, you need virtualization to do it.

Current memory protection is OS, find and fix bugs, for security there is like 1000 other thing to think about that is maybe even more important, see how easy other operating system are hacked that have memory protection. Your fool if think it make your OS hacker safe.

Multicore can already be done without huge investment in virtualization, memory protection or any of the other stuff, there for it most logical thing to do, first.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:30 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:19 PM.

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@bison

Quote:

As an aside, I wonder why macOS is often sited as an exemplar of ease-of-use when its Unix user-land is no easier or more difficult than Linux's GNU user-land.

In principle, I agree. It's worse if you're a developer because Apple has been one of the sloppiest companies when it comes to offering development tools, if not the most malicious. Carbon, Java support... you fools, you expected long-term support? heck, at one point they switched from gcc to clang and in their infinite wisdom distributed a broken compiler (clang compiler with gcc libraries).

BUT...

The average macOS user never really goes into that area of the system. Apple's done a pretty good job of creating a very simple interface that does quickly something like 95% of the tasks that 95% of its users want, and Apple markets big-time to those users, the self-anointed "creatives" who often enough look down on the same engineers who make their shiny tools.

You can't do that on Linux. You can't just install Adobe Lightroom and expect it to work, in part because there is no Lightroom for Linux, and in part because the alternatives (RawTherapee, DarkTable, etc.) just aren't quite the same. You have to deal with software installation, figure out how to catalog your photos on your own, and so forth.

So if you want to develop photos, video, graphic design, etc. then Apple provides you with a very good platform that comes pre-calibrated for those precise tasks. They always have the shiniest technology, lately coming out at the sort of price that requires a second mortgage, but still pretty darn shiny. They pioneered the cloud service and a bunch of other things. For professional who just want to, say, hook up their cameras to the computer, import the photos into Adobe Lightroom, and get beautiful results quickly, everything I read on photography websites is that Apple lets you do it easily and quickly.

_________________
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@simplex

Quote:

heck, at one point they switched from gcc to clang and in their infinite wisdom distributed a broken compiler (clang compiler with gcc libraries).

Yeah, I remember that. I was using a Mac at work at the time (after management confiscated my SPARCstation) and did an OS upgrade (I don't remember the versions) and it silently and without my consent uninstalled gcc and replaced it with a symlink to Clang! I wasn't able to reverse the upgrade, and ended up with a bunch of stuff that wouldn't compile.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@outrun1978

Quote:

Trust me 5 minutes with Linux makes you appreciate how simple Amiga OS is to use, at least on the Amiga I can download multiple files at the same time or copy across multiple files into different drives all at the same time and it doesn’t really impact on the system resource too much

I can bet Kolla is using Linux on regular basis and know how simple or complex it is.

Quote:

Multitasking isn’t Linux’s forte and what is even more annoying in Linux is the need to enter in your password for the most mundane of tasks like copy one file across one drive to another.

You must have been using something different than I did. Are you sure you're talking about linux? ;)

@michalsc

am actually using Debian 9 on the X5000. I can't even transfer files stored from my linux hard drive to an external Flash drive without having to enter in a sudo password first. Its the simple things like this that make Linux infuriating particularly for new users and not every user is adept at terminal commands either which is sadly what many on these forums always fail to take into account

_________________
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@OlafS25

Quote:

he thread reminds me of the movie "Groundhog Day"

Nice movie!

_________________
retired

@outrun1978

Quote:

am actually using Debian 9 on the X5000. I can't even transfer files stored from my linux hard drive to an external Flash drive without having to enter in a sudo password first.

Your mistake is to use a distribution which is not meant for novice users (Debian). There are plenty other linux distributions, some of them based on Debian to some degree, which are much more user friendly. It is not linux (or linux distribution) fault if they are not available for X5000.

Quote:

outrun1978 wrote: am actually using Debian 9 on the X5000. I can't even transfer files stored from my linux hard drive to an external Flash drive without having to enter in a sudo password first. Its the simple things like this that make Linux infuriating particularly for new users and not every user is adept at terminal commands either which is sadly what many on these forums always fail to take into account

So please choose the right option here:

1. Debian 9 for X5000 simply sucks.

2. Your Linux skills simply suck.

3. Both/a mix of the above.

Frankly speaking, Linux is as user friendly as the others, the only difference is that Linux chooses his friends carefully. You have to learn some basic concepts BEFORE approaching to ANY Linux distribution, as like as you have to learn some basic concepts for Windows and Amiga too, before you can use them flawlessly. You need to enter your sudoer password in Linux when copying to a flash drive because - I may bet on it - your user hasn't proper grants on the directory where your flash drive is mounted on. Fix this, and you'll forget the issue.

Linux seem a monster beast at the beginning, but once you master principles like "everything is a file", "group/user permissions" and "I really should care about learning to use bash", you'll notice it's incredibly smart and you can always apply the same approach to EVERYTHING, performing any activity successfully. I've been a power user of Linux many years ago (1996-2001 era), then I restarted using Windows for work and I almost forgot everything, but I sincerely miss the coherency Linux had.

@michalsc

Quote:

Your mistake is to use a distribution which is not meant for novice users (Debian). There are plenty other linux distributions, some of them based on Debian to some degree, which are much more user friendly. It is not linux (or linux distribution) fault if they are not available for X5000.

My novice user oriented distribution had been Slackware. Should I suggest it to him?

It was the best novice oritented distribution available at the time, since it forced me to read a lot, learn a lot, try a lot. But satisfaction, even for "this should be automatc!" tasks like making the kernel support my audio card, was priceless.

@KarlosQuote:

I used Linux daily for 20 years now, I can't agree that it's hard to use. In fact, I tend to use it a lot like I used the Amiga, with a couple of terminals always to hand.

This is how you change mouse sensitivity on Linux.
https://askubuntu.com/a/208230

That's when I removed my Linux partition from my PC in disgust. Now I do manage a few Linux servers at work, and I also have two Raspberry Pi 3's at home (one for emulation, one as a "Home server"). Of course my NAS and my Android phone also run derivatives of Linux.
It's a great OS, but as a desktop OS, it's still way too idiosyncratic.

Last edited by AdvancedFollower on 10-Apr-2018 at 11:53 AM.

@paolone

My Linux skills probably do suck thanks for the insult and wont improve until i decide to spend sufficient time using Linux over AmigaOS, but the reality is (and as a power user which you describe yourself as, you won't realise or appreciate this) it is an incredibly steep and alien learning curve for many average Amiga users and it is something that puts off many bar a few hardcore computer user.

But as an average user who mainly plays games, does a bit of internet browsing/streaming and general computer tasks, shouldn't it tell you something that despite me having have a Linux distribution installed on my X5000 (and yes I did try Ubuntu, but i find Debian runs quicker on the X5000), i choose to spend 99% of my time using AmigaOS?

_________________
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Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

First of all thanks to Amigablitter for always being there with the right questions.

Unfortunately when one thinks about a certain "core" that blocks development those arguments which doesn't care about where you come from and where you are going soon surface.

1. The Amiga past as far as providing the basic core structure isn't tied to one single form of computing since it was born in another age. It doesn't mean that compatibility with that core isn't important or that there aren't some basic core logic and mathematics that can continue to define what Amiga is even when the technological core seems to hold it back. Sometimes what blocks you is what you carry with you and sometimes it's your inability to sparate what matters in that core stucture from what doesn't matter and so better understand what you are.

2. Recently I installed win10 because they decided that 8.1 is no longer seriously supported (no new drivers) like it was some ancient os so they forced my hand. If this is our supposed future and if win10 is the suppsed progress over current AmigaOS forms then no thanks. Where are we going isn't a q that you can summarize in a cpu architecture of sorts seeing as the pc basis of computing is pretty much a mirage of peeps caught in the same world which the Amiga was born into and somehow tend to ignore the fact that consoles and phones and various smart devices and streamers rule this land or that a certain os can rule what's left of the pc simply because it's there and it what everybody (who haven't moved on...) uses.


@outrun1978

When I got the X1k I dove into Linux and spent countless hours familiarizing myself with it. Linux is like a tank - the q is why do you need a tank?

The difference between the Amiga and Linux is that Amiga has never given up on some comupting and education principles while providing something which put the users in mind and didn't force the issue too much and not those who spend their days memorising commands. The result - mere users like me and you could become procifient with it and become better users to such an extent we could provide support on other platforms based on logic and even write some emulation guides.

In Linux you have here a group or members of a closed club telling you you're not good enough (and try to do the same in Amigaland). About a year ago I became very able in shaping my Linux distro until I had enough of its botttomless pit. You can't pay me to return to that abyss and I'm using an outdated Lubuntu on the X1k simply because I haven't got the will to go back and learn it again. That's another point - with Amiga it sticks, with Linux it's based on remembering console commands or becoming sort of a technical guru against your better wishes (who still can't figure out the Linux video and audio apparatus).

Last edited by Srtest on 10-Apr-2018 at 03:23 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 10-Apr-2018 at 02:07 PM.

@Signal

Quote:

Reboot

No need to reboot

Evert

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