@Trixie

Lol.

@agami

Quote:

In this regard A-EON, Hyperion, and the MorphOS team are no different. They maintain a PowerPC stance because of the commercial gravity pulling in the direction of existing/completed OS work and developed apps. When it costs them more to maintain PowerPC then to switch away, then the commercially sensible thing to do will be to switch away. Which is kind of where we find ourselves today, it's just that it's happening in Amiga slow motion.

Except here there is one big difference. By the time Apple were dropping PPC they had already dropped MacOS. They dumped MacOS in 2001 and replaced it with OSX. To compare with Apple, the Amiga world with OS4 and MorphOS are still running MacOS Classic PPC. To logically follow in Apples foot steps, since anything Amiga has been living under Macs shadow since last century, they need to replace the OS with UNIX. Once they replace the core of what is left of the Amiga, for any practical use, the OS, they can then move off PPC. They could even replace AmigaOS with Windows, since most Amigas users use Windows these days. Why most Amiga user don't use macOS is lost on me, since macOS is more Amiga like than Windows ever was, and runs on those cheaper Intel CPUs.

@Hypex

In my view you see that wrong. People that pay premium prices for old accelerators or other cards are more like oldtimer fans who pay lots of money for old original parts to repair the old car. It is not really rational.

You have different groups today:
emulator users
NG users
fans of old original hardware
people also interested in better classic hardware (FPGA like V4 or PiStorm)

Many are a mixture of that

@Trixie

Quote:

If this is what you believe OS4 software boils down to, it's you that have not been updated for years apparently.

You're both wrong. Anything OS4 is a dead end. The subject of this thread pretty much highlights that - outdated hardware, years late, produced in maybe just barely triple digit numbers, maybe not even going to be available this year - or perhaps not ever. All the rest dying PPC systems 10+ years old hanging on by the teeth. Maybe run OS4 under emulation if you're a masochist. Nobody is getting anything of interest done on OS4 except personal satisfaction, truly the most masturbatory OS ever created.

@V8

Quote:

If he could have gotten it out in 2016/17 he would probably have been able to sell a thousand units and thus the cost per unit could be low. Right now I doubt he will even sell a hundred units and the price reflects that.

I'd say the high price is why they'll struggle to sell it and not the other way round.

@all

Regarding OS4 software, Trixie has named some of the audio programs.

IMHO, Rave is a really good program developed by Trixie.

IMHO, SketchBlock is another really good program and developer Andy Broad uses it to create a Christmas card each year which he shares on the Amiga websites.


redfox

Cool, I didn't know Trixie developed an audio program.

If OS4 is much different with software offerings than a few years ago, like Trixie eluded to, I would certainly like to hear about it (perhaps in a new thread :)), as I said to me software is where it's at.

Watching the videos of Amiwest, it appeared to me that OS4 was pretty much the same as it has been for many years and the only action was in the classic stuff.

Last edited by Matt3k on 14-Nov-2023 at 01:21 AM.

@AmiRich

Quote:

You're both wrong. Anything OS4 is a dead end. The subject of this thread pretty much highlights that - outdated hardware, years late, produced in maybe just barely triple digit numbers, maybe not even going to be available this year - or perhaps not ever. All the rest dying PPC systems 10+ years old hanging on by the teeth. Maybe run OS4 under emulation if you're a masochist. Nobody is getting anything of interest done on OS4 except personal satisfaction, truly the most masturbatory OS ever created.

Watch out, you're being rational and using facts on an Amiga forum. Pitchforks and bonfires await you.

@AmiRich

Quote:

AmiRich wrote: @Trixie [regarding AmigaOS 4] truly the most masturbatory OS ever created.

I nominate this line for the "Best line on AW.net in 2023" award.

They should print this as a quote on the box. Couldn't hurt.

Last edited by agami on 14-Nov-2023 at 12:14 AM.
Last edited by agami on 14-Nov-2023 at 12:13 AM.

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@agami

This screenshot is now my new screen pic in my 2023 Jeep Wrangler.

Last edited by Amiga4000 on 14-Nov-2023 at 01:40 AM.

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@Hypex

You appear to be upset or mildly confused that Amigans don't like comparing apples to oranges.

Why should we like comparing an extant retail system to an abandoned retro system? Apart from both systems being able to run software written for the 68k line of Amiga computers produced initially by Commodore and later Amiga Technologies, their commonalities quickly diminish in other aspects.

All contemporary/extant retail systems should only be compared with other contemporary/extant retail systems within a set, e.g. A-EON's A1222+ vs. Apollo V4 SA, or AmigaOS 4 vs. MorphOS, or even A-EON's A1222+ vs. Apple Mac mini, and AmigaOS 4 vs. Windows 11 as they too are representatives of an extant retail set).

Commodore Amigas, and to a slightly lesser degree Amiga Technologies Amigas, have reached rare classic status and can now go for prices approaching and in some cases exceeding what those systems costed when they were initially released (adjusted for inflation), so it's extra disingenuous to compare any offering today with a classic computer market, irrespective of the fact that there is new add-on hardware and updated operating systems for these classic systems.

Furthermore, it is also disingenuous to compare purchasing decisions of a person in the earlier stages of their life, to purchasing decisions in later stages of their life. Just because I was willing to throw what little money I had in my 20s at expanding my A1200 with hw and sw, does not mean it is equally acceptable that I do so 30 years later, irrespective of the fact that I have more money to spend.
I also have more responsibilities and my value expectations as a consumer have also shifted dramatically in those years:

An A1200HD with extra 8MB RAM and 68882 FPU for $1,898 AUD at the end of 1992 was an acceptable value proposition for me back then. But that does not mean I am prepared to spend $4,035.33 (AUD) on a personal computer today (based on inflation calculator).
The trend of reducing costs of computing technologies while increasing performance means that over the 30 years most people have arrived to a place where they expect to have an above average personal computing experience from hw and sw that costs bellow $2,000 AUD in today's money.

It'd be like me stating how some shitty airline's economy return ticket Melbourne - Sydney at $400 is tolerable because it actually cost me more to fly the same route with Anset in 1992.

Last edited by agami on 14-Nov-2023 at 07:07 AM.

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@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @agami Except here there is one big difference. By the time Apple were dropping PPC they had already dropped MacOS. They dumped MacOS in 2001 and replaced it with OSX...

Not a big difference at all.

I'm talking about the why and when. The triggering conditions.
You're talking about the how.

Sure, if we wanted to more closely mirror Apple's journey, then the best "how" would be via a completely new OS which would be better suited to such transitions. But it is equally doable by porting the existing operating systems, because we're not courting Adobe.

Best thing for apps is to be recompiled because the OS teams don't have the kind of muscle needed to implement a Rosetta-like PPC emulation sub-system. Also providing such a sub-system would mean those apps would likely never get ported. In the case of AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS, it's better to burn the proverbial ships upon reaching the new world.

Like that old de-clutter trick when moving house. Leave everything in boxes and only unpack as the need arises. If a year later there are things still in boxes, then out they go (garage sale, Ebay, goodwill, landfill).

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@agami

what I see here is usuall anti ppc propaganda.
it is big difference what apple do compared to what morons attacking ppc whant us to do.
apple first switch to ppc, then switch to unix,
when have memory protection and unix compatibility switch to other cpu.
slowly moving step by step.
all what apple do was evolution not revolution.
every step take years. developers has time to take new step.
1994 first mac ppc
1997 first mac os 7.6 fully working on ppc
1999 mac os 9 with carbon apps
2001 mac os x
2005 x86
mos and amiga os 4 is something like mac os 9.
still classic but meny times better.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 14-Nov-2023 at 07:32 AM.

@ferrels

no amirich is not rational.
amirich waste time for nothing attacking ppc.
amirich should sod off from ppc
and spend time wasted on attack on ppc
to get aros to at least xp level.

@agami

amiga ppc/ng is real amiga as true as these made by commodore.
only better than these made by commodore after 1990 because thousand times faster.

1600 euro I expect lower price.
amiga 1222 should be compared to amiga 1200 with real cpu.
1600 euro is still less than a1200 with real 040 mmu fpu 2d 3d.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @agami what I see here is usuall anti ppc propaganda.

So you caught on to it? Good, because for a moment there I was worried I was being too subtle

Quote:

it is big difference what apple do compared to what morons attacking ppc whant us to do.

It’s not a big difference. Not a big difference at all.
Apple’s specific timing and cadence of evolution steps is not a rule. Which is to say that it is not the only way to make those transitions.
Apple spent 11 years on PPC. AmigaOS 4 spent 22 years (double) on PPC. What’s Hyperion’s excuse?

Quote:

mos and amiga os 4 is something like mac os 9. still classic but meny times better.

Easy there. MorphOS can be compared to MacOS 9, but AmigaOS 4 doesn’t yet run on a laptop.

The fact is, AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS should’ve moved to x86 5-10 years ago.
Even with today’s high performance ARM hardware, x86 is still a good target for porting either or both of these NG operating systems.

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@agami

Quote:

The fact is, AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS should’ve moved to x86 5-10 years ago.

How sweet would be MorphoOS on a pico board? Or in a more 'powerful' machine like raspberry pi? All machines that fill the Amiga ethos IMO. what would be the problem of an Amiga actually working as a keyboard using a pistorm if MorphOS/AmigaOS was at the driving wheel?

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pixie Quote:

How sweet would be MorphoOS on a pico board? Or in a more 'powerful' machine like raspberry pi? All machines that fill the Amiga ethos IMO. what would be the problem of an Amiga actually working as a keyboard using a pistorm if MorphOS/AmigaOS was at the driving wheel?

Pico board? As in Raspberry Pi Pico board with 264kiB of on chip SRAM, 2MiB of on board flash memory and no video output? Do you mean RPi Zero instead which is or at least was only $1 USD more?

https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/raspberry-pi-pico.html

The original 68k AmigaOS probably could have run on the RPi Pico board spec by using kickstart from flash memory. The Cortex M0+ Thumb ISA has a little better code density than the Amiga 1000 68000 ISA and similar code density to the 68020 ISA (ARM Thumb was licensed from Hitachi SuperH which was heavily influenced by the 68000 which they licensed from Motorola). The 2MiB flash needs to hold the kickstart as well as any programs though. Not many Amiga programs would be usable with this amount of memory and lack of video output would reduce the amount of useful Amiga software practically to zero which wouldn't be so "sweet". Scale the spec up a little and starting around 512kiB of SRAM and with video output a 68k AmigaOS starts to become usable as a microcontroller (some applications would disconnect the video but it would still be useful for setup and debugging). MorphOS scales down to 128MiB and maybe 64MiB of memory but that is on fat PPC. Using Thumb and ditching the MMU is still going to be challenging to scale down anywhere close to the 68k AmigaOS spec and the big advantage of the 68k AmigaOS software is lost. Forget about 68k emulation on a microcontroller at anything close to the Pico board spec. The RPi Zero was only $5 and that spec is higher than any 68k Amiga hardware including FPGA Amiga hardware. The RPi Zero SoC may not be categorized as a microcontroller but it is extremely popular for the embedded and hobbyist markets, more so that the Pico. The Video output is useful and 512MiB of memory allows a stripped down Linux OS often using command line interface only. It would be nice to have an OS that could comfortably use a GUI in 512MiB of memory and has a large existing software library. MorphOS likely could scale down to use a low enough amount of memory but a switch to ARM requires a recompile of all PPC software and a 68k emulator uses additional valuable resources. The 68k AmigaOS avoids these issues and provides a much larger software library.

@matthey

Yes you're right, more in line with RPI zero. But they are all so small and dandy!
Quote:

The 68k AmigaOS avoids these issues and provides a much larger software library.

We had Draco, perhaps if emu68 could be used with such a port of AmigaOS or perhaps ApolloOS, Aros is a bit slow on the graphic side, on x86 obviously is no issue, but on such a slow system it needs all the speed available

Last edited by pixie on 15-Nov-2023 at 09:21 PM.

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